(Topic ID: 82128)

CFTBL Found photo of original model used for hologram. Need your HELP!!


By creaturemonster

5 years ago



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#151 5 years ago
Quoted from PPS:

good one Hilton ... I guess advocating that people break the law if they can't have their way is the moral high ground ...

Nothing moral about it. Sometimes it is worth it to break the law. I am not making these nor would i care to take the investment risk for the likely small reward, but if i was i know i would not be paying a crazy high license fee to do so.

Pretty easy to hide stuff overseas and meet the needs of the consumer if the IP is not willing to come up with a reasonable number or make sure the job is done right the first time.

#152 5 years ago
Quoted from Hobbypinball:

Why would it cost any more to secure the rights to print the creature holo from Universal or whoever any more than these?

I have no clue what things cost. Here's my guess: it's a flat rate, maybe based on units to be made. How many of these holos do you think you can sell? A few hundred maybe. I'm guessing those models kits move thousands. Different ballgame. This is a niche thing.

#153 5 years ago
Quoted from Hobbypinball:

God this project pisses me off.

there is no project to get pissed about ... the project was already done, Henrik spent about a year on it and provided the best that he could (and likely anything else will just come with a different set of 'issues'). I'm certainly (as I said before) not going to undermine a supplier who spends alot of money on something just because there 'might' be something a little better ... that's just the way the dice roll sometimes. When Henrik gets his investment back on these and we have run out then it may be time to think about another one, but the last iteration seemed to only build up a little demand in 5 years, and then you also have the mods, which lower the potential anyways.

Last post I will do on this topic, moving on to projects that have not been done ... yet

#154 5 years ago

I'm not sure who owns what rights etc but from what I understand Creature is a Universal monster so why do we even have to go through anyone else to make a hologram picture of it? If someone got their hands on one of the models and licensing fee's are negotiated with Universal then why do we need to plead with someone not willing to help us out? Creature is owned by Universal, not Bally/Williams, so a request to simply make hologram pictures to sell in frames would be all that is needed. What people do with them when they buy them (put it in their game) is their business. To me, this is the route to go that makes the most sense.

#155 5 years ago
Quoted from FishPharm:

I'm not sure who owns what rights etc but from what I understand Creature is a Universal monster so why do we even have to go through anyone else to make a hologram picture of it? If someone got their hands on one of the models and licensing fee's are negotiated with Universal then why do we need to plead with someone not willing to help us out? Creature is owned by Universal, not Bally/Williams, so a request to simply make hologram pictures to sell in frames would be all that is needed. What people do with them when they buy them (put it in their game) is their business. To me, this is the route to go that makes the most sense.

That's true.

I've been looking for a Creature hologram refrigerator magnet - green if possible.

#156 5 years ago
Quoted from FishPharm:

I'm not sure who owns what rights etc but from what I understand Creature is a Universal monster so why do we even have to go through anyone else to make a hologram picture of it? If someone got their hands on one of the models and licensing fee's are negotiated with Universal then why do we need to plead with someone not willing to help us out? Creature is owned by Universal, not Bally/Williams, so a request to simply make hologram pictures to sell in frames would be all that is needed. What people do with them when they buy them (put it in their game) is their business. To me, this is the route to go that makes the most sense.

Thought about this too, but I believe the model was custom made by Bally employees so it's Bally art.

#157 5 years ago
Quoted from PPS:

but the last iteration seemed to only build up a little demand in 5 years

As discussed, the last iteration had issues, and was high priced. Do a hologram using a proper model at a more reasonable price and I bet they would sell like crazy. I already have the mikeD mod, but I would buy one in a heartbeat. Hell, I'd buy two and frame one should that momentous occasion ever happen.

