Does anyone know if CGC are intending to bring MMr back in house?
(Topic ID: 188092)
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Hopkins, MN
Quoted from rubberducks:Does anyone know if CGC are intending to bring MMr back in house?
Make a bunch of AFMR, then more MMR standards, then more AFMR. All at CGC.
That's the plan.
LTG : )
Quoted from LTG:Make a bunch of AFMR, then more MMR standards, then more AFMR. All at CGC.
That's the plan.
LTG : )
Then MBRs and then CCRs and then IJRs then TOMRs then TOTANRs. 
Quoted from LTG:Make a bunch of AFMR, then more MMR standards, then more AFMR. All at CGC.
That's the plan.
LTG : )
Assume production has been suspended on MMr for quite some while then, as AFAIK Stern hasn't made any since the middle of last year.
Will be curious to see how the in-house ones compare in build quality.
Is pricing likely to be brought more in line with AFMr now that they don't have to pay Stern?
Sydney
Quoted from iwantansi:I dont see a microwave wall like Stern has. Are there plans for a microwave bank?
LOL. Good call. I'm not sure I can take any pinball manufacturer seriously without one. In fact I'd go so far as to say this may be the real reason other manufacturers are struggling. "Making pinball is hard...." they say. "Making pinball without a wall of microwaves is impossible" is what they should be saying.
Calgary, AB
Quoted from CGC_DougS:Very much appreciate the nice comments. We are super busy at CGC and I don't have a lot of time to spend on Pinside, but will promise to continue to share information when it is meaningful. In fact, I hope to deliver some new news within the next few days.
I know you are busy but really looking forward to "new news". Anything news to deliver yet?
Quoted from LTG:Make a bunch of AFMR, then more MMR standards, then more AFMR. All at CGC.
That's the plan.
LTG : )
Any news if they will make MMR with the larger display?
Quoted from arcademojo:Any news if they will make MMR with the larger display?
Rick posted on the MMR forum that CGC is looking into it. Some software, cable, and display. No idea when, but it seems to be in the works.
LTG : )
Quoted from rubberducks:Is pricing likely to be brought more in line with AFMr now that they don't have to pay Stern?
As nice as that would be for those of us still looking to buy a MMR, I can't imagine that would go over well with existing MMR owners and distributors with current stock.
I'm in early on this, so hopefully I'm in the first wave before they go back to MMR. I need me some AFM!
Quoted from pumpkinlad:As nice as that would be for those of us still looking to buy a MMR, I can't imagine that would go over well with existing MMR owners and distributors with current stock.
I don't see why. Some of them will have had an MMr for at least 2 and a half years by the time any further production begins at CGC ... and closing on 3 years seems like substantial enough time for model revision / pricing change en lieu of scale and not having to pay a CM. Last run of Stern build ones was a while ago, too.
Quoted from rubberducks:I don't see why. Some of them will have had an MMr for at least 2 and a half years by the time any further production begins at CGC ... and closing on 3 years seems like substantial enough time for model revision / pricing change en lieu of scale and not having to pay a CM. Last run of Stern build ones was a while ago, too.
MMR won't drop in price, costs more to build 250 or 500 at a time than 1000
Same happened with woz 75th games went up in price.
Quoted from Ballypinball:MMR won't drop in price, costs more to build 250 or 500 at a time than 1000
Same happened with woz 75th games went up in price.
If a revision comes out with the larger screen and better than Stern build quality / QC, I expect they'll sell more than 1000 without too much difficulty.
Quoted from rubberducks:If a revision comes out with the larger screen and better than Stern build quality / QC, I expect they'll sell more than 1000 without too much difficulty.
Yes and that option will be more expensive, MM is a much more expensive game to build than AFM
Quoted from rubberducks:I don't see why. Some of them will have had an MMr for at least 2 and a half years by the time any further production begins at CGC ... and closing on 3 years seems like substantial enough time for model revision / pricing change en lieu of scale and not having to pay a CM. Last run of Stern build ones was a while ago, too.
Why would anyone drop the price of something that is selling well and compared to originals is not over priced. That's just bad business. You want it to have better build quality, a large screen, and for them to reduce the price. Why not just ask for them to give you one?
Quoted from jgentry:Why would anyone drop the price of something that is selling well and compared to originals is not over priced. That's just bad business. You want it to have better build quality, a large screen, and for them to reduce the price. Why not just ask for them to give you one?
