Does Anyone like working with PPS? Too bad one of these manufacturers didn’t just end up with the licenses. From new custom code to remakes PPS really puts a snag in to things.

Would you buy one?

Unless you are an official spokesperson for CGC, I would avoid using terms like "CGC is making the right choice", like you are speaking on behalf of the company on decisions already made.

Hate to say, but I agree on the notion remakes may not happen for so many games after all.

ToM is still somewhat easy to find for reasonable prices. CC probably lacks the widespread appeal.

Any licensed theme is probably out. Indiana Jones would be amazing, but I can't imagine the license cost from Disney (if even approved).

Really ?First I ever heard of this.

CGC was going to build them. The initial announcement, and 1,000 sold right away. No one was prepared for that. Stern was contracted to build them. Just got up to speed and moved to the new place. Had to start over. CGC has been doing them ever since.

Pinball Sales was a distributor at the time of the announcement.

LTG : )

Because they're letting their trademarks lapse for one...

Capture (resized).PNG

I doubt it. PPS bought the IPB assets in the bankruptcy auction/or sale.

LTG : )

Well maybe CGC is just Stern's Evil Twin... Stern releases 3 game a year CGC releases 1 game every three years.

BBB is a rare game but not widely a must have for most. I only had the pleasure to play a few times about 50 plus games. The theme doesn’t appeal to me. Plus I don’t think my wife or daughters would be thrilled with pole dancers in a tube in our house.

Chat to Jack about it. I was on the phone with him the day it began to leak with CGC making on their own and not outsourcing. Yes I bought my MMr and WOZ through him at pinballsales.com and the first 1000 pre sales were instant but many dropped out over the years and spots opened up prior to release.

That is a cancelled trademark interesting find. You can see the assignment to PPS in 2014 and then the cancellation on Feb 5 2021.

I thought CGC was a redemption maker who happened to make a few pretty decent pinball remakes? Or is that oversimplifying it? They had the means and were lucky but who knows how they sit elsewise?

While I agree that the demand for MBr and AFMr are probably met (and arguably never super strong to begin with, even at original release in the 90s...), cranking out more MMr in large batches seems like the closest thing to "free" money in the pinball business.

Medieval Madness is up there in rarified air with things like Daytona USA and Ms Pac-Man / Galaga where there's evergreen demand on both the operator and home side with an entire cottage industry keeping the originals (and the various remakes/updates) going for 20+ years.

Plus correct me if I'm wrong, don't both MB and AFM have licensing issues/costs with Universal?

AFM isn't a movie license. (It has nothing to do with Mars Attacks!, if that's what you're thinking.)

That is interesting. Based on that status changed in Feb this year, PPS has shelved any plans for that remake.

Now here is a Myth... It goes along side of Free Lunch!

Correct I never think that is a issue. Just someone else to pay a little to. Ferret is there usually a license fee upfront then so much per game or is it a flat fee?

So can anybody explain the business case for not making more MMr? Everything seems to point to strong unmet demand from both operators and retail. I'd happily lay down a 4-figure deposit today if I knew more MMr runs were coming and I know I'm not alone in this...

I've heard firsthand rumblings from distributors that CGC is uncommunicative / slow / has an unknown product pipeline/timeline as an OEM and they don't like to work with them. I've also heard some rumblings on here sounding like they may be difficult on the suppler side and/or screwing over vendors somehow?

Someone should remake IJ IPA, that much is crystal clear.

I agree with Onwallst comments. It doesn't make sense to order parts, hire workers, train, etc just for a few small runs now and then. Just because a group of people vocalize they want one doesn't translate to a huge demand. If demand was really that great, CGC would be cranking them out. Since there has been nothing for years, that is pretty telling. I just don't see much excitement for these games - nothing like a new game from Stern or JJP.