#158 5 years ago
Quoted from PPS:

there is no project to get pissed about ... the project was already done, Henrik spent about a year on it and provided the best that he could (and likely anything else will just come with a different set of 'issues'). I'm certainly (as I said before) not going to undermine a supplier who spends alot of money on something just because there 'might' be something a little better ... that's just the way the dice roll sometimes. When Henrik gets his investment back on these and we have run out then it may be time to think about another one, but the last iteration seemed to only build up a little demand in 5 years, and then you also have the mods, which lower the potential anyways.
Last post I will do on this topic, moving on to projects that have not been done ... yet

And as I said - you get to decide which of these projects see the light of day and which don't............i get to choose where to spend my money. Whether that be a holo - or a repro game(s).

#159 5 years ago

I installed the IPB hologram in December 2006. It's still good, nice and green. If it ever goes belly-up, I'll probably do the LCD thing.

#160 5 years ago

I have to apologize for asking this question as it might have been answered in this thread, which I did not read every post. Was it an original sculpt? Because Horizon made a vinyl Creature model that looks exactly like the one in the picture. It was a one sixth scale, so it was about 12" high. Light gray material used, and I believe that the arms could be rotated in the socket to get them in the same position as the one in the photo. This item was readily available in most hobby shops. It would have been easier to buy a model off the shelves than to sculpt, mold and cast, starting from scratch. I still have one of the original Horizon models. I am going to dig it up and try to compare it to the one in the photos.

#161 5 years ago

Photo of Horizon Creature model.creature.jpg

#162 5 years ago
Quoted from kbliznick:

Thought about this too, but I believe the model was custom made by Bally employees so it's Bally art.

Fortunately that actual art/ model is no longer owned by Bally or a License holder. It is the personal property of a select few people that have the models. I am all for them making a sweet green holographic picture. License holders would surely attempt to go after them but would not have much of a leg to stand on. The owner/new holographic creator could expect to see a C&D letter as that seems to be the MO from the big boys that try to toss their weight around, but it would never go much further than that.

I would feel slightly bad for Henrik since he genuinely tried to make a good product, but he also priced himself out of the market with an inferior end product.

#163 5 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

Fortunately that actual art/ model is no longer owned by Bally or a License holder. It is the personal property of a select few people that have the models. I am all for them making a sweet green holographic picture. License holders would surely attempt to go after them but would not have much of a leg to stand on. The owner/new holographic creator could expect to see a C&D letter as that seems to be the MO from the big boys that try to toss their weight around, but it would never go much further than that.
I would feel slightly bad for Henrik since he genuinely tried to make a good product, but he also priced himself out of the market with an inferior end product.

Doesn't matter who owns the physical models (and there were 4+ made). Same idea as the art on the side of the cabinet. It's a Universal license but Bally artwork so you would have to license from both. Another way to look at it would be if you acquired the original screens for the cabinet artwork, those screens alone would not give you license to make and sell cabinet decals.

#164 5 years ago

correct about the cab screens, but this is different. Screens are the medium to reproduce the IP.

The owners of the creech model can do whatever they want with it. If they want to produce a creature hologram in similar dimensions and characteristics to what was in games but put it in a frame and sell it as framed art for Creature they could very easily do so with very little rebuttal from Bally IP holders. If a buyer of that framed art opts to remove it from the frame and use it in their pinball machine they can do so after they buy it. The Creature image itself should be a rather easy to pay universal for as they seem to give it out pretty cheap based on the amount of stuff it is found on (toys and other crap). I would think the Bally IP owners would have a pretty tough time even getting a case accepted if they tried to raise one.

Either way I think it is a moot point as unfortunately Rick likes to toss his weight around but also was unable to ensure the henrik remake was of the quality needed to sell. Seems pretty obvious what the motives of the IP holders were on this project >> let Henrik take the risk and spend his effort/time, pay the IP fees, and then no real protection or insurance that he was going down the correct path or will recoup his investment. Also sounds to me like others have found very viable alternative methods to making a new holo which would not cost very much, yet the current reproductions are sitting unsold at crazy prices... Tells me something is off base with how this project all went down...

Luckily the TV screen mod is pretty damn cool as a replacement for those that have a dead hologram.