You don't think Stern were doing it at zero margin, do you? Plus, economies of scale. Both of you seem to be forgetting that the majority of parts are common to both AFM and MM. Larger parts orders = lower costs.
MM, still after MMr, is pretty scarce relative to demand, hence the (back to) obscene used prices. If CGC can make MMr as attractive to purchase as AFMr (whether by price, features, quality or all three), then they can sell just as many new ones as AFMr. Indeed, original MMs are now much more expensive than original AFMs generally, after the temporary dip when the market reacted to MMr.
Quoted from rubberducks:You don't think Stern were doing it at zero margin, do you?
You don't think it was free for CGC to setup a production line, hire staff, and relearn how to build these things do you? They completely restructured their warehouse for this. That was probably free, right? It's going to be slow costly process for CGC to start making games again. Stern is certainly going to be much faster and more efficient at building games then CGC probably will ever be. Your argument makes no sense other then you want one cheaper. The market has already set the price of MMr and it's not coming down. You can't even find a used one at a bargain price, which means they are still in high demand.
Quoted from jgentry:You don't think it was free for CGC to setup a production line, hire staff, and relearn how to build these things do you? They completely restructured their warehouse for this. That was probably free, right? It's going to be slow costly process for CGC to start making games again. Stern is certainly going to be much faster and more efficient at building games then CGC probably will ever be. Your argument makes no sense other then you want one cheaper. The market has already set the price of MMr and it's not coming down. You can't even find a used one at a bargain price, which means they are still in high demand.
Except if the costs were so mammoth as you seem to be suggesting, then AFMr would be more expensive than MMr. Except, it's significantly cheaper. The game specific parts and mechs might be more costly in stock MMr, but they certainly won't be compared to the stuff in the AFMr LE, but they're a small part of the overal cost anyway.
Part of the cost of MMr initially was almost certainly the need to amortise much of the cost of their new system's development (which AFMr shares).
Also, CGC make amusement and arcade machines already ... and their parent, Churchill, makes the pfs and cabinets anyway. This wasn't setting up from scratch.
Further, you are right that the market has set the used price of MM and MMr ... but you don't seem to understand the concept of scarcity. MMr was produced very slowly, and there has been no production of them for a long time. If CGC produce their machines much more quickly than Stern - which wouldn't be hard given how slowly they trickled out - then there won't be such a huge shortfall in supply.
Quoted from rubberducks:Further, you are right that the market has set the used price of MM and MMr ... but you don't seem to understand the concept of scarcity. MMr was produced very slowly, and there has been no production of them for a long time. If CGC produce their machines much more quickly than Stern - which wouldn't be hard given how slowly they trickled out - then there won't be such a huge shortfall in supply.
Please go back and see every other company that has tried to enter the pinball production market and see how fast and smoothly it has went.
Quoted from Ballypinball:Yes and maybe the GBP will be stronger than the US dollar next year
$1,000 flights to mars by years end
Its a good dream
I agree, it is a good dream. We'd all like a 6K MMr that costs the same amount for everyone no matter where you live.
Quoted from rubberducks:I don't see why. Some of them will have had an MMr for at least 2 and a half years by the time any further production begins at CGC ... and closing on 3 years seems like substantial enough time for model revision / pricing change en lieu of scale and not having to pay a CM. Last run of Stern build ones was a while ago, too.
I would love to see them drop MMr to 6500. I would buy one. I do not see this happening however...
Quoted from jgentry:Please go back and see every other company that has tried to enter the pinball production market and see how fast and smoothly it has went.
Spooky have been pretty fast and smooth, and they'd never done anything like it before and started completely from scratch, on a seemingly limited budget. New entrants don't have to be a shit show, though they generally have been.
CGC / Churchill have been producing and supplying major pinball parts for decades, and arcade cabinets and amusement machines for years.
Quoted from Syco54645:I would love to see them drop MMr to 6500. I would buy one. I do not see this happening however...
Quoted from JonH123:I don't see a price drop happening on MMR. The bill of materials is higher than AFMR and the original MM commands a much higher price than AFM in the used market.
They are leaving money on the table then.
Quoted from Syco54645:They are leaving money on the table then.
Hopefully i'm wrong. I would like lower prices.
Maybe Stern will rethink their higher price structure with increased competition at lower price points.
