I'm still not getting the math on this one. Seems very cost prohibitive, but then how did it ever fly in the first place. Could 350 of these be sold at 100$ each? There's $35,000 there. Honestly, I appreciate Henrik's efforts, but I'm still struggling with the cost of the holo's. Think pinball ninja posted in one blog that "at the time" the holo's were going for under $50?

My holo is blue, but for the cost of the current replacement, I'll shut up and make due. $100 a piece and I'll buy 2 no hesitation - maybe even 3.

Where does the cost come in - to get it made overall or the incremental cost to "print" them off. Guess that's what I'm struggling with. I'll support the costs to get it made, incremental cost (ie $300 a pop), someone needs to rationalize that better to me.

I believe Henrik if he indicates he had heavy up front costs. So would it be cheaper for him to run a new production off the real model based on lessons learned from the current venture? Think alot of his costs were the actual artists re-rendering of the existing holos? Whats the cost to take the actual model, scan, manufacture the holo?

So whats a reproduction based off the original model worth to most? I'd still struggle at $300 a pop unless its something like $300 with a lifetime warranty or 20 years whichever comes first. At 300$ for that buy in the manufacturer could store the replacements for me and still make money. Should only have to store at max another 3 per registered buyer. I send in my failed holo and they send me back a replacement after receiving the failed one from the registered buyer. Could cut down on market flooding with re-sales etc, and protect the manufacturers investment.

Or just charge the $100 a pop and run the risk of being undercut by the aftermarket sellers. But really how much of a problem is reselling on all the other $100 parts we buy?

I'm all for someone doing this and making a buck and it being reasonable for the buyer. If that simply can't be done (as Rick suggests) then I guess let it die I guess and we all go to LCD mods. Someone making a buck vs pocketing hundred fold markup per holo - ya I guess let it die if that's the only way for someone to do this.

Sure it is if it lasts 20 years. $300 is alot for a mod period. Even good ones.

Like i said the $300 is a trade off for the assurance a registered buyer has a holo thats gonna stand the test of time. If the individual ones fail, they get a replacement. If the cost to the holo's is not to manufacture them but to do the initial design and run on them and not the "printing" then what's the big woop. The seller gets $300 for a holo and buyer gets the knowledge his holo will last the same amount of time as the original. So use 10 years then. Point being for 300$ it should last longer than some of the other ones that were done that turned red. Dropping $300 should get you a holo that lasts as long as the original and the manufacturer should be willing to stand behind it with something. Any different and I'm out and I'd warrant it gives others hesitation too. Wanna sell them in volume, drop the price and guys won't care if they burn $100 and it lasts only 5 years, wanna sell them at a high price then sell em with a warranty. pretty simple to me.

That's nice. If you prefer to base the business model for this off of something you experienced in a mall back in the day then all the power to you. For me, the price point has to be low enough that I see it as a consumable item, or if its coming at a premium then I want something in return to cover my investment. By going with another option of high cost with no assurance means I personally am out - you are in. We'd probably equally represent the Creature owners out there. My model leads to more holos being sold and the project going forward, yours potentially cuts the buyer base in half putting the project in question.

I've been wrong lots before though. So in closing I'll just leave it as me personally would be out at a high price with no assurance. Think about it though. I just bought a FG topper on which the "cost" was $100. The actual cost to me here in Canada including shipping is $180 upon which I'm still going to pay 5% tax (I'm in Alberta so lucky - other areas of Canada are %13 or more), then I'm likely going to have to pay some shitty brokerage fee. My $100 topper is now at least $200. Not going to pay $400 to get a holo to my door that I have no assurance of its staying power. That's just me though. I like the hobby, but not going to pee away my money on this particular venture.

Nope - as clearly stated my underlying point is

"For me, the price point has to be low enough that I see it as a consumable item, or if its coming at a premium then I want something in return to cover my investment. "

Unlike other add on's, mods, aftermarket replacements, Holo is unique in that it can degrade to a useless state just by sitting there in the game. I can't limit its use or treat it with kids gloves or not put it in a harsh environment. Ya there are things that can contribute to early failure, but a bad repro sitting in a basement on a HUO machine can go red (or some other color) or fade if the repro is not done to quality standards. So if someone will not stand behind their repro and say with confidence (and thereby back it up with something substantial - like a replacement for x number of years) that it will last as long as the original, then the price needs to drop. Or charge the premium but then stand behind it somehow. I don't care how - I gave a suggestion to try and limit the market flooding with re-sales that would damage the profit margins of the manufacturer. It was one option only though. Someone have a better idea to protect both the manufacturer and purchaser than step up. To suggest that this should cost $300 per holo because the manufacturer doesn't want any headache or risk leaves me out of the buying equation........and likely other Creature owners as well.

Originals lasted 20 years did they not? I do not see the big deal here. If the guys doing the repros INSIST they match the quality of the originals then charge the $300 and stand behind them. If they don't want to stand behind them and are still charging $300 then they lose me as customer. No problem except I think based on previous discussions I'm not alone. If i'm going to sink $300+ then I'll look at one of the LCD mods where I have a better idea on the life expectancy. On a 5000 pinball in a huo environment I would expect and know it to hold up as machines from 20 years ago are holding up. Meaning they are still running. Many are still running well after being through some serious abuse. On a $30,000 car I know the expected life span based on "how" I drive it and the number of miles I put on it. I certainly don't expect it to fall apart if its just sitting in my garage. Not sure on the relevance of your question though.

