(Topic ID: 246499)

CFTBL start up problem

By drummermike

4 years ago


Topic Heartbeat

Topic Stats

  • 52 posts
  • 13 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 4 years ago by NPO
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

You

Linked Games

Topic Gallery

View topic image gallery

20190711_083823 (resized).jpg
20190711_083842 (resized).jpg
20190707_072705 (resized).jpg
20190707_072719 (resized).jpg
20190707_072745 (resized).jpg
20190707_072750 (resized).jpg
AE22824F-E93E-414C-9306-77EB4D5B5D8B (resized).jpeg
B6BF3C3D-6ACA-4767-AC84-80257B7AD0DE (resized).jpeg
E5E0604B-9952-42CD-9094-90186505DDD5 (resized).jpeg
432592E2-EC89-4B94-9B97-D7581C89D8BB (resized).jpeg
20190706_170647 (resized).jpg
20190706_170622 (resized).jpg
20190706_170606 (resized).jpg
20190706_122826 (resized).jpg
20190706_122812 (resized).jpg
20190705_191421 (resized).jpg

You're currently viewing posts by Pinsider npo.
Click here to go back to viewing the entire thread.

#7 4 years ago

You have a short somewhere. You need to download the manual and start getting familiar with it.

Manual is here:

https://www.ipdb.org/files/588/Bally_1992_Creature_from_the_Black_Lagoon_Full_Operations_Manual.pdf

I'll walk you through this one a bit.

The middle fuse is F103, which is responsible for solenoids #25 through #28 (on page 1-38). First of all, that's the wrong amperage fuse - should be a 3A, not a 2A, so no shit, that might be the only problem. Put the correct amperage fuse in, and play the game and see if it operates correctly.

If not....

Solenoids #25 through #28, if you go to 3-8 and 3-9 of the manual are the up/down diverter as well as the creature motor, hologram lamp and the Start Movie lights - so there's a direct correlation of the fuse blown and the solenoids/flashers affected.

The chances of it being one of the flashers is pretty small. More than likely, it will be one of the solenoids for the diverter or the hologram motor.

If the fuse (3A correct rating fuse) has blown again, I would pull J122 and J123 (page 3-8, supplies power to the Creature motor and hologram lamp and diverter) from the PDB. Then play the game.

If the fuse remains intact, there's a problem on the playfield (PF) side of the game for one of those components or the start movie flashers as J122 and J123 provides power for the affected flashers as well).

If the fuse still blows, you have problem on the power driver board (PDB) somewhere, which we can diagnose, but let's narrow the problem down to the PF or the PDB first.

Does the fuse blow completely randomly, or can you nearly "time it" as soon as you turn the game on, after say, 5 seconds, the fuse blows on cue every time...? If so, that is DEFINITELY a short.

#10 4 years ago
Quoted from drummermike:

The small coil had some wires coming off the coil. It has black dust from operating. The large coil looks ok.

You need to get the manual and get specific as to what coils you are talking about here. Remember, we are not in the room looking at the game with you. We cannot see what you see. To help you, we need nice, specific descriptions.

What is a small coil? Is it the size of the coil? The number of strands it has? The gauge of the wire?

Instead of "small coil had some wires coming off", you need to say something like:

"Solenoid #26 on page 2-43 of the manual, that coil has a Blue with Red-stripe wire hanging off of it...is that normal?"

Please do not take these constructive criticisms personally. More information to paint a picture for the rest of us helps us give you the best advice moving forward. Speaking of pictures...

Take some!!!!!! We all have camera phones now - help us see what you see. Take 3-5 seconds can give us a stellar visual image to help you get your game back on its feet.

Looking forward to what you find so we can continue to help. I have the schematic manuals that break down each board trace for trace if it comes to it.

#13 4 years ago
Quoted from drummermike:

No advice is bad! Thanks.
The fuse I put in is a 3A SB. Blew out immediately after turning on pin.
I now have both coils out from the diverter. The 2 lights are now off. I think the small coil is bad. 11.3 ohms seems high. The large coil is 4 ohms.
The lift ramp is on page 2-27. The Large coil is not the right one. Should be AE-26-1200. Wrong coil was working in this pin as long as I have had it.
Had this pin over 6 years.
I have the Mike D hologram mod. Not the original hologram.
[quoted image]

Ok, cool. Good stuff!

Do this:

1. Put a good fuse in.
2. Open the coin door and leave it open BEFORE you turn the game on.
3. Turn the game on.
4. See if your fuse blows

If it does, something's wrong on the power driver board. If not, something is wrong on the PF side of the game.

And now, some education on electrical circuits!

.
.
.
.

Your coil resistance values are fine per this website:

https://www.flippers.com/coil-resistance.html

You can find both coils and their corresponding ohm values. One of them was off by like 0.01 (negligible). Whoever put in the AE-23-800-01 did so as the ohm value is pretty much exactly the same.

Good rule of thumb for the future: the higher the number of strands (800 and 1200 for your coils), the more powerful the resistance. With Ohm's Law kicking in:

V = IR

As the resistance goes up, the current is going to go down. So if the loops on the coil go up, so does the resistance, meaning the current strength will drop.