#165 5 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

correct about the cab screens, but this is different. Screens are the medium to reproduce the IP.

Not different at all. Say you own the original pencil drawings or paintings of the cab art, or the models or whatever. If the original art was made by Bally then they have the copyright on the art no matter who now physically owns the original pieces.

And yes Universal does issue small licenses for all sorts of small crap, so that one shouldn't be hard to acquire.

#166 5 years ago

I am guessing the Bally copyright is on the original hologram and/or use of a hologram in a pinball game? As noted, it is difficult to even recreate the original holo regardless of what model you use, but the actual model/s itself appears to have never been owned by Bally so they can't lay claim to it.

#167 5 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

The owners of the creech model can do whatever they want with it. If they want to produce a creature hologram in similar dimensions and characteristics to what was in games but put it in a frame and sell it as framed art for Creature they could very easily do so with very little rebuttal from Bally IP holders.

no, they can't they own the piece of art, not the license to make things from it.

#168 5 years ago

so they are not allowed to sell photos of the model if they got rights from universal due to it being of creature?

#169 5 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

correct about the cab screens, but this is different. Screens are the medium to reproduce the IP.
The owners of the creech model can do whatever they want with it. If they want to produce a creature hologram in similar dimensions and characteristics to what was in games but put it in a frame and sell it as framed art for Creature they could very easily do so with very little rebuttal from Bally IP holders. If a buyer of that framed art opts to remove it from the frame and use it in their pinball machine they can do so after they buy it. The Creature image itself should be a rather easy to pay universal for as they seem to give it out pretty cheap based on the amount of stuff it is found on (toys and other crap). I would think the Bally IP owners would have a pretty tough time even getting a case accepted if they tried to raise one.
Either way I think it is a moot point as unfortunately Rick likes to toss his weight around but also was unable to ensure the henrik remake was of the quality needed to sell. Seems pretty obvious what the motives of the IP holders were on this project >> let Henrik take the risk and spend his effort/time, pay the IP fees, and then no real protection or insurance that he was going down the correct path or will recoup his investment. Also sounds to me like others have found very viable alternative methods to making a new holo which would not cost very much, yet the current reproductions are sitting unsold at crazy prices... Tells me something is off base with how this project all went down...
Luckily the TV screen mod is pretty damn cool as a replacement for those that have a dead hologram.

ya what's off base is the greed and politics part. All these challenges will magically disappear when it's time to repro Creech. So don't worry guys - you want a new holo, you'll just have to wait and graciously give Rick your money for a whole new pin to get it. It'll be fine to step over Henrik then cause at that point Rick will "be interested" as he's said himself. So wait for the repro or vote with your dollars now and take a pass on the repro's. I'll wait for the right holo at the right price or guarantee or wait for the next run of the lcd. Assuming Rick doesn't try and poo poo that too.

#170 5 years ago

I found the original model last weekend

--Jeff

DSCF2316.jpg
#171 5 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

so they are not allowed to sell photos of the model if they got rights from universal due to it being of creature?

Depends on the company. I've purchased concept sketches for films that weren't produced with the clause that while I may own the original art piece, I don't own the right to reproduce it for another commercial product, such as a book or prints.

#172 5 years ago
Quoted from roffels:

Depends on the company. I've purchased concept sketches for films that weren't produced with the clause that while I may own the original art piece, I don't own the right to reproduce it for another commercial product, such as a book or prints.

No you wouldn't but that is not what whysnow is saying (I don't think). I believe what he's saying is that the model owner could go to universal and pay a license fee to recreate the model image onto a foil holo to be displayed as art on your wall. This removes Rick from the equation as it's not being sold to go into a pinball machine but does maintain the relationship with universal and the model holder. Where someone choses to display said art (on a wall or inside their pinball) would be up to them and thankfully Rick wouldn't need to to spend time worrying about that. That also means Rick wouldn't have to be persuaded to "be interested" as it would have nothing to do with him. He could spend his valuable time focusing on the logistics, justification$, and "be interested" in other areas around his rights he controls.