Wish someone/anyone all the best of luck should they venture forth on this project - regardless of where they decide to price it and stand behind it. Just count me out based on the current price point is all, and my humble opinion suggests other would be out as well.

That's more like it - at $50 each - give another $25 to whoever holds the rights. $75 charge to me - put me down for 2 heck 3. As per the previous attempts at $300 (and my previous posts) - I'll take zerio - unless it is "exactly" like original and comes with 15 year guarantee

So when the topic of if MB will ever be a remake, people say why not - "the rights are cheap". "Look at all the monsters paraphernalia out there"

But every time a holo repro comes up its "expensive" or as you've said "costs a lot of money". So what is it? I call BS so here's my opinion - The more I come to read about this project and why it never gets off the ground or we end up with a half baked result is it seems to simply boil down to someones greed and or politics vs actual cost and technical challenges.

But hey - its all about Karma at some point. So best of luck to all those involved with the rights and the models. This has become such a joke. With all the other parts, repros, bloody entire games being rebuilt - Its completely stupid to think the reason this project hasn't gotten off the ground is related to any other reason than politics, greed, or combination there of. Its a damn foil hologram. Same technology thats stamped onto every credit card or pack of sports cards out there.

rant for the day done

Its a foil. its not a reproduction of a part - no manufacturing. Kind of like saying to get a poster you'd need to incorporate the cost of the manufacturing of the printer. No - you just need to allow for the ink and the operators mark up of creating the print. I'd imagine the original poster that tracked down the numbers and got quotes for the foil printing allowed for that.

Why would it cost any more to secure the rights to print the creature holo from Universal or whoever any more than these?

http://www.amazon.com/Universal-Monsters-Creature-Lagoon-Action/dp/B00DI7CHWQ/ref=sr_1_7

http://www.amazon.com/Diamond-Select-Toys-Universal-Monsters/dp/B007TT9DVC/ref=sr_1_4

Yes - there would need to be additional rights paid to who holds the model, but should it be hundreds of dollars or tens? That would be up to them to decide I guess, but it all takes me back to my original thought. Politics and or greed are the only things in the way of making this successful. Someone is trying to get rich off of this along the way - and i'm not sure its the guys that are trying to reproduce it. It hasn't worked at charging $300+ per holo - maybe someone should try a different tact and they might make some money. In my mind it is simple - you cannot hold someone hostage to a $300+ holo and not give a 15 or 20 year assurance the holo will last. If someone will sell me one that looks like the original and will stand behind it for the same amount of time as the originals have lasted then I'll happily fork over my 300. If you will not stand behind the product then we're back down under the $100. And that's where the BS kicks in. The rights owners (PPS and the model owner in this case) would appear to want to make a wack off of money off the rights they own AND assume no risk. They reap all the reward. The guy taking on the printing is assuming all the risk along with the buyer while doing all the work. So again - politics and greed. God this project pisses me off.

And as I said - you get to decide which of these projects see the light of day and which don't............i get to choose where to spend my money. Whether that be a holo - or a repro game(s).

ya what's off base is the greed and politics part. All these challenges will magically disappear when it's time to repro Creech. So don't worry guys - you want a new holo, you'll just have to wait and graciously give Rick your money for a whole new pin to get it. It'll be fine to step over Henrik then cause at that point Rick will "be interested" as he's said himself. So wait for the repro or vote with your dollars now and take a pass on the repro's. I'll wait for the right holo at the right price or guarantee or wait for the next run of the lcd. Assuming Rick doesn't try and poo poo that too.

No you wouldn't but that is not what whysnow is saying (I don't think). I believe what he's saying is that the model owner could go to universal and pay a license fee to recreate the model image onto a foil holo to be displayed as art on your wall. This removes Rick from the equation as it's not being sold to go into a pinball machine but does maintain the relationship with universal and the model holder. Where someone choses to display said art (on a wall or inside their pinball) would be up to them and thankfully Rick wouldn't need to to spend time worrying about that. That also means Rick wouldn't have to be persuaded to "be interested" as it would have nothing to do with him. He could spend his valuable time focusing on the logistics, justification$, and "be interested" in other areas around his rights he controls.

So Rick holds control over the existing models as they were created by bally? Interesting. Oh well there's still the lcd mod.

Man you guys keep proving my point!

Rick's got a better idea though. Just wait for the repro and everyone can have their holo. It'll just cost you 8 large is all

I appreciate all your efforts on this. I wish it would all come together, but mark my word, there will be no sanctioned repro holo until it all magically comes together for CFTBL-repro machine. Then suddenly all these challenges will disappear as Rick will "be intere$ted". Holo's will be available then, but they'll still be $300+ with no assurance to their longevity. Personally I think there is a way to move the hobby forward while still making some money. My take away from watching Rick's posts closely since the MMr announcement is that his business acumen and stance is more aligned with the $ side of all this. That's his choice - he owns the rights. But personally I've come to the realization I just can't support him. At some point the customer is always right though, so I'll take some solace in that.

Off to play WOZ. peace out

Nobody does it just and only for the love. I wouldn't either. When good things aren't happening due to politics and or greed though then things are out of balance. But as with all things out of balance there'll be a correction at some point.