(Topic ID: 82128)

CFTBL Found photo of original model used for hologram. Need your HELP!!


By creaturemonster

5 years ago



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  • 199 posts
  • 59 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 5 years ago by Capper96
  • Topic is favorited by 9 Pinsiders

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There are 199 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 4.
#1 5 years ago

I was looking at my book The Pinball Compendium 1982 to present and came across this photo. After looking at it you can see that this was the model used for the hologram. That is John Trudeau and wanted to know if anyone is good friends with him to see if he still has these models or maybe he knows who has them. This would be nice with all the great people on here to see if we can find this model. So if anyone out there could contact John to see if he still has them that would be awesome!
I know Mike has the LCD and Henrik has a hologram which are very nice but if we can find the original model I would like Rick and Henrik to make this hologram using the original model.
So lets see if pinside can find this model. !!
Thanks Joe

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#2 5 years ago

Update: I received a message from another pinsider that John gave the model to another collector. He no longer has it. The person that has it will not let anyone borrow it to make another hologram. I believe Henrik tried to borrow model but could not get it. So he had to make his own based only on the hologram.
Since he didn't have a photo and I have this picture I now know the size and shape and angles of the creature. I know two sculptures that make a lot of universal statues, 1 sculptures and so on. They have done some great stuff. I will take pics of them and post to show how much detail they put into there work. I am waiting on a 1 of the creature head when I receive item I will post the pictures.
My thought is to send this photo to these guys to see what they think and go from there.
Joe

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#3 5 years ago

Is the person who has the original model that much of a selfish asshole that he won't let someone borrow it and use it under his watch to be able to scan the thing to make a new hologram??

#4 5 years ago

Hit bat, his ball, his game.

#5 5 years ago

What a shitbag.

#6 5 years ago
Quoted from MXV:

Is the person who has the original model that much of a selfish asshole that he won't let someone borrow it and use it under his watch to be able to scan the thing to make a new hologram??

Isn't that Henrik guy overseas? Even barring that, you don't know anything about the person that owns it. Could be he can't afford to travel. I would assume he's probably more worried about someone attempting to make knockoff statuettes than reproduction holos. If nobody has scans or detailed pics of it, makes it kind of hard for that to occur doesn't it?

#7 5 years ago
Quoted from Frax:

Isn't that Henrik guy overseas? Even barring that, you don't know anything about the person that owns it. Could be he can't afford to travel. I would assume he's probably more worried about someone attempting to make knockoff statuettes than reproduction holos. If nobody has scans or detailed pics of it, makes it kind of hard for that to occur doesn't it?

Yeah, Henrik is based in Germany I think. I'd also be awfully careful it that were my Creature. However, with all the current technology available, there had to have been some way to get this done without risk to either party. I know it took Henrik quite awhile to get his model made--and then it wasn't all that close of a replica, anyway...

#8 5 years ago
Quoted from creaturemonster:

Update: I received a message from another pinsider that John gave the model to another collector. He no longer has it.

What about the second one in the picture?

Congrats on your efforts BTW!

#9 5 years ago
Quoted from MXV:

Is the person who has the original model that much of a selfish asshole that he won't let someone borrow it and use it under his watch to be able to scan the thing to make a new hologram??

From what I recall on this topic in the past, it's not that he doesn't want to "lend" it out--it's that his nobody's willing to pay his price.

Rumor is he's asking a King's Ransom.

If this is true, it's such a shame a compromise can't be reached.

Maybe presell the units or something.

Point is do something before it's too late--there's only one of them (what if it gets burned in a fire or something)...the other one might be toast IIRC.

#10 5 years ago
Quoted from Frax:

Isn't that Henrik guy overseas? Even barring that, you don't know anything about the person that owns it. Could be he can't afford to travel. I would assume he's probably more worried about someone attempting to make knockoff statuettes than reproduction holos. If nobody has scans or detailed pics of it, makes it kind of hard for that to occur doesn't it?

Yes, God forbid his precious toy become devalued somehow and then he would lose his bragging rights and reason for living. I've never met the guy but his selfish actions make him an asshole and I'd also wager he's the type of person who would buy a NIB pin, open it, stick in a bunch of LED's and suddenly feel it is worth $1,000 more than it was before he opened it and he views all his pinball purchases as investments.

With modern technology that model can be scanned easily with very little risk or need to travel by the owner of that piece of "rare plastic". There is not a single argument anyone can come up with that will try and convince me that the guy who has that model isn't a selfish prick.

