Also… we are not sure who owns all of the licenses…. There are no guarantees that all of stakeholders in the 5th film are the same as the first 3.

Give me your old discounted restored over a new remake anyday

It's a beast of a game to redo...congrats to CGC if they do it

Regarding an IJ IPA remake. There's lots of money to be made if it happens, based on IJ TPA aftermarket sales. That's pretty solid reasoning for CGC looking into a remake.

Come on, that’s a cheap shot. That could happen to any manufacturer with any custom part if a subcontractor screws up.

They are struggling with Cactus Canyon… TZ is in a different league

See ford bronco roof issues. Perfect example of this

To be fair, only one Bond movie is 60 years old.

IJ for the steal! TZ is a great theme and pretty game , but a clunky shooter. IJPOTA all the way!!!

Ha! Not me, personally. I'd never say never, but part of the reason I love B/W games is because they are B/W games. Accept no substitutes.

Not a cheap shot, I'm a fan of Doug Duba and CGC in general. Just a numbers game, the number of parts in TZ and complexity exceed the prior games, so more issues can occur.

Conversation with someone I know with Ryan at CGC.

DV because you said it's overrated (I disagree) and your claim it's a grindfest (I disagree).

I've restored TZ and MB and I thought they were equally a bitch to rebuild. I hate the monster table more than anything on TZ that I can think of. So I think they can handle the build since they did MB.

What i don't get is there are 4x-15x more TZs than any other game CGC has done so far or why anyone thinks TZs rules are shallow. I think the nuances of that game would be longer than a stern rulesheet.

After I posted that, I was thinking about Monster Bash remake, agree that is a really complex game. I also think the remake is just exceptional. I'd love to see what they would do with a TZ remake, a special theme for me. But since so many TZs are available, and other games like ToTAN super expensive, that would be my preference. An updated ToTAN with more code, a topper, rgb would be amazing.

I've redone two TZ's and its actually pretty straightforward. The sub-mechanisms are not too bad including the clock and gumball machine. I actually had more time into redoing a Taxi than a TZ...those interlocking ramps would be a nightmare on an assembly line IMHO.

As for CGC struggling to CCr out, its not the pinball machine....its the topper which is a totally new device.

As a current TZ owner, if the pricing was reasonable, I would be in for a TZr. I think CGC does a great job and TZ is an epic title with a ton of appeal. To be honest with you, CGC could keep building any of these "A"-list Bally Williams titles (AFM, MB, TZ, CC) and they will most likely sell them all without issue. The demand is out there.

Yeah TZ is probably the deepest Bally/Williams game. I haven't played them all - but there is a lot to do on TZ

Interesting to hear from you guys that have taken them apart completely. I guess I'll eat my words on that and look forward to seeing a remake.

Same here, ToTAN would be my choice out of all the old Bally/Williams games to redo next. Just gotta wait and see what they do.

It just doesn't make much sense for me for all the reasons stated, unless they've decided to go all-in on the widebodies (TZ/IJ) in the next 5 years.

The prices would be well into the five figures, so they'd basically be changing their current model from selling a lot for less to selling fewer for much more.

Sure, there are "lots of TZ machines available", and even some at decent ($8-9K) prices.

But when was the last time you saw a NIB TZ available? And even if you found one, what would its price be?

And yes, you can get a "high-end" restored one that is as good as NIB, but you'll be paying big bucks for that...

As long as CGC can sell them for a reasonable price (and these days I'm not sure what that even means), they will sell as many as they want to make.

I would argue even a nicely restored TZ would blow a remake away. Doesn’t have to be a zillion HEP restoration

I think Farsight just sucked at licensing? Zen Pinball remade IJ

Why does everyone assume widebodies are so much more costly to build than standard bodies? I doubt TZ's BOM is even $500 more than CC's. Spooky is pricing a Scooby Doo widebody under $10k, and I'm sure TZr will be about the same price. $10k LE, $9k SE is a modest jump over CC prices - and a welcome option over current Stern/JJP pricing.

Depends which holes on the back the legs are bolted to.

I have mine set to 6 1/2 degrees.

LTG : )

I keep seeing similar arguments, but do all of the people with similar sentiments feel like Cactus Canyon was really a better choice with more broad appeal? TZ makes perfect sense, just like MMr, AFMr, and MBr did... Its a desirable game that sells for a lot of money. It doesn't really matter if there is a lot of them, theres more demand than the available supply. Some people just like the idea of a shiny new version of an all time classic. There is a lot going on with the game but theres really not that many items that aren't standard pinball parts such as custom sculpts (the gumball machine maybe? Seems easy to recreate compared to other things). I don't know...it makes sense to me.

They haven't done a wide body yet either but that doesn't seem to be a stretch either. Plenty easy for them to get their hands on widebody spec parts such as cabinets, lockdown bars, ect. Other companies are doing it or have done it recently.

Why would you think this? A "nicely restored" MB does not "blow away" an MBr. Sure, there are some people that "only want originals", but most everyone agrees that CGC's build quality is excellent.

And CGC's larger color displays, color-changing LEDs, and enhanced sound are distinct improvements over the originals. Yes, you could add ColorDMD and Pinsound into your original, but then you are adding even more cost to your "nicely restored" version.

Because it’s a b/w game instead of some random company that remakes games.

Yeah... although there is a lot of smoke on this one. It is a bit of a head scratcher.