#173 5 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

but the actual model/s itself appears to have never been owned by Bally so they can't lay claim to it.

Reread this thread from the beginning. Someone in here it states how Bally created the original model/mold, used it to cast 5 other models before the mold broke, then used one of those models for the hologram. This was not something they purchased off the shelf. If it was something they purchased then they would have had to pay license to whomever made the original models.

Here is the quote from the second page of this thread:

" own one of the original 5 models. I purchased it from John Trudeau in march 2004. He emailed me info after i inquired about the models after buying some jumbo/ large creature promo patches from him. He said he had 4 of the original 5 models. #1 was painted in shades of grey for the hologram shoot at Polaroid. This went back to the artist/ sculptor Jerry Pinsler. Another was painted by john and he said it was on his fireplace mantle(at least it was in 2004). One of the other 3 was sold with a creature pin by John in early 2004. I purchased 1 in march 2004 leaving one more either still in Johns posession or sold to ??? Mine is unpainted and signed #5 of 5 John Trudeau on on the bottom of one of his feet and Doctor Flash inside a lightning bolt under the other foot. He told me the original mold fell apart after 5 castings were made. It had originally only been planned to make 2 models total."

Jerry Pinsler was either an employee of Bally/Williams or a contractor at the time this was made.
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1996-05-29/news/9605290090_1_design-career-design-resources-lung-cancer

#174 5 years ago
Quoted from kbliznick:

Reread this thread from the beginning. Someone in here it states how Bally created the original model/mold, used it to cast 5 other models before the mold broke, then used one of those models for the hologram. This was not something they purchased off the shelf. If it was something they purchased then they would have had to pay license to whomever made the original models.
Here is the quote from the second page of this thread:
" own one of the original 5 models. I purchased it from John Trudeau in march 2004. He emailed me info after i inquired about the models after buying some jumbo/ large creature promo patches from him. He said he had 4 of the original 5 models. #1 was painted in shades of grey for the hologram shoot at Polaroid. This went back to the artist/ sculptor Jerry Pinsler. Another was painted by john and he said it was on his fireplace mantle(at least it was in 2004). One of the other 3 was sold with a creature pin by John in early 2004. I purchased 1 in march 2004 leaving one more either still in Johns posession or sold to ??? Mine is unpainted and signed #5 of 5 John Trudeau on on the bottom of one of his feet and Doctor Flash inside a lightning bolt under the other foot. He told me the original mold fell apart after 5 castings were made. It had originally only been planned to make 2 models total."
Jerry Pinsler was either an employee of Bally/Williams or a contractor at the time this was made.
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1996-05-29/news/9605290090_1_design-career-design-resources-lung-cancer

So Rick holds control over the existing models as they were created by bally? Interesting. Oh well there's still the lcd mod.

#175 5 years ago

Or if someone had a ruined black hologram, you can make a master from it and make more:

http://www.nli-ltd.com/publications/hologram_counterfeiting.php

#176 5 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Or if someone had a ruined black hologram, you can make a master from it and make more:
http://www.nli-ltd.com/publications/hologram_counterfeiting.php

Man you guys keep proving my point!

#177 5 years ago

Funny, there were two dudes selling holograms for $100 in the parking lot at a recent pinball show. They were pretty savvy as they had their license plates off of both vehicles.

#178 5 years ago

Creating a hologram of the creature to be framed and put on the wall isn't a Williams "part." My original point was that Williams doesn't have any say if Universal chooses to allow a hologram of the creature to be made as long as its intended use isn't to be put in a game. A company could easily come along and want to make creature holograms for people to frame and put on their wall ...lunchboxes....mugs.....etc of the various universal monster characters. I remember seeing hologram stores in the mall when I was younger that sold things like that all the time. Now, what people decide to do with the hologram picture is up to them. If someone can get hold of one of the models and do what the original poster is wanting to do they could simply sell them on ebay as framed artwork. Framed artwork is not a Bally/Williams part.