#11 5 years ago

And if you think about it, technically that model was the property of WMS and not the game designer. Hell the CEO in a company wide meeting once told the entire company that he actually owns our dreams and legally he was correct if those dreams were of a nature even remotely tied to the business. If someone really wanted to make a case about it they could declare it stolen goods. In theory the model was never the designer's to give away or sell as that was a piece of tooling that belonged to the company. Now that never stopped countless items from leaving the building or ending up in the possession of various employees without anyone caring, but a case could probably be made that the current owner of the model is sitting on something that doesn't belong to him, or the designer, and would need to be returned to WMS or its licensee. I don't know if there's a statute of limitations on stolen goods or not but some lawyer who is also a pinball fan might want to look that up if there's a hope of using the real deal to remake the holograms correctly and the guy is holding it ransom.

#12 5 years ago
Quoted from MXV:

And if you think about it, technically that model was the property of WMS and not the game designer. Hell the CEO in a company wide meeting once told the entire company that he actually owns our dreams and legally he was correct if those dreams were of a nature even remotely tied to the business. If someone really wanted to make a case about it they could declare it stolen goods. In theory the model was never the designer's to give away or sell as that was a piece of tooling that belonged to the company. Now that never stopped countless items from leaving the building or ending up in the possession of various employees without anyone caring, but a case could probably be made that the current owner of the model is sitting on something that doesn't belong to him, or the designer, and would need to be returned to WMS or its licensee. I don't know if there's a statute of limitations on stolen goods or not but some lawyer who is also a pinball fan might want to look that up if there's a hope of using the real deal to remake the holograms correctly and the guy is holding it ransom.

sigh...

#13 5 years ago

This may be a long shot but maybe the person who took the picture has other shots taken of the model. The picture lists who the photographer was. Maybe he selected this shot out of a series of other shots.

#14 5 years ago

NM I really don't know about the second model. I know the picture was taken with his daughters CFTBL machine so maybe John gave her the other model. Why two models anyway? My thought is the person John gave the model to would have a CFTBL so what his he going to do when his hologram goes bad.
I don't know what his price was if that was the case but if Henrik spent 600 hours of labor to produce his hologram maybe his price would of been worth it.
Up until now nobody new what this model looked like and was guessing when they made there hologram.
I believe this is the only picture of the model out there. I think with this picture now and a great sculpture which I know two that could make a excellent model. At least we can make a better looking creature hologram than what is out there.
For the hell of it I will ask the pinsider to talk to him and see if he would take some pictures of the model and send to him or how much he would want to borrow model. I can have a hologram made here in USA instead of shipping model to Germany if he was afraid something happening to model. With overseas shipping things seem to get lost at times. There has to be some company here that can make a 3D Hologram with all the technology we have.
First lets see what the person that holds the model has to say. I was told he didn't want anyone to borrow model but with these recent post maybe there is a price that he would share the model.

#15 5 years ago

MXV You brought up a good point which makes me wonder. Maybe WMS has the master hologram. Than you really don't need the model. You could use master hologram to make another run. Unless the master hologram went bad or was lost. I don't know who you would contact for this.
FishPharm I contacted Jim and he was going to send me the file on that photo so I could make a larger picture from it. But with the understanding that I would not post are sell copies of the picture. I didn't think to ask if he had any other pictures with the models. l will ask.

#16 5 years ago
Quoted from MXV:

and I'd also wager he's the type of person who would buy a NIB pin, open it, stick in a bunch of LED's and suddenly feel it is worth $1,000 more than it was before he opened it and he views all his pinball purchases as investments.

Soo.....typical pinsider????

#17 5 years ago
Quoted from creaturemonster:

Maybe WMS has the master hologram.

Why would Rick go through all that headache if he could have just grabbed it? If anyone would have access to such a thing he would.

#18 5 years ago
Quoted from creaturemonster:

NM I really don't know about the second model. I know the picture was taken with his daughters CFTBL machine so maybe John gave her the other model. Why two models anyway?

I researched some old favorites I had stored and found this from Martin & Pam Reynolds' site Pinbits:

"2) The master hologram has been lost (probably looked like a piece of dirty glass)

3) The original model is unavailable. It appears that The Pinball Factory has a green one, and there may be another in private hands."

