CfH Spirit of 76 / Pioneer: Bonus Count Down

Hi pinsiders
"Call for Help" --- in another topic we try to fix the mentioned feature (Spirit of 76). I am close to believe in Voodoo-Magic or little gremlins at work --- or maybe we have a behavior "strange to us" --- but normal / happens to be that way in a fully running such pin (?).

Do You have an schematics of Pioneer ? Please look-up the "area schematics 19-E,F,G,H,I" --- does this looks exactly like my JPG, E-Relay and O-Relay and the wiring and switches ? Please write about and/or show this area.

Nick (in the other post) writes about "O-Relay pulls-in - let-go --- pulls-in - let-go etc. EXACTLY five times on a Motor-Turn, FIVE PULSES --- BUT: The O-Relay does NOT pull-in and stay pulled. Strange to me --- is this a "normal behaviour - ghost to me" or a fault ? When You have an running Spirit of 76 / Pioneer: Please look at the O-Relay at the time the Bonus is stepped down when a ball is lost --- does YOUR pin shows "FIVE PULSES on the O-Relay" ? - or does the O-Relay not actuate while the Bonus is counted down - then pulling-in and stay pulling for "to kick-over the ball to the shooter alley ? Please write about.

Do You have an SteveFury-Testlight (made of two 12Volt car-lamps) ? See "encircled Yellow" in my JPG --- when You mount Your Testlight, connecting to the Coil on O-Relay --- do You get short flashes of light ? --- or do You have "either dark - or shining steady (as the O-Relay is steady pulling)" ?

The "other topic" is this: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/gottlieb-spirit-of-76-bonus-countdown --- some 26 posts --- some testing done - no success so far - please write "here" or join "the other topic". Greetings Rolf

P.S. I believe this happens in an running pin (NO pulsing on/of the O-Relay): A ball is lost and enters the Outhole - some Bonus are on the Bonus-Counter. Along my green lines "Initial Current flows and makes the (6) E-Bonus-Unit-Score-Relay pull-in. It lets the Motor do a turn, also actuates all its switches - so "Self-Hold-Circuitry is established along my orange line". This will be cut by the (late) opening of "my switch 8" - the E-Relay let go.
IF (if, if) there are some more Bonus to be counted down: "The written above" is done a second time.
IF (if, if) there are no more Bonus: Along "my lightblue wiring" the O-Relay gets Initial-Current, pulls-in, stays pulling (Self-Hold-Circuitry is the darkblue wiring) - makes the motor run and finally (closing Score-Motor-Switch-4C): Kicks the Ball over to the shooter alley.

0Spirit76-Work-16 (resized).jpg

#2 6 years ago

JEF

jeffc

Pinside member

12y 91,550 2,166

From Pioneer (ignore the circle markings):

Pioneer schematic (resized).jpg

#3 6 years ago

rolf_martin_062

Inactive member

Hi jeffc
thanks for the snippet of schematics of Pioneer. It looks the same as in Spirit of 76 --- most likely the wiring in a running pin is wired as shown in the two schematics. If we do have no luck (other topic) in "looking and testing": We may have to unsolder the original wires from all switches --- and run NEW wires, hmm.

I am (Swiss) German speaking --- a famous writer was "Wilhem Busch". He is most known for his https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_and_Moritz .
And he made many "sentences" - widely used in the german area --- example: "Ein jeder Wunsch, wenn er erfuellt, kriegt augenblicklich Junge" --- somewhat like "every wish (when) fulfilled --- produces several new wishes", hmm, what is the O-Relay doing in Your Poineer when the pin counts down the Bonus-Ladder after a Ball is lost ? Greetings Rolf

#4 6 years ago

JEF

jeffc

Pinside member

12y 91,550 2,166

Sorry Rolf, I do not currently own a Pioneer game.

#5 6 years ago

AJC

ajfclark

Pinside member

OP
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:
When You have an running Spirit of 76 / Pioneer: Please look at the O-Relay at the time the Bonus is stepped down when a ball is lost --- does YOUR pin shows "FIVE PULSES on the O-Relay" ? - or does the O-Relay not actuate while the Bonus is counted down - then pulling-in and stay pulling for "to kick-over the ball to the shooter alley ? Please write about.

On my Pioneer, O does not activate until bonus is zero. Once bonus is zero, the motor turns 120 degrees and the O relay pulses, firing the ball return kicker once.

eg. With the playfield up, I start a game and load up 1300 bonus.

I tap the outhole switch. Motor turns 120, bonus steps down 5 times.
I tap the outhole switch again. Motor turns 120, bonus steps down 5 times.
I tap the outhole switch again. Motor turns 120, bonus steps down 3 times.
I tap the outhole switch again. Motor turns 120, O pulses and the ball return kicker fires.

If I tap the outhole switch again, the last step repeats.

#6 6 years ago

rolf_martin_062

Inactive member

Hi ajfclark
Thank You for helping - doing some tests. I live in Switzerland (South of Germany) - so I am german speaking --- and sometimes I am not 100% sure of the meaning of an english word.
My definition of "pulsing" is: An Relay pulls-in - may stay pulling for a (very) short period of time - then the Relay let go --- after a (maybe very) short time the Relay pulls-in - may stay pulling for a (very) short time - then the Relay let go --- after a (maybe very) short time the Relay pulls-in --- and on - and on ...
My definition of "machine-gunning" is: The Relay or a Score-Drum or whatever is "pulsing" - BUT the frequency of