Quoted from JonH123:Hopefully i'm wrong. I would like lower prices.
Maybe Stern will rethink their higher price structure with increased competition at lower price points.
Well if CGC can do 1 classic game a year at the $6500 (or less) price point I think they will have to. Granted AFM has about the features of a Stern pro so perhaps the price is a bit high but it is a proven classic and people will pay a bit extra for that.
London
Quoted from rubberducks:Assume production has been suspended on MMr for quite some while then, as AFAIK Stern hasn't made any since the middle of last year.
Will be curious to see how the in-house ones compare in build quality.
Is pricing likely to be brought more in line with AFMr now that they don't have to pay Stern?
they had them on the line in the last two months ref their facebook factory videos.
Quoted from Arcade:No meaningful info in a week?
It may be a bit. FWIW, go check the PPS forum for their history of updates... it's typically not a week. 
Hi CGC_DougS. Was just curious how things have been going regarding AFM since your last check in.
I can imagine you are all super busy but what do you think about the idea of sharing small updates with us maybe once per week (maybe Fridays or Mondays so that your normal week isn't interupted)? It would be fun to be connected with CGC in some way throughout the process.
Quoted from stpcore:Hi CGC_DougS. Was just curious how things have been going regarding AFM since your last check in.
I can imagine you are all super busy but what do you think about the idea of sharing small updates with us maybe once per week (maybe Fridays or Mondays so that your normal week isn't intetupted)? It would be fun to be connected with CGC in some way throughout the process.
And please let us know that you are applying factory mylar between the pop bumpers and in the ball drop areas...
(eagerly holding my breath...)
Hi Everyone:
If all we did was produce pinballs, it might be so much easier. However, many of you know that this building still produces a lot of cabinetry and other wood products for the professional coin-op amusement industry as well as a complete line of other products that we sell under the CGC name. Yes, we are super busy at Chicago Gaming and forgive me if I only get to Pinside on occasion. Here is a bullet point update and some news surrounding CGC:
• In addition to starting the production of Attack From Mars, we are also are putting the final touches on our new assembly line. Yes, we are still on course to start shipping pinballs in May. At first it will be slow, but we hope to get up to 15 games per day within a few short weeks. This line will run 6 days a week.
• The first quantity of games off the line are going to be AFM Special Editions. These games will be shipped to our dealers worldwide for the purpose of pinball festivals, trade-shows, and display models. After that our focus will turn to producing Limited Editions.
• Yes, there is still a lot of demand for MMR. In fact, we have orders for nearly 500 games standing at this point. It is our plan to build the first 500 AFM pins and then break to make the next run of 500 MMR’s. Following the MMR’s it will be back to AFM.
• As many of you know, the original artist, Doug Watson, was involved with the design of the LE topper. He hand sculptured the new Martian out of clay, provided the city background artwork, and prepared some conceptual drawings. CGC did the remaining engineering work. What you don’t know is that Doug Watson was also involved in creating some playfield back panel artwork as well. I am not going show any images of this, because I want to keep you all in suspense. However, it will be installed on the very first machine out of our building. I know you’re going to love it.
• Yes, even the very first AFM will be shipped with the mylar and metal hole guards installed.
• For the past few weeks, we have had the first AFM put on location in Chicago, Logan Arcade. With the exception of one coil issue, the game has been playing flawlessly. This is the same prototype pin that appeared at the TPF and the Amusement Expo in Dallas, Texas. This one game has probably already seen more play than most pins will ever encounter in a life time in someone’s home.
• I promise to post more pictures and information as the first games are being boxed.
Thank you for all of your enthusiasm.
Doug Skor
Quoted from CGC_DougS:Hi Everyone:
If all we did was produce pinballs, it might be so much easier. However, many of you know that this building still produces a lot of cabinetry and other wood products for the professional coin-op amusement industry as well as a complete line of other products that we sell under the CGC name. Yes, we are super busy at Chicago Gaming and forgive me if I only get to Pinside on occasion. Here is a bullet point update and some news surrounding CGC
Further proof that stopping in and a nice update for everyone will go a LONG way in the long run for a company. Thanks for taking the time for a good update!
Thanks for the update Doug. Since your here, I'm going to ask a question from earlier. Is there any plan to add an option for dimming or shutting off the backbox lights during strobe mutliball (sort of like the blackout mod)? This would be a nice feature to add as a simple software enhancement.