Original link: http://www.iobium.com/creature_hologram.htm

#19 5 years ago
Quoted from Aurich:

Why would Rick go through all that headache if he could have just grabbed it? If anyone would have access to such a thing he would.

Exactly ,,, a road that has been well traveled and has lots of dead ends ... the holograms that are out will satisfy most, and for better or worse the business proposition of doing yet another one would be beyond dismal ...

#20 5 years ago
Quoted from creaturemonster:

MXV You brought up a good point which makes me wonder. Maybe WMS has the master hologram. Than you really don't need the model. You could use master hologram to make another run. Unless the master hologram went bad or was lost. I don't know who you would contact for this.
FishPharm I contacted Jim and he was going to send me the file on that photo so I could make a larger picture from it. But with the understanding that I would not post are sell copies of the picture. I didn't think to ask if he had any other pictures with the models. l will ask.

It's doubtful they would have it. They never saved anything because they always looked forward and wouldn't run a game a second time (TAFG being the only exception) once its production run ended because they would just move on to the next game.

#21 5 years ago

Original mold can be scanned with a 3 d scanner and recreated with a 3d printer now. Mold would never be touched.. But there are two good options out there now. No need

#22 5 years ago

Why would it matter having the original? There are sooo many reference photos of the Creature from any angle. A good sculptor could probably come up with something better.

Creature Nice Body shot.jpg
#23 5 years ago

Sigh..

http://www.needlessthingssite.com/2013/07/toy-review-universal-monsters-creature.html

Just use that one, looks better than the original IMO, and as a bonus the community can tell the scrub that won't work with the pinball community to f off

#24 5 years ago

NM: Your last post was full of nice information really enjoyed reading.
Aurich: I only been on pinside about six months. I am not sure who has what out there. Kind of new to me I am no expert. Thankfully WMS didn't have the models. Maybe some one has the master hologram. All I know is that according to reading all past post that there was no model or picture to make a exact hologram. Within a week I found a picture and with pinsides help we know some one has a model and the other green model is at the Pinball Factory.
Here are some pics of the two sculptors. The creature done by Kyle a artist at FX. Frankenstein by Brian

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#25 5 years ago
Quoted from creaturemonster:

Aurich: I only been on pinside about six months. I am not sure who has what out there. Kind of new to me I am no expert. Thankfully WMS didn't have the models.

No worries, but why "thankfully"? If WMS had the models I'm sure Rick would have used them for the repro. WMS isn't the bad guy here.

#26 5 years ago

Very nice Creature and (Glen Strange) Frankenstein!

#27 5 years ago

I don't mean to be a dick here but this chaps my ass to a small degree. Henrik goes through all the trouble to have a model made and to have the Holo made and all I see or hear is people bitching that it is to expensive or it isn't exactly the same as the original. So fucking what. Its a hell of a lot better than a blue or black one or nothing at all and it actually looks better than the original. Its a wonder people go through the effort at all to put these products out. Do you really think that he would remake these things with the original after spending the money to have it made with a new model or that he had not exhausted every effort to obtain the original model?

#28 5 years ago
Quoted from zr11990:

Do you really think that he would remake these things with the original after spending the money to have it made with a new model or that he had not exhausted every effort to obtain the original model?

^^^^^^^^ Should have just stuck with this and not this...

Quoted from zr11990:

I don't mean to be a dick here but this chaps my ass to a small degree. Henrik goes through all the trouble to have a model made and to have the Holo made and all I see or hear is people bitching that it is to expensive or it isn't exactly the same as the original. So fucking what. Its a hell of a lot better than a blue or black one or nothing at all and it actually looks better than the original. Its a wonder people go through the effort at all to put these products out

If it is being marketed as a reproduction, then it should look like the reproduction. If it is being marketed as an alternative, most people would have zero complaints about it. Simple fact of the matter is that it doesn't look like the original and is NOT a reproduction.

Looking at the description it reads like "All of the things you love about the original, but not original"
http://www.planetarypinball.com/product/product-name-rec7/

#29 5 years ago
Quoted from zr11990:

Its a hell of a lot better than a blue or black one or nothing at all and it actually looks better than the original.

I respect your opinion, but completely disagree.