I think MB left a bad taste in someones mouth... I think playfield quality issues makes the remakes harder to manufacture to the "collectors" level of quality that most are demanding. It would be one thing to be able to remake Bally/Williams machines to the same standards they made them to in the 90's, some of those machines, although built like a tank, had blemishes, scratches in the artwork, scuffs on the cabinets, ink registration issues, a stripped out screw post now and then, or parts rattling around in the bottom of the cabinet as your unboxing it. I know CGC had a LOT of quality issues on MB playfields, or at least that was the company line while I was waiting on delivery for 6 months... how many people would sign up for a new MMr Royal if it was $5000 and had some minor defects? I think manufacturers ought to offer a REAL "Pro" version that is cheaper but may have minor blemishes, scuffs and scratches, registration errors, cabinet dings, chipped paint, and with a no frills, 90 day, electronics only warranty. I think I would gladly buy two remake machines for $10k (TOM and Totan) even if they had all the "issues" people seem to hate, like pooling, chipping, busted cabinet decals, etc...

I think there are a lot of people like me who want to just play the damn things, not keep them as collector pieces...

The real question is if CGC wants to continuously have a production line in operation. So far, it seems that their business plan is to build a bunch of machines for a little while, and then go back to R&D mode and stop building machines. As opposed to Stern, who always has production line(s) running.

If CGC wanted to have a continuous line, it would make sense to build more MMr (and maybe AFM / MB) until the new machine (whatever that is) is ready for production. If they don't want a continuous line, then ordering parts for MMr would not be sensible if they are going to start building some other game soon anyway.

The part I don't understand is that right now, they have no machines to sell and no machine announced - leaving them with no revenue and no built-up demand - and it's been that way for a long time now.

Did they really plan to not have anything to sell for two years, or has this development (of whatever it is) taken a lot longer than expected?
Or perhaps the pinball side of their business is just not that important to them, and they will just eventually get-around-to-it?

I doubt anyone can make that case. CGC did reply to an email asking about MMr and they replied that the game is not in production and there is currently no runs planned. All that being said, they will almost certainly be making more.

Maybe COVID hit them harder than others?? I think when they are ready they will announce their intentions? Do I want a CC, yes, I personally like the game, if they remake it, awesome, I if not, and they start building their own games or even stop making pinball, I still applaud them for at least giving some people a chance to buy and have games that were not available to most. Have I been frustrated with no announcement, of course, but do they owe me an explanation, no, and I'm good with that.

We're not likely to find out of course, but I don't think it's a stretch to believe they had to alter plans, especially with COVID in (and still in) the last year and a half. I know my company is still feeling some pain points there and I truly believe we're in one of the least impacted industries. I think the real winner is Stern who seems to have not skipped much of a beat; having personally taken the tour at one point, those guys are packed in like sardines and not with much room to spare... so having them get back up and running in a presumably safe setting is, to say the least, operationally impressive.

Opportunity cost - Doing X means not doing Y. You have to understand which is more valuable to them or not
Avoiding market saturation - Sometimes keeping the market hungry is a good thing for values or sales cycles
Economies of Scale - You need volume to make pinball viable. So there are thresholds you must cross to make it viable.

It's incredibly hard to tell from the outside or without having the real timeframes for their next game to say what they are deciding between.

Pinball is just one product they are into.. and they haven't really increased their cadence, so that would lead you to believe they want to keep it small and steady. They've done hiring to change things for the future... but maybe they are still very cautious on their investing until the product and market are there?

It all depends on license, non compete timelines, parts and staffing. If you have no more playfields, boards and various parts you aren’t going to do a small run to manufacture those. When the royal came out they did not sell instantly as many are forgetting. Up until the 3q 2020 you could still find at a few distributors. You can still get the upgrade kits for all previous MMr. Plenty of MMr around. I don’t know of any operators that are looking for them. Most have or had them in their lineup. The game was out for 6 years. That is a long time.

You doubt the actual trademark database? I confuse.

I've been watching that mark because they stopped paying maintenance fees a while ago, so we were just waiting for the USPTO to give it a proper Christian burial.

Yeah there is nothing to doubt there. That database is a fact.

That is a typical corporate response though. It just means at this point in time they are not producing more, and companies rarely make any comments regarding future plans.

Great excuse for a price increase, but I suspect as a relatively small stateside manufacturer, they are not really utilizing the proposed-to-be-closed tax shelters and loopholes anyway.

Far more likely the price increases due to the significant increase in BOM that everyone across the board is seeing.

Well, Cactus Canyon IS coming, but what will be after that is the question. Word is CG is releasing a second game this year after CC, as is JJP.

CV would be my pick of these.

