(Topic ID: 246499)

CFTBL start up problem


By drummermike

13 days ago



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  • 52 posts
  • 13 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 2 days ago by NPO
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

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There are 52 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.
#1 13 days ago

My Creature has a new problem after turning on the pin. The two round projector lights that are in between the start and movie lights come on and stay on. The left ramp diverter is also not working. I manually started multi-ball and the diverter will not come down. When this first happened the diverter was down. I put it up manually. I tested the up and down for the ramp diverter. They will not work in test mode. Any help is appreciated. Thanks.

#2 12 days ago

Turn it off.
Reseat all the gray ribbon connectors. You don't have to fully remove them; pull one side up a bit, then the other side, then back down with both sides.
Particularly the short one from WPC board to PD board.
Do symptoms change?

#3 11 days ago

No change after reseating all ribbons cables.

#4 11 days ago

Did you check the fuses?

#5 11 days ago

*

#6 11 days ago

The 2A SB fuse under J107 in the middle of the 5 was bad. It looked ok till I pulled it! It keeps blowing out. I can't find any bad wires. Could one of the diverter coils be bad? The small coil had some wires coming off the coil. It has black dust from operating. The large coil looks ok.

#7 11 days ago

You have a short somewhere. You need to download the manual and start getting familiar with it.

Manual is here:

https://www.ipdb.org/files/588/Bally_1992_Creature_from_the_Black_Lagoon_Full_Operations_Manual.pdf

I'll walk you through this one a bit.

The middle fuse is F103, which is responsible for solenoids #25 through #28 (on page 1-38). First of all, that's the wrong amperage fuse - should be a 3A, not a 2A, so no shit, that might be the only problem. Put the correct amperage fuse in, and play the game and see if it operates correctly.

If not....

Solenoids #25 through #28, if you go to 3-8 and 3-9 of the manual are the up/down diverter as well as the creature motor, hologram lamp and the Start Movie lights - so there's a direct correlation of the fuse blown and the solenoids/flashers affected.

The chances of it being one of the flashers is pretty small. More than likely, it will be one of the solenoids for the diverter or the hologram motor.

If the fuse (3A correct rating fuse) has blown again, I would pull J122 and J123 (page 3-8, supplies power to the Creature motor and hologram lamp and diverter) from the PDB. Then play the game.

If the fuse remains intact, there's a problem on the playfield (PF) side of the game for one of those components or the start movie flashers as J122 and J123 provides power for the affected flashers as well).

If the fuse still blows, you have problem on the power driver board (PDB) somewhere, which we can diagnose, but let's narrow the problem down to the PF or the PDB first.

Does the fuse blow completely randomly, or can you nearly "time it" as soon as you turn the game on, after say, 5 seconds, the fuse blows on cue every time...? If so, that is DEFINITELY a short.

#8 11 days ago

Small coil with wires coming off it sounds kinda sketch...

#9 11 days ago

May be worth checking those solenoids NPO noted to see if something is shorted to those flasher holders/associated solenoids. At least it may be a clue that those are shorted on. There’s a bunch of stuff really close together that I recall when swapping playfield.

#10 11 days ago
Quoted from drummermike:

The small coil had some wires coming off the coil. It has black dust from operating. The large coil looks ok.

You need to get the manual and get specific as to what coils you are talking about here. Remember, we are not in the room looking at the game with you. We cannot see what you see. To help you, we need nice, specific descriptions.

What is a small coil? Is it the size of the coil? The number of strands it has? The gauge of the wire?

Instead of "small coil had some wires coming off", you need to say something like:

"Solenoid #26 on page 2-43 of the manual, that coil has a Blue with Red-stripe wire hanging off of it...is that normal?"

Please do not take these constructive criticisms personally. More information to paint a picture for the rest of us helps us give you the best advice moving forward. Speaking of pictures...

Take some!!!!!! We all have camera phones now - help us see what you see. Take 3-5 seconds can give us a stellar visual image to help you get your game back on its feet.

Looking forward to what you find so we can continue to help. I have the schematic manuals that break down each board trace for trace if it comes to it.

#11 11 days ago

No advice is bad! Thanks.

The fuse I put in is a 3A SB. Blew out immediately after turning on pin.

I now have both coils out from the diverter. The 2 lights are now off. I think the small coil is bad. 11.3 ohms seems high. The large coil is 4 ohms.