Coils get a bad wrap as they look like they can fail, but in essence, all they are are a massive ball of wire. They either work or they don't. The only way they're really going to fail is if there is a break in the wire strands, causing an "open" circuit, and no current will be delivered (in other words, whatever the solenoid powers will not work). In this case, your coils are fine.

Go back to the advice I gave in the 4 steps above, and let us know what you find!

#15 4 years ago
Quoted from drummermike:

Put in new fuse with door open. Fuse blew.

All right. One final check to make absolutely certain. Start with game turned off:

1. New fuse in.
2. Unplug J122 and J123 (both responsible for supplying power to your affected coils and flashers)
3. Keep coin door open

Turn game on. If the fuse blows, we know without a shadow of a doubt it is on the PDB somewhere.

Looking at the schematic, I am very suspicious of BR3 (page 2-11 of the manual)near the top middle of the PDB , directly to the right of J106 and J107.

#17 4 years ago
Quoted from drummermike:

Fuse did not blow. I put on J123 and all good. I put on J122 and the fuse blew. One of the diverter coils made a load buzzing sound. The ramp dropped down.

And it blew with the coin door open? If so, something is shorting to one of the three components that J122 provides power to: and I'm starting to strongly suspect the up/down diverter assembly - especially after this comment:

Quoted from drummermike:

The small coil had some wires coming off the coil.

What exactly did you mean by this? Were some of the wires not physically connected to the coil?

I am pretty sure you fully disassembled your diverter unit. If so, when re-assembling, make sure the wire configuration is as follows:

bigger/fatter/longer solenoid: 20190706_122812 (resized).jpg20190706_122812 (resized).jpg

smaller/more tiny/shorter solenoid: 20190706_122826 (resized).jpg20190706_122826 (resized).jpg

Connection points don't matter, so as long as the two fat wires are on the same terminal and the smaller wire is by itself on the opposite terminal.

Check your coils to make sure the "wrapping" paper that goes around the spool of wiring is completely housing all of the coil wires. If any strands get loose and come out from underneath the paper wrappings, the strands can touch other pieces of metal and cause a short.

As you put the diverter assembly back in the game, make sure NOTHING metal is touching the assembly. That can inadvertently cause a short as well.

#20 4 years ago
Quoted from drummermike:

The fuse blew with the door open after J122 was put on. I put in another large coil and wrapped the small coil. Some wires were spiraling off the small coil but were not broken. I put the mech back together correctly.
What else could be shorted? The small coil still makes noise and puts the ramp down before the fuse blows.

It's due to something upstream causing the coil to prematurely fire. I'm really starting to think now it is BR3 (see my post above). Only real way to test it is to pull the board and use a DMM on BR3 to determine if it is defective. A defective BR would act as a short.

#22 4 years ago
Quoted from pintechev:

What do you mean the small coil has wires off it? Are those wires touching anything?

OP, can you give us some pictures of those two coils. Exactly the same as my provided pictures earlier in this thread?

#30 4 years ago

*reinforces the need to check BR3 to see if it has gone bad*

#32 4 years ago
Quoted from DumbAss:

If BR3 is shorted it will blow fuse F112 immediately on power up regardless of what connectors are connected between J122 and J132.

There is no high voltage interlock switch on this game. It makes no difference if the coin door is open or not. You have a shorted drive transistor on your power driver board.
I don't have a CFTBL in front of me (so I'm reading the manual). I'd be willing to bet that if you measured Q24 and Q34 on your power driver board one or possibly both will be shorted.
Likely sequence of events ...
1) Those "loose" wires were probably the small VIO-GRN wire that connects to the tieback diode. They finally vibrated enough to break enough of the connection to the tieback diode thus rendering the protection for back EMF ineffective.
2) You played a game and when the game next called for "ramp down" and/or "ramp up" it fired the solenoid but the back EMF caused the drive transistor to be damaged and now it is shorted.
3) Once shorted the fuse blew (somewhat) immediately you noticed a failure of any solenoid connected to the "continuous duty" (VIO-GRN) power source. In this case only two solenoids - solenoid 23 (ramp up) and solenoid 26 (ramp down).
4) Once you replaced the fuse it kept blowing because there is a shorted drive transistor and it will keep blowing until the offending drive transistors are fixed (replaced).
From the different sets of pictures above it appears that the tieback diode wire can be connected to either the "big" solenoid or the "small" solenoid. It doesn't matter which one it is connected to but if it does come loose then whatever solenoid (23 or 26) the game next fires will blow its corresponding drive transistor. That's why I can't be certain which (if either or both) but I can be fairly certain that it's one or both of them.
Another standard disclaimer: Of course ... this could be complete hogwash because I'm only going by what I read here in this thread and what's in the manual. There's nothing like seeing a physical machine in front of you and making your own diagnosis from the evidence you gather rather than someone relaying evidence in text and photos.

Damnit....that's right.....the high voltage interlock switch wasn't introduced until 1993, and CFTBL is a 1992 game. That's my bad. Good catch.