#180 5 years ago

pps owns the right to make certified Bally/Williams pinball parts, it does not own the creature model because the model isn't a part of the game.

Quoted from Hobbypinball:

So Rick holds control over the existing models as they were created by bally? Interesting. Oh well there's still the lcd mod.

#181 5 years ago
Quoted from FishPharm:

Creating a hologram of the creature to be framed and put on the wall isn't a Williams "part." My original point was that Williams doesn't have any say if Universal chooses to allow a hologram of the creature to be made as long as its intended use isn't to be put in a game.

Correct, as long as that creature figure in the hologram is an original design by the creator of the hologram or something that was not created by Bally. However the main problem with all of the repro holograms to date is that the creature in these repros does not look like the original one. That is the main complaint (well that and the ridiculous price tag on the last repro). People want the repro to look 100% original. To do that would require recreating/borrowing the original Bally figure, that even though they might not physically own the model they still own the copyright on it.

#182 5 years ago
Quoted from FishPharm:

pps owns the right to make certified Bally/Williams pinball parts, it does not own the creature model because the model isn't a part of the game.

Last post on this because it's getting old.
PPS owns the license to make Bally/Williams pinball parts.
WMS might no longer own any of the physical models but they own the copyright on the model.

#183 5 years ago
Quoted from kbliznick:

Last post on this because it's getting old.
PPS owns the license to make Bally/Williams pinball parts.
WMS might no longer own any of the physical models but they own the copyright on the model.

From what I understand, Bally/Williams has a copyright on the hologram image I doubt that they have any copyright on the models because they were intended for a one time use and not to be sold or reproduced for their inclusion in a game. The person who "claims" that they have one of the originals on here never even mentioned any copyright symbols on the piece so I doubt they were even copyrighted. Its the hologram or the master hologram or whatever they used to reproduce the holograms that is copyrighted. Acquiring the rights to make holograms from the creature image wouldn't be hard to get and selling them in frames on Ebay or whatever would be a piece of cake. The only obstacle I see is getting someone to let us use the model.....keep PPS out of the equation. Besides, there are all kinds of companies around that have been printing and silk screening all kinds of decals and crap for arcade games and i don't see them running. Selling these holograms a few at a time on Ebay or craigslist is the way to go.

#184 5 years ago
Quoted from FishPharm:

Creating a hologram of the creature to be framed and put on the wall isn't a Williams "part." My original point was that Williams doesn't have any say if Universal chooses to allow a hologram of the creature to be made as long as its intended use isn't to be put in a game. A company could easily come along and want to make creature holograms for people to frame and put on their wall ...lunchboxes....mugs.....etc of the various universal monster characters. I remember seeing hologram stores in the mall when I was younger that sold things like that all the time. Now, what people decide to do with the hologram picture is up to them. If someone can get hold of one of the models and do what the original poster is wanting to do they could simply sell them on ebay as framed artwork. Framed artwork is not a Bally/Williams part.

This is true IF you're not using Bally's intellectual property. You design your own Creature statue, and make a hologram, you don't need authorization from Bally/Williams. If you use the same statue produced/commissioned by Bally, you might if this is done legally.

#185 5 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

so they are not allowed to sell photos of the model if they got rights from universal due to it being of creature?

Generally, no. Unless they can prorove a fair use issue, which seems unlikely since this would be nothing more than an attempt to use someone else's IP for your own profit. Different story if they were taking a photo of a hologram and putting it into a book on pinball. In that case you would be using their IP but using it in a different form that would not be an infringement. But at the same time you wouldn't be able to start taking pics of all sorts of Universal IP and selling a book with the universal name on it without their permission.