The lift ramp is on page 2-27. The Large coil is not the right one. Should be AE-26-1200. Wrong coil was working in this pin as long as I have had it.
Had this pin over 6 years.

I have the Mike D hologram mod. Not the original hologram.
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#12 11 days ago

I also noticed 3 of the coils are not the recommended ones in the manual.

The left flipper should be 15411. I have 11629.

#13 10 days ago
Quoted from drummermike:

No advice is bad! Thanks.
The fuse I put in is a 3A SB. Blew out immediately after turning on pin.
I now have both coils out from the diverter. The 2 lights are now off. I think the small coil is bad. 11.3 ohms seems high. The large coil is 4 ohms.
The lift ramp is on page 2-27. The Large coil is not the right one. Should be AE-26-1200. Wrong coil was working in this pin as long as I have had it.
Had this pin over 6 years.
I have the Mike D hologram mod. Not the original hologram.
[quoted image]

Ok, cool. Good stuff!

Do this:

1. Put a good fuse in.
2. Open the coin door and leave it open BEFORE you turn the game on.
3. Turn the game on.
4. See if your fuse blows

If it does, something's wrong on the power driver board. If not, something is wrong on the PF side of the game.

And now, some education on electrical circuits!

.
.
.
.

Your coil resistance values are fine per this website:

https://www.flippers.com/coil-resistance.html

You can find both coils and their corresponding ohm values. One of them was off by like 0.01 (negligible). Whoever put in the AE-23-800-01 did so as the ohm value is pretty much exactly the same.

Good rule of thumb for the future: the higher the number of strands (800 and 1200 for your coils), the more powerful the resistance. With Ohm's Law kicking in:

V = IR

As the resistance goes up, the current is going to go down. So if the loops on the coil go up, so does the resistance, meaning the current strength will drop.

Coils get a bad wrap as they look like they can fail, but in essence, all they are are a massive ball of wire. They either work or they don't. The only way they're really going to fail is if there is a break in the wire strands, causing an "open" circuit, and no current will be delivered (in other words, whatever the solenoid powers will not work). In this case, your coils are fine.

Go back to the advice I gave in the 4 steps above, and let us know what you find!

#14 10 days ago

Put in new fuse with door open. Fuse blew.

#15 10 days ago
Quoted from drummermike:

Put in new fuse with door open. Fuse blew.

All right. One final check to make absolutely certain. Start with game turned off:

1. New fuse in.
2. Unplug J122 and J123 (both responsible for supplying power to your affected coils and flashers)
3. Keep coin door open

Turn game on. If the fuse blows, we know without a shadow of a doubt it is on the PDB somewhere.

Looking at the schematic, I am very suspicious of BR3 (page 2-11 of the manual)near the top middle of the PDB , directly to the right of J106 and J107.

#16 10 days ago

Fuse did not blow. I put on J123 and all good. I put on J122 and the fuse blew. One of the diverter coils made a load buzzing sound. The ramp dropped down.

#17 10 days ago
Quoted from drummermike:

Fuse did not blow. I put on J123 and all good. I put on J122 and the fuse blew. One of the diverter coils made a load buzzing sound. The ramp dropped down.

And it blew with the coin door open? If so, something is shorting to one of the three components that J122 provides power to: and I'm starting to strongly suspect the up/down diverter assembly - especially after this comment:

Quoted from drummermike:

The small coil had some wires coming off the coil.

What exactly did you mean by this? Were some of the wires not physically connected to the coil?

I am pretty sure you fully disassembled your diverter unit. If so, when re-assembling, make sure the wire configuration is as follows:

bigger/fatter/longer solenoid: 20190706_122812 (resized).jpg

smaller/more tiny/shorter solenoid: 20190706_122826 (resized).jpg

Connection points don't matter, so as long as the two fat wires are on the same terminal and the smaller wire is by itself on the opposite terminal.

Check your coils to make sure the "wrapping" paper that goes around the spool of wiring is completely housing all of the coil wires. If any strands get loose and come out from underneath the paper wrappings, the strands can touch other pieces of metal and cause a short.

As you put the diverter assembly back in the game, make sure NOTHING metal is touching the assembly. That can inadvertently cause a short as well.

#18 10 days ago

The fuse blew with the door open after J122 was put on. I put in another large coil and wrapped the small coil. Some wires were spiraling off the small coil but were not broken. I put the mech back together correctly.