My thoughts on his F103 fuse blowing right away:

WPC Schematic manual shows BR3 as the only device between Pin #1 of J115 and F103. My limited knowledge view: BR3 is converting AC to DC current. If that BR is shorted, that is AC current hitting F103.

But you may be completely right. I am going off my limited knowledge, and since he has to pull the board to check the transistors that you mentioned, he might as well check BR3 while he is in there to be safe. Checking a BR should take about 10 minutes if you're reading how to do it for the first time over at Pinwiki (link below), and it is worth the peace of mind to know that component is sound!

Section 19.2 on the provided page will show the simple process to determine of the BR is good while it is installed on that board:

http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=General#Testing_a_Bridge_Rectifier

I tested a perfectly working uninstalled BR and got readings as low as 0.450 V, so don't fret if you don't get something between 0.5 and .7 V like the page says. You're looking for a dead short - 0.0 V or something very very close to it.

As far as testing Q24 and Q34, those are the transistors responsible for the up/down movement of the diverter on the MB ramp. Those are both TIP102 transistors, and a quick read here will help you on testing those:

TIP102: Put the black lead of the DMM on the metal tab of the transistor. Put the red lead of the DMM on each of the two outside legs of the transistor. A reading of .4 to .6 volts should be seen. Put the red lead on the center transistor leg (collector), and a zero reading should be seen. Any other value, and the transistor is bad and will need to be replaced.

And OP: I sure hope you re-soldered those wires back to the lugs for each solenoid. If you pressed the tip of the wire down on the lug and electrical taped it back on hoping the tape will keep the loose un-soldered wires in place for adequate current flow to the solenoids, that's not going to work in the long run....

#33 4 years ago

Paging zaza as he has some solid and sound diagrams that normally come in real handy!

#40 4 years ago
Quoted from drummermike:

Took out the power board and found a jumper repair on the back from the bad transistors. Must have failed before at the same location.
Got a new RD board from Pinball Wizard (ordered on Saturday and had it on Monday!). Can't see fixing a 26 year old board. Everything is now working. I will still put in new coils where someone put the wrong ones in. The small coil was coming apart so that will go.
Thanks to everyone for the help.

Send it to Chris Hibler or Rob Anthony. Original boards are sought after, and the more parts we can keep in the hobby the better. I've sold bad boards to these gentlemen before.

Just a suggestion. Glad you're back up and running. Sounds like it was some bad transistors!

#48 4 years ago
Quoted from drummermike:

New board eliminates the reset issue. A 26 year old board will fail again sometime.
Can't take the money with me!

What reset issue? That wasn't mentioned in this thread????

#52 4 years ago
Quoted from drummermike:

I used a Kahr board to stop resets before putting in the new RD board.

Tracking. You did it the right way by upgrading to a RD board. Bandaids are temporary.

Promoted items from Pinside Marketplace and Pinside Shops!
$ 549.00
Playfield - Other
Juz PINBALL Mods
 
$ 280.00
Playfield - Other
Avid Creations Wireforms
 
$ 250.00
Lighting - Interactive
Professor Pinball
 
7,600
Machine - For Sale
Anaheim, CA
$ 259.99
Cabinet - Toppers
Lighted Pinball Mods
 
$ 45.95
Lighting - Led
Mitchell Lighting
 
$ 29.95
Lighting - Led
Mitchell Lighting
 
From: $ 9.99
Eproms
Matt's Basement Arcade
 
8,000
Machine - For Sale
Portland, ME
$ 27.95
$ 38.00
Various Novelties
Pinball Photos LLC
 
€ 99.00
Lighting - Under Cabinet
Watssapen shop
 
€ 24.50
Playfield - Decals
Pin-Decals
 
Trade
Machine - For Trade
East Rutherford, NJ
From: $ 33.00
Gameroom - Decorations
Rocket City Pinball
 
$ 30.00
Playfield - Other
YouBentMyWookie
 
$ 69.99
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
Lighted Pinball Mods
 
€ 25.00
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
PPmods
 
$ 5.00
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
UpKick Pinball
 
$ 79.99
Cabinet - Armor And Blades
PinGraffix Pinside Shop
 
$ 45.95
$ 15.00
Playfield - Decals
Metal-Mods
 
From: $ 17.99
Eproms
Matt's Basement Arcade
 
7,500
Machine - For Sale
Matthews, NC
€ 24.00
$ 49.99
Cabinet - Toppers
Lighted Pinball Mods
 
$ 109.99
Lighting - Led
Lighted Pinball Mods
 
Hey modders!
Your shop name here

You're currently viewing posts by Pinsider npo.
Click here to go back to viewing the entire thread.

Reply

Wanna join the discussion? Please sign in to reply to this topic.

Hey there! Welcome to Pinside!

Donate to Pinside

Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run without any 3rd-party banners or ads, thanks to the support from our visitors? Please consider a donation to Pinside and get anext to your username to show for it! Or better yet, subscribe to Pinside+!


This page was printed from https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/cftbl-start-up-problem?tu=npo and we tried optimising it for printing. Some page elements may have been deliberately hidden.

Scan the QR code on the left to jump to the URL this document was printed from.