#186 5 years ago
Quoted from FishPharm:

The person who "claims" that they have one of the originals on here never even mentioned any copyright symbols on the piece so I doubt they were even copyrighted.

you don't need to "get" a copyright, its just makes it easier to enforce down the lne:

In all countries where the Berne Convention standards apply, copyright is automatic, and need not be obtained through official registration with any government office. Once an idea has been reduced to tangible form, for example by securing it in a fixed medium (such as a drawing, sheet music, photograph, a videotape, or a computer file), the copyright holder is entitled to enforce his or her exclusive rights.[10] However, while registration isn't needed to exercise copyright, in jurisdictions where the laws provide for registration, it serves as prima facie evidence of a valid copyright and enables the copyright holder to seek statutory damages and attorney's fees. (In the USA, registering after an infringement only enables one to receive actual damages and lost profits.)

#188 5 years ago

no matter what the legality, given the limited quantity these will sell at in total (maybe a couples hundred) the best option is to make them and then sell them at shows in parking lots (second hand >> i.e. you "bought them from someone else a long time ago and are uncertain of origin") and also dump short bursts on ebay via an overseas shell account.

Plenty of ways to stick it to the man when he is unwilling to get the job done right the first time

#189 5 years ago

This blow back on the IP protection b.s was inevitable. This is a hobby and hobbyist will always try to make the games better and no one can't stifle that spirit.

#190 5 years ago
Quoted from kvan99:

This blow back on the IP protection b.s was inevitable. This is a hobby and hobbyist will always try to make the games better and no one can't stifle that spirit.

Rick's got a better idea though. Just wait for the repro and everyone can have their holo. It'll just cost you 8 large is all

#191 5 years ago

Well here is what we learned so for on this project. There are five models out there 1: one model John Trudeau. 2: one model ultimategameroom. 3: one model Jerry Pinsler. 4: one model pinball factory. 5: one model another pinsider unknown. A company here in the USA that could make a quality hologram. The cost to make a hologram even imaging the model at a decent price. I believe the best chance within the last 20 years to make a exact original hologram with all the information we learned with this trend. Probably will never get made.

I felt from all of PPS statements made in this post the real issue was going to be getting permission to make these. As I stated in a earlier post number one problem receiving a license to make these. I felt with all the models out there one of them would be willing to help us with this project. If you go back and read everything than you can see it all falls into place. PPS talked about the cost would be very expensive to image the model and make each hologram even if you could find the model to use. Which isn't as bad as he said it would be. Next was the cost to get a license and royalties another very expensive process. Which I believe isn't as high as they want you to believe it is. As I posted earlier what would it cost for a limited edition run. Which Rick could make his money off this since he holds the license to these parts and universal would get there cut. So this would be legal and everyone gets what they want. Just would like to know how expensive this would be. Than decide if it worth the risk.

I guess what makes me mad. This hologram that is out there now would of been researched better than it was we wouldn't be in this situation. Before this post Rick and Hendrik had no model or picture to make there hologram. Since there was no model in Williams stockroom they went and talked to a professor. I am no rocket scientist but I would of called John the designer to hear what he new about the hologram. Mistakes happen. We are making another mistake from the last mistake. So we all lose again.

#192 5 years ago

I say hire this guy to make an updated one for you. Needs to be scarier, right?

http://www.dominicqwek.com/product/gillman/

#193 5 years ago
Quoted from creaturemonster:

Well here is what we learned so for on this project. There are five models out there 1: one model John Trudeau. 2: one model ultimategameroom. 3: one model Jerry Pinsler. 4: one model pinball factory. 5: one model another pinsider unknown. A company here in the USA that could make a quality hologram. The cost to make a hologram even imaging the model at a decent price. I believe the best chance within the last 20 years to make a exact original hologram with all the information we learned with this trend. Probably will never get made.
I felt from all of PPS statements made in this post the real issue was going to be getting permission to make these. As I stated in a earlier post number one problem receiving a license to make these. I felt with all the models out there one of them would be willing to help us with this project. If you go back and read everything than you can see it all falls into place. PPS talked about the cost would be very expensive to image the model and make each hologram even if you could find the model to use. Which isn't as bad as he said it would be. Next was the cost to get a license and royalties another very expensive process. Which I believe isn't as high as they want you to believe it is. As I posted earlier what would it cost for a limited edition run. Which Rick could make his money off this since he holds the license to these parts and universal would get there cut. So this would be legal and everyone gets what they want. Just would like to know how expensive this would be. Than decide if it worth the risk.
I guess what makes me mad. This hologram that is out there now would of been researched better than it was we wouldn't be in this situation. Before this post Rick and Hendrik had no model or picture to make there hologram. Since there was no model in Williams stockroom they went and talked to a professor. I am no rocket scientist but I would of called John the designer to hear what he new about the hologram. Mistakes happen. We are making another mistake from the last mistake. So we all lose again.