#30 5 years ago
Quoted from zr11990:

I don't mean to be a dick here but this chaps my ass to a small degree. Henrik goes through all the trouble to have a model made and to have the Holo made and all I see or hear is people bitching that it is to expensive or it isn't exactly the same as the original. So fucking what. Its a hell of a lot better than a blue or black one or nothing at all and it actually looks better than the original. Its a wonder people go through the effort at all to put these products out. Do you really think that he would remake these things with the original after spending the money to have it made with a new model or that he had not exhausted every effort to obtain the original model?

Of COURSE it's better than nothing...this helps a lot of owners who have nothing.

Great interim part--but it shouldn't be the final replacement part for the title.

Point was/is: to strive for perfection/improvement (on the next one):

To attain a clone that's so close, it's impossible to differentiate it from the original from the playing position.

#31 5 years ago

My 2 cents:
zr11990 I don't think your a dick. I am glad that you like new hologram. To be honest I hope more people think like you than me and purchase the new hologram and they sell out. I get upset hearing that we don't appreciate what Rick and Henrik have done. I was one of the first to get the new ramps for CFTBL. I bought them from Henrik in Germany before they were here in USA. What ever parts that they had there hand in bowl, window, plastic set, speaker panel plastic, ramps and the decals for the box. I purchased all these parts for my machine and are excellent reproduction parts which I am grateful for.
There were no repro holograms at that time and I bought a NOS hologram trying to make my machine look as new as possible. Nobody wanted to make them because of the expense. First attempt failure. So should we just gave up than and said they already made one. No Henrik wanted to do better. Which it is better than anything out there. He wanted the hologram to look like the original and I am thankful for the effort. Could Henrik have made a better hologram having a picture or the original model? I believe the answer would be yes. If we could make something that you couldn't tell the difference from the original why wouldn't we. Isn't this what Henrik was trying to achieve. This information that I am researching is for the next one. I would like to see a EXACT or better hologram made in the future and I believe it can be done.

#32 5 years ago

Just a little treat for us Creature fans....

Ben_Julie_holds_head.jpg
#33 5 years ago

Good luck. This might get interesting. Keep us informed.

#34 5 years ago

Hey spfxted: Love the pictures. Thanks for the compliment on the sculptors.

#35 5 years ago

Guys ... I can always be wrong but ... live with the hologram that you have why?

- the ability to get the original statue is near zero
- if one were to get the original statue, then the ability to transport and take the risk that it would be lost or destroyed would limit where anything could be done (not Europe)
- if one were to get the original status and then get it done in a safe location, then the costs would still be very very high (I spent alot of time talking to the 'experts' in the US on this)
- then if that all above were to happen, then there are few buyers as the existing hologram has already been sold and there is not enough demand now due to that.

Given the inability to do that, Henrik reversed engineered with a competant sculpters to recreate a 3D image from an existing hologram - can you imagine how difficult (and expensive that is?), and then to re-image that to another hologram at which point you will see if there are any differences (due to the perspective, three dimensional aspects, etc). Then only when the hologram master is created (and the major about of the hologram cost) will you see if there are any differences - and if so, you would need almost go back to square one and modify the sculpture and then re-image the hologram ... so Henrik was already in over his head $-wise on this and took a big risk to do what he did and I feel that is what should be appreciated - we will have a hologram that is very good and is designed to not fail in peoples closets over time (and they have no recourse to get their money back).

my views.

rick@planetarypinball.com

#36 5 years ago
Quoted from PPS:

if so, you would need almost go back to square one and modify the sculpture and then re-image the hologram

You're the man for the job.

Quoted from PPS:

can you imagine how difficult (and expensive that is?),

Indeed, but 20-year old NOS WMS holograms have been consistently selling on Ebay in the $900+ ballpark last time I checked a couple years ago...perhaps they're even more now.

Point being: people WILL pony up for the original image/real hologram.

That's why I suggested if you can clone the image exactly somehow someway one day, presell them on firm commitments due in full due to the circumstances.

Henrick's effort was noble and appreciated--but IMO, until there's a 100% identical reproduction hologram...there'll always be a void in this title/in the hobby.

#37 5 years ago

There is always a curve as to what people would pay on ebay - if one sells on ebay for $900, then the next couple would sell for way less, and then more for way less than that, so $900 is not the average price, as well as even with the ones that we have there is a little demand, so now there is very little demand. Doing a hologram is probably $10K+ to do and the cost per hologram is very high (i'm not sure why but they are), so it takes alot of them to sell to make back that money ... i.e. it's not gonna happen. I expect there will never be a 100% identical reproduction, so with that I'm spending my time on other topics. Pre-selling this type of item on firm committments is a mirage in pinball parts ... so I'm putting the topic to rest ... sorry, I wish things were easy as people think but they are not in this case.