To me, the point of these remakes is giving some mid-late 90s games with shortened production runs another chance.
AFM/MM/MB are all way more popular than their production numbers would reflect. Had any of them come out into a healthier arcade scene of the sort TAF, TZ etc. enjoyed, there would have been 15K-plus made instead of a couple/few thousand.

Does anyone actually KNOW WHEN this is happening. CC was supposed to be dropping forever ago. Still nothing...

I am just eager to see if CV will be in there...

It seems with the pinball $s climbing higher every day.... Cgc missed a big wave.

(People’s vacation money in 2020 and 2021 )

Well I haven’t been here in awhile. Nothing has changed.

It’s a good thing it’s not ww2 and cgc is in charge of building Sherman tanks. We would’ve lost the war by now.

Neat, is cgc’s 2nd game this year a remake or an original?

I think the prevailing wisdom is original.

Perhaps we should see if they get one out the door this year?

great question. i gave up waiting for cc. they are going to be at 3 years this fall without a new game. i'll believe they are releasing one when i see it. if i were you, i'd get something else vs their endless game of waiting.

Among the WPC-95 games, I agree that CV seems the most desired by both players and operators with TOAN somewhat behind that. Doesn't hurt that CV is pretty to look at as an art piece too.

CC seems to have little interest outside of the "because rare and expensive" collector types, but that's just my anecdotal experience. Plus there's an intangible something about the theme on CC that makes the game feel very 90s and dated. The lack of completeness in the code doesn't help either.

For older games, there's a case to be made for the likes of Centaur or Funhouse, but would likely need a heavier mechanical and software update like Seawitch went through for the Beatles, plus a modern audio/video system like Spike 2. It would be nice to see them keep the EM / early SS style cabinets, as appropriate (single-level games), but I don't think operators will be too hot on the two-piece cabinets these days.

A totally-not-The Shadow retheme of The Shadow ala MM's totally-not-Monty Python would be something, but I don't think PPI/CGC even has the staff for that.

Maybe not operators. Huge commercial flop. Better ROM is free play only.

When I needed money in mid 2000's, it was the first to go. Buck or two a week on 50¢ a game play.

LTG : )

Maybe back in the 90s and 2000s (likely due to original, unlicensed theme, relative to, say, Adams Family or AFM riding off Mars Attacks!), but today? From the places with well-maintained WPC-95 games today, CV seems to do very well, even up against the Big 3 that got remade.

Unless you are the operator and have access to the cashbox. Seems to do very well is unknown.

LTG : )

From the operators I've talked with in the area it comes with the "among 90s pins" qualifier, where it's competitive.

This is in one of the top 10 largest cities in the US where newer Stern Pro absolutely dominates. There's zero publicly available JJP games in a ~200 mile radius on Pinballmap (yet a surprising number in private collections...) and it's looking like we may have more Spooky in the wild by the end of the year than either CGC or Stern's Premium/LE. There's only three locations I know of with EMs and anything pre-1990 are thin on the ground.

The game was a dog at release. If you go search the dark recesses of RGP you will see numerous accounts of operators dumping this game at fire sale prices back in the day. Partially because it didn't sell well, didn't play well, and partially because things at Williams/Bally were winding down. The game is terrible without the home ROM's, which don't allow coin-play. Hence the reason you don't usually see CV up and running at quarter play arcades (although I have seen it at some "time play" locations). Don't get me wrong, the pin is a personal favorite of mine, and one that won't soon leave my collection. It might be neat to see it with updates allowing the better ROM's to place the game out in the wild more, but it will always have the stigma of being a commercial flop (and rightfully so) from some long-time operators. I am sure CGC takes operators into account when deciding production runs.

Yeah, it's funny that CV is supposedly a "desirable" machine now. Back when it was released, no one wanted one and you could pick one up very cheaply. Supposedly WMS had a warehouse full of them that they were having a hard time unloading.

I had one a while ago - for a good few years, as well. Just MHO but it got the least plays of all those in my collection at the time. Honestly, I just couldn't get on with it. Home roms installed. I'm struggling to define what it was that I didn't like. I just found it unsatisfying and a bit irritating.

I thought the Ringmaster was a decent toy... but there were aspects of CV that did get on your nerves... "The Boom Balloons!" and the Amazing Roonie come to mind...