Quoted from CGC_DougS:Hi Everyone:
If all we did was produce pinballs, it might be so much easier. However, many of you know that this building still produces a lot of cabinetry and other wood products for the professional coin-op amusement industry as well as a complete line of other products that we sell under the CGC name. Yes, we are super busy at Chicago Gaming and forgive me if I only get to Pinside on occasion. Here is a bullet point update and some news surrounding CGC:
• In addition to starting the production of Attack From Mars, we are also are putting the final touches on our new assembly line. Yes, we are still on course to start shipping pinballs in May. At first is will be slow, but we hope to get up to 15 games per day within a few short weeks. This line will run 6 days a week.
• The first quantity of games off the line are going to be AFM Special Editions. These games will be shipped to our dealers worldwide for the purpose of pinball festivals, trade-shows, and display models. After that our focus will turn to producing Limited Editions.
• Yes, there is still a lot of demand for MMR. In fact, we have orders for nearly 500 games standing at this point. It is our plan to build the first 500 AFM pins and then break to make the next run of 500 MMR’s. Following the MMR’s it will be back to AFM.
• As many of you know, the original artist, Doug Watson, was involved with the design of the LE topper. He hand sculptured the new Martian out of clay, provided the city background artwork, and prepared some conceptual drawings. CGC did the remaining engineering work. What you don’t know is that Doug Watson was also involved in creating some playfield back panel artwork as well. I am not going show any images of this, because I want to keep you all in suspense. However, it will be installed on the very first machine out of our building. I know you’re going to love it.
• Yes, even the very first AFM will be shipped with the mylar and metal hole guards installed.
• For the past few weeks, we have had the first AFM put on location in Chicago, Logan Arcade. With the exception of one coil issue, the game has been playing flawlessly. This is the same prototype pin that appeared at the TPF and the Amusement Expo in Dallas, Texas. This one game has probably already seen more play than most pins will ever encounter in a life time in someone’s home.
• I promise to post more pictures and information as the first games are being boxed.
Thank you for all of your enthusiasm.
Doug Skor
Find some time to help Stern with their Cabinets!
Quoted from CGC_DougS:What you don’t know is that Doug Watson was also involved in creating some playfield back panel artwork as well. I am not going show any images of this, because I want to keep you all in suspense. However, it will be installed on the very first machine out of our building. I know you’re going to love it.
This is a nice surprise. I was thinking I was going to have to purchase one since I wasn't content with the plain black, now that issue is resolved. I'm hoping this will be first game that I will not have to add any mods to.
Quoted from bigdaddy07:Thanks for the update Doug. Since your here, I'm going to ask a question from earlier. Is there any plan to add an option for dimming or shutting off the backbox lights during strobe mutliball (sort of like the blackout mod)? This would be a nice feature to add as a simple software enhancement.
Oops, we added this a few months ago to the code and may have forgotten to even mention this. Yes, you will have this option available in the settings.
Thank you for the update!
Good news about additional back panel artwork!
Question for clarification , will it be installed in all AFMr models or just LE?
Quoted from CGC_DougS:Oops, we added this a few months ago to the code and may have forgotten to even mention this. Yes, you will have this option available in the settings.
Dang, you guys are really on the ball on this one!
Is there a chance we'll see a code update for MMr? There were rumblings about it a while ago...but I haven't heard anything since. It would be great to have some audio options to make the "Castle Bosses" voices louder and there were a few bits here and there that were uncolored on the DMD.
Quoted from CGC_DougS:• Yes, even the very first AFM will be shipped with the mylar and metal hole guards installed.
Yay! Mylar AND backboard art?????? OMG you guys ROCK !
(I got my wish from the pinball fairies... and think I peed myself a little...) 
Quoted from CGC_DougS:Oops, we added this a few months ago to the code and may have forgotten to even mention this. Yes, you will have this option available in the settings.
Awesome! Thanks!!
Quoted from Concretehardt:OT: would love to see the new large display offered on MMr!
From what I understand from Rick at PPS, the whole panel will be available as a drop in replacement for many games.
But not necessarily in color unless you already have it on your MMr.
What might be way cool would be to have colorDMD and PPS work together on the new big panels.
New Hi Res art for all the popular games would be a huge endeavor, but one could dream about it...
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