What else could be shorted? The small coil still makes noise and puts the ramp down before the fuse blows.

#19 10 days ago

What do you mean the small coil has wires off it? Are those wires touching anything?

#20 10 days ago
Quoted from drummermike:

The fuse blew with the door open after J122 was put on. I put in another large coil and wrapped the small coil. Some wires were spiraling off the small coil but were not broken. I put the mech back together correctly.
What else could be shorted? The small coil still makes noise and puts the ramp down before the fuse blows.

It's due to something upstream causing the coil to prematurely fire. I'm really starting to think now it is BR3 (see my post above). Only real way to test it is to pull the board and use a DMM on BR3 to determine if it is defective. A defective BR would act as a short.

#21 10 days ago
Quoted from pintechev:

What do you mean the small coil has wires off it? Are those wires touching anything?

I put the wires back around the coil and put tape around the coil. Nothing is touching.

#22 10 days ago
Quoted from pintechev:

What do you mean the small coil has wires off it? Are those wires touching anything?

OP, can you give us some pictures of those two coils. Exactly the same as my provided pictures earlier in this thread?

#23 10 days ago

Sure.

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#24 10 days ago

Disclaimer: I have no evidence to back up any of the following.

There are tieback diodes to J122 and J126. Both VIO-GRN wires. Not sure if this may be related to your issue. If the wire isn't correctly connected in the chain then the corresponding drive transistor may be damaged from back EMF.

#25 10 days ago

None of the wires have been changed in years of normal play. This issue just started after normal play.

#26 10 days ago
Quoted from drummermike:

None of the wires have been changed in years of normal play. This issue just started after normal play.

Are these coils directly connected like it shows in this pic. Because that blue wire looks like it is. The purple should be the only one daisy chained i think. Because that’s not how mine is wired.

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#27 10 days ago

This is mine

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#28 10 days ago

Whenever I see electrical tape I am just dying to see what is underneath it.

#29 10 days ago

Mine are not tied together directly. It has been working for years the way it is now wired.
Post 17 pictures look just like what is under the tape.

#30 10 days ago

*reinforces the need to check BR3 to see if it has gone bad*

#31 9 days ago
Quoted from NPO:

*reinforces the need to check BR3 to see if it has gone bad*

If BR3 is shorted it will blow fuse F112 immediately on power up regardless of what connectors are connected between J122 and J132.

Quoted from drummermike:

Fuse did not blow. I put on J123 and all good. I put on J122 and the fuse blew. One of the diverter coils made a load buzzing sound. The ramp dropped down.

Quoted from drummermike:

The fuse blew with the door open after J122 was put on. I put in another large coil and wrapped the small coil. Some wires were spiraling off the small coil but were not broken. I put the mech back together correctly.
What else could be shorted? The small coil still makes noise and puts the ramp down before the fuse blows.

There is no high voltage interlock switch on this game. It makes no difference if the coin door is open or not. You have a shorted drive transistor on your power driver board.

I don't have a CFTBL in front of me (so I'm reading the manual). I'd be willing to bet that if you measured Q24 and Q34 on your power driver board one or possibly both will be shorted.

Likely sequence of events ...

1) Those "loose" wires were probably the small VIO-GRN wire that connects to the tieback diode. They finally vibrated enough to break enough of the connection to the tieback diode thus rendering the protection for back EMF ineffective.

2) You played a game and when the game next called for "ramp down" and/or "ramp up" it fired the solenoid but the back EMF caused the drive transistor to be damaged and now it is shorted.

3) Once shorted the fuse blew (somewhat) immediately you noticed a failure of any solenoid connected to the "continuous duty" (VIO-GRN) power source. In this case only two solenoids - solenoid 23 (ramp up) and solenoid 26 (ramp down).

4) Once you replaced the fuse it kept blowing because there is a shorted drive transistor and it will keep blowing until the offending drive transistors are fixed (replaced).

From the different sets of pictures above it appears that the tieback diode wire can be connected to either the "big" solenoid or the "small" solenoid. It doesn't matter which one it is connected to but if it does come loose then whatever solenoid (23 or 26) the game next fires will blow its corresponding drive transistor. That's why I can't be certain which (if either or both) but I can be fairly certain that it's one or both of them.