I appreciate all your efforts on this. I wish it would all come together, but mark my word, there will be no sanctioned repro holo until it all magically comes together for CFTBL-repro machine. Then suddenly all these challenges will disappear as Rick will "be intere$ted". Holo's will be available then, but they'll still be $300+ with no assurance to their longevity. Personally I think there is a way to move the hobby forward while still making some money. My take away from watching Rick's posts closely since the MMr announcement is that his business acumen and stance is more aligned with the $ side of all this. That's his choice - he owns the rights. But personally I've come to the realization I just can't support him. At some point the customer is always right though, so I'll take some solace in that.

Off to play WOZ. peace out

#194 5 years ago

Rick isn't doing this "for the love of pinball"?

#195 5 years ago
Quoted from MrBally:

Rick isn't doing this "for the love of pinball"?

Nobody does it just and only for the love. I wouldn't either. When good things aren't happening due to politics and or greed though then things are out of balance. But as with all things out of balance there'll be a correction at some point.

#196 5 years ago

If someone wants to get this project done and can really get these made for a reasonable cost and accurate to originals then let me know and I am happy to help you get these sold under the table.

When the "man" is keeping you down, sometimes he needs to get kicked in the junk. Plenty of ways to get these sold and let him chase down deadends to try and protect his rented IPs.

#197 5 years ago
Quoted from Hobbypinball:

I appreciate all your efforts on this. I wish it would all come together, but mark my word, there will be no sanctioned repro holo until it all magically comes together for CFTBL-repro machine. Then suddenly all these challenges will disappear as Rick will "be intere$ted". Holo's will be available then, but they'll still be $300+ with no assurance to their longevity. Personally I think there is a way to move the hobby forward while still making some money. My take away from watching Rick's posts closely since the MMr announcement is that his business acumen and stance is more aligned with the $ side of all this. That's his choice - he owns the rights. But personally I've come to the realization I just can't support him. At some point the customer is always right though, so I'll take some solace in that.
Off to play WOZ. peace out

I agree but I'm fairly certain that when CFTBL gets made again you won't be seeing the holograms you are wanting in the machines. What you will find is the ridiculous ones that they can't and never will get rid of for $300 on the website. It's kind of sad how the people who are able to make these original machine whole again will choose another path. It is for this very reason why there is a black market. I only wish that I had one of these models because the last thing I would want to do to fellow game enthusiasts would be to cock tease them with something that I had they need to make their machines complete. So I agree with Hobbypinball, spend your money elsewhere.

#198 5 years ago
Quoted from PPS:

The supplier on this attempted to do exactly what is being done here ... make as close to original...

I'm sorry to say: with all due respect Rick, the final product looks nothing like the original other than its color.

Quoted from PPS:

Imagine you take a risk and invest, and then we were to just say let's make another one ...

If the final result of my effort was so far off in appearance from the original, I'd actually accept that as a possibility.

Now the possibility of using the original model is a game changer—and thanks to Creaturemonster, we now know where several are. (Thanks to Ultimategameroom too for stepping forward with the news of his.)

It's more than reasonable to predict that a near-perfect result could now FINALLY be achieved with some collaboration/cooperation .

#199 5 years ago

One question, if a hologram can be counterfeited then why do we even care who has a dusty ass model anyways? Vid posted link link above stating how to do it, and although I don't understand any of it, I am sure those people that do holograms for a living would.

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