#38 5 years ago

A little OT, but I went to the EMP museum in Seattle yesterday and in a classic horror film exhibit there was the original mask worn in the movie. I didn't catch who owned it, but most of the collection belonged to Microsoft co-founder Paul Allen, so it's probably his.

P1010926.JPG
#39 5 years ago

We couldn't run an add that said no portuguese...but um...no portuguese

#40 5 years ago
Quoted from PhilGreg:

A little OT, but I went to the EMP museum in Seattle yesterday and in a classic horror film exhibit there was the original mask worn in the movie.

Looks great....but there were MANY masks used for the film.

Ben_suits_Westmore.jpg
#41 5 years ago
Quoted from PPS:

Pre-selling this type of item on firm committments is a mirage in pinball parts ...

Well then obviously round-file the pre-sale idea and base a future business-decision off of this:

Quoted from PPS:

Doing a hologram is probably $10K+ to do and the cost per hologram is very high (i'm not sure why but they are), so it takes alot of them to sell to make back that money ...

A $10,000 investment at $350 per unit is only 28 units sold to break even.

My guess is a lot more 28 people would purchase despite both current replacement options (7841 games produced).

Also guessing, some hobbyists would buy 2 or 3 to have a lifetime supply.

I'd take 3 myself.

Quoted from PPS:

i.e. it's not gonna happen.

Ultimately your call of course--was just a future suggestion for possible improvement after current inventory is exhausted, and/or if an original statue surfaces one day--or if an identical statue is actually commissioned and sculpted (which would of course add to the final cost per unit).

Either way: a big thanks to you and Henrick for what you've provided the hobby to date.

#42 5 years ago
Quoted from PhilGreg:

A little OT, but I went to the EMP museum in Seattle yesterday and in a classic horror film exhibit there was the original mask worn in the movie. I didn't catch who owned it, but most of the collection belonged to Microsoft co-founder Paul Allen, so it's probably his.

P1010926.JPG 29 KB

Looks rough, although it has been 60 years I guess. That one kind of looks like it was used in either of the sequels, maybe The Creature Walks Among Us - as the side gills are missing.

#43 5 years ago

John said in his seminar on Saturday that he had one of the models in his closet collecting dust and that the model was two pieces with one arm being a separate piece. He talked about one being painted gray for the hologram and that he painted the other green for himself. I don't recall why two were made. The seminar was recorded at Louisville and will probably be made available somehow.
Sorry if this was already pre-existing knowledge. I did not read all the posts in the thread.

#44 5 years ago

Dang...
somebody took a better pic than I did, and it looks like there is a marquee back there - cut off just before the name of the movie and the owner:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/laura-kali/10549986504/

#45 5 years ago

It's funny how many Wms parts are kept in secrecy. I found the pinball circus parts and play fields a few years ago.
Wonder what else is hidden!

#46 5 years ago

PhilGreg: Nice photo! From what I read about this there were two styles of masks made. A land one which Ben Chapman wore and had eyes and the under water mask no eyes which Ricco Browning used. They said the under water mask didn't need as much detail so thats why you don't see gills. Another fact was at first Ricco had a air tank and goggles under his suit and mask. The goggles would fill up with water and he couldn't see or get the water out with the mask on, so all the scenes shot was him holding his breath.

#47 5 years ago
Quoted from creaturemonster:

so all the scenes shot was him holding his breath.

Sort of. Ricou (correct spelling) is a friend of mine. They had guys with air tubes hidden around. He would go limp and that was the signal for them to come over and give him air.
....here is a pic of Ricou with the original "helmet"...this was later thrown out in favor of the new design.

creature_prototype.jpg
#48 5 years ago

Here we go, that would make sense.
So there you have it folks, original underwater mask from the CFTBL movie, from the Paul Allen collection. Probably.

#49 5 years ago

Do you know how you can tell the difference between Ricou Browning and Ben Chapman in the Creature suits?

#50 5 years ago
Quoted from spfxted:

....here is a pic of Ricou with the original "helmet"...this was later thrown out in favor of the new design.

I'm glad they made the switch. That original mask is too alien and angry looking. I much prefer the more amphibian and natural face that we all know and love. Keeps the creature menacing but also endearing and able to withstand the test of time.

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