Another standard disclaimer: Of course ... this could be complete hogwash because I'm only going by what I read here in this thread and what's in the manual. There's nothing like seeing a physical machine in front of you and making your own diagnosis from the evidence you gather rather than someone relaying evidence in text and photos.

#32 9 days ago
Quoted from DumbAss:

If BR3 is shorted it will blow fuse F112 immediately on power up regardless of what connectors are connected between J122 and J132.

There is no high voltage interlock switch on this game. It makes no difference if the coin door is open or not. You have a shorted drive transistor on your power driver board.
I don't have a CFTBL in front of me (so I'm reading the manual). I'd be willing to bet that if you measured Q24 and Q34 on your power driver board one or possibly both will be shorted.
Likely sequence of events ...
1) Those "loose" wires were probably the small VIO-GRN wire that connects to the tieback diode. They finally vibrated enough to break enough of the connection to the tieback diode thus rendering the protection for back EMF ineffective.
2) You played a game and when the game next called for "ramp down" and/or "ramp up" it fired the solenoid but the back EMF caused the drive transistor to be damaged and now it is shorted.
3) Once shorted the fuse blew (somewhat) immediately you noticed a failure of any solenoid connected to the "continuous duty" (VIO-GRN) power source. In this case only two solenoids - solenoid 23 (ramp up) and solenoid 26 (ramp down).
4) Once you replaced the fuse it kept blowing because there is a shorted drive transistor and it will keep blowing until the offending drive transistors are fixed (replaced).
From the different sets of pictures above it appears that the tieback diode wire can be connected to either the "big" solenoid or the "small" solenoid. It doesn't matter which one it is connected to but if it does come loose then whatever solenoid (23 or 26) the game next fires will blow its corresponding drive transistor. That's why I can't be certain which (if either or both) but I can be fairly certain that it's one or both of them.
Another standard disclaimer: Of course ... this could be complete hogwash because I'm only going by what I read here in this thread and what's in the manual. There's nothing like seeing a physical machine in front of you and making your own diagnosis from the evidence you gather rather than someone relaying evidence in text and photos.

Damnit....that's right.....the high voltage interlock switch wasn't introduced until 1993, and CFTBL is a 1992 game. That's my bad. Good catch.

My thoughts on his F103 fuse blowing right away:

WPC Schematic manual shows BR3 as the only device between Pin #1 of J115 and F103. My limited knowledge view: BR3 is converting AC to DC current. If that BR is shorted, that is AC current hitting F103.

But you may be completely right. I am going off my limited knowledge, and since he has to pull the board to check the transistors that you mentioned, he might as well check BR3 while he is in there to be safe. Checking a BR should take about 10 minutes if you're reading how to do it for the first time over at Pinwiki (link below), and it is worth the peace of mind to know that component is sound!

Section 19.2 on the provided page will show the simple process to determine of the BR is good while it is installed on that board:

http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=General#Testing_a_Bridge_Rectifier

I tested a perfectly working uninstalled BR and got readings as low as 0.450 V, so don't fret if you don't get something between 0.5 and .7 V like the page says. You're looking for a dead short - 0.0 V or something very very close to it.

As far as testing Q24 and Q34, those are the transistors responsible for the up/down movement of the diverter on the MB ramp. Those are both TIP102 transistors, and a quick read here will help you on testing those:

TIP102: Put the black lead of the DMM on the metal tab of the transistor. Put the red lead of the DMM on each of the two outside legs of the transistor. A reading of .4 to .6 volts should be seen. Put the red lead on the center transistor leg (collector), and a zero reading should be seen. Any other value, and the transistor is bad and will need to be replaced.

And OP: I sure hope you re-soldered those wires back to the lugs for each solenoid. If you pressed the tip of the wire down on the lug and electrical taped it back on hoping the tape will keep the loose un-soldered wires in place for adequate current flow to the solenoids, that's not going to work in the long run....

#33 9 days ago

Paging zaza as he has some solid and sound diagrams that normally come in real handy!

#34 9 days ago

It looks like you (all) are right on track and most things have already asked to check:

Quoted from DumbAss:

Q24 and Q34 on your power driver board one or possibly both will be shorted.

Quoted from dmacy:

see if something is shorted to those flasher holders/associated solenoids.

Quoted from DumbAss:

There are tieback diodes to J122 and J126.