Not totally random. CGC did make TZ playfields and cabinets for Williams.

LTG : )

Yeah, it's not a scary word. It's just another CAD file for the playfield, another for the cabinet, different size glass. You use slightly more wood.

Absolutely none of this is a big deal, or a huge expense. So long as your equipment to handle things, press to dimple, conveyer belts, whatever, aren't constrained such that they can't handle a few more inches of width there's just no difference.

It’s the same company that made the blanks. Seen CGC stamped on sides of playfields

It's not just the added cost in materials of going wide.

They may have to reconfigure their production line to accomodate widebodies. It's more R&D, plus, games like TZ and IJ are just a shitload more loaded than they stuff they've reproed already. Don't need to rehash what's been discussed for 4 pages, I just think doing IJ and TZ is a lot more complicated and expensive than the stuff they've been doing or could do, and it really would represent a real shift in their business model. I think you are dreaming if you think a "modest jump over CC prices" is what we'd see if they actually produced these games. Would be more like TS4 pricing.

It's not just the added cost of materials and production. Why would you bother with all of this if you weren't going to try to greatly improve your profit per unit?

Widebody...

- different parts to stock and inventory
- more material in the cab and pf (not huge, but not zero)
- potentially more bits in the BOM (you need to fill that space..)
- making sure all your production facilities can handle the cabinet and PF. Notice all those little dollies, roller coveyors and jigs all over the factory? Not everyone built to handle both cabinets. If you didn't, this is a significant adjustment

Biggest point is it's different.. and differences cost in production. If you are looking at returns... it's usually better to just filter out those risks.

I would think the #1 difference would be the expense to ship overseas. It could seriously change the number of pins that may fit in a container. That could hit the customer base with prices already pushing limits.

When Williams entered the widebody market in the late 70s, they built an entire new line dedicated to these games. I'm sure that wasn't cheap.

If you are willing to accept that going wide is going to incur significant expenses/investment (which not everybody is, some think it's just that the cabinet will cost a little more) it really doesn't make much sense. TZ and IJ...that's it. Are people clamoring for Roadshow and Demo Man repros?

The stamp is CCC. Churchhill Cabinet Company.

which is now CGC

I went through some weird collecting trends. At one time I collected proto type stuff. Then I collected all the Williams double level games. Next thing I collected was all the Bally/Williams DMD wide body games and that switched to having all the B/W DMD games. Out of all the B/W wide body games, I hated IJ the most followed by Roadshow. TZ lasted the longest in my collection along with STTNG.

MBr is gorgeous. I almost bought one to replace my original MB, but then I played one. If you’re used to a real one - they just feel different. I opted to keep my original, it just feels right. I had an MMr for about 7 years and enjoyed it, but I never had an original. If I get MM again, I’m going original.

So Spooky can make a brand new widebody for under $10k, but CGC can't make a remake widebody for the same price?

Not every manufacturer is stupid enough to follow JJP over the cliff...most of us passed on TS4 because of the cost alone - it's why several distribs still have TS4CEs in stock.

Not many people would buy a brand new Spooky widebody for over $10K. Scooby isn't even sold out at under $10K, which I wouldn't think relevant but I'll bring up since you've crowbarred TS4 into the discussion.

Plenty would buy a brand new TZ or IJ for over $10K.

Why bother going through all the trouble to invest in this project if you aren't going to maximize your profits?

If they are only making 1,500, do they really use an "assembly line" per se, or just have them set up in a room like spooky does. Sounds as if they aren't planning on making 15,000 + like the original run.

Fun fact, look at the top 100, and what has been remade by CGC. Seems TZ is next in line.

I personally think they should do TAF next. Even with all the units out in the wild, seems like it's never enough to meet demand. That title would kill in sales. I know I would buy one.

CCr SE is what - $8000 or little more? Not only is TZ widebody, but has upper pf, subways, 4 flippers, lots of magnets, and plenty more mech. I would be absolutely shocked if you can produce TZ for less than $10000. Even a basic Stern pro is now $7000. Maybe it can be done but what's the point if you don't make any money doing it?

But CC was ranked around #58 before the recent inflated reviews by remake buyers. The common denominator to date has been that the games had no more than a few thousand units produced originally.

Hence my comment that "some people only want originals", and that's fine. But it is not a true statement that "a restored original will blow away a NIB remake".

Some will prefer the original, others will prefer an improved (big color display, changing LEDs, etc.) remake.

As to how the two "feel", I won't claim to tell you what you feel, but to me...every original MM feels different from every other original MM, and the remakes feel well within the range of differences between them all.

Besides, I haven't played a NIB original MM in a very long time, so I can't say how that might feel nowadays.

My EBD-LE feels very different from my brother's one, even though they are both original. If EBD gets remade, odds are it will feel different from both of ours.

You brought up "TS4 pricing" - not me, so not sure how I'm "crowbarring" it into the conversation.

But you just made my point for me - "Spooky isn't even sold out at under $10k" is exactly why CGC wouldn't be stupid enough to price TZr at TS4 levels. "Plenty of people would buy a brand new TZ for over $10k" is not 1500 LEs and 1500 SEs. If they price it attractively (ie $9k SE/ $10k LE), they will sell 3k of them (or more).

CCr SE is $8k, correct. So a $9k TZr SE would make you more money per unit as the difference in CC BOM vs TZ BOM is highly likely to be less than $1k.

Errr....