Quoted from NPO:

TIP102: Put the black lead of the DMM on the metal tab of the transistor. Put the red lead of the DMM on each of the two outside legs of the transistor.

but I have some concerns about this:

Quoted from drummermike:

The two round projector lights that are in between the start and movie lights come on and stay on.

Those 2 flashers (#25) are also driven through J122, together with sol. #26 ramp down.
By pulling J122 the fuse would not blow.
It makes me think that the PowerDriverBoard is wrong plugged, or a short on playfield between flasher and solenoid or a blown drive chip (U2) on PDB.

Would like to see a picture of the powerdriver of connectors J122 to J132.

#35 9 days ago

So you are saying a wire came off one of the coils.

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#36 9 days ago

Connectors look all in correct place. The lampmatrix looks modificated but should not involve this problem.

1st step would be the measurements on Q24 (ramp down) and Q34 (ramp up) and Q26 (start movie flashers) on the PDB

#37 9 days ago

I checked Q24,26 and 34. No readings. I had to have J122 off. The fuse would have blown anyway.

#38 7 days ago

Took out the power board and found a jumper repair on the back from the bad transistors. Must have failed before at the same location.
Got a new RD board from Pinball Wizard (ordered on Saturday and had it on Monday!). Can't see fixing a 26 year old board. Everything is now working. I will still put in new coils where someone put the wrong ones in. The small coil was coming apart so that will go.

Thanks to everyone for the help.

#39 7 days ago
Quoted from drummermike:

Took out the power board and found a jumper repair on the back from the bad transistors. Must have failed before at the same location.
Got a new RD board from Pinball Wizard (ordered on Saturday and had it on Monday!). Can't see fixing a 26 year old board. Everything is now working. I will still put in new coils where someone put the wrong ones in. The small coil was coming apart so that will go.
Thanks to everyone for the help.

Thanks for the update! Glad to hear you’re going to be back up and running

#40 6 days ago
Quoted from drummermike:

Took out the power board and found a jumper repair on the back from the bad transistors. Must have failed before at the same location.
Got a new RD board from Pinball Wizard (ordered on Saturday and had it on Monday!). Can't see fixing a 26 year old board. Everything is now working. I will still put in new coils where someone put the wrong ones in. The small coil was coming apart so that will go.
Thanks to everyone for the help.

Send it to Chris Hibler or Rob Anthony. Original boards are sought after, and the more parts we can keep in the hobby the better. I've sold bad boards to these gentlemen before.

Just a suggestion. Glad you're back up and running. Sounds like it was some bad transistors!

#41 6 days ago

Power boards are pretty easy to repair, it is worth putting a little effort into.

#42 6 days ago

From my perspective it's worth even more to repair (or salvage). BOMs for boards are EXPENSIVE. The parts add up fast.

#43 5 days ago

Replaced these items when I put in 3 other correct coils.

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#44 4 days ago

Ouch....glad it's working, but $2.50 for a couple transistors vs. 299.00 for a new board...

#45 4 days ago

New board eliminates the reset issue. A 26 year old board will fail again sometime.

Can't take the money with me!

#46 4 days ago
Quoted from drummermike:

New board eliminates the reset issue. A 26 year old board will fail again sometime.
Can't take the money with me!

Well if THAT'S your attitude, please send check made out to "CASH" to..................me.......

Glad it's running again.....great game.......have had mine well over 10 years, still chugging along on original equipment, thank god.....

#47 4 days ago

Mine was not in real nice shape. All the ramps were broken. The holo was not working. Many other issues. The pf is in great condition.

I like the humor in this game. My wife can hear the guy yell "let me out" upstairs.

Check is in the mail!

#48 3 days ago
Quoted from drummermike:

New board eliminates the reset issue. A 26 year old board will fail again sometime.
Can't take the money with me!

What reset issue? That wasn't mentioned in this thread????

#49 3 days ago
Quoted from drummermike:

New board eliminates the reset issue.

Only temporarily. http://www.kahr.us/daughterboard.html
"Resets happen on WPC pinball machines because the Driver Board's 5 volt power supply is minimally sized for the many functions it needs to drive. WPC series MPU Boards have a watchdog circuit that shuts down the board if the voltage on the 5 volt line drops below a cutoff voltage (around 4.7 volts)."

Read the rest of the explanation at the link.

#50 2 days ago

The new Rotten Dog board eliminates the resets. I removed the kahr daughterboard before putting in the new power board. My CV is using a RD board with no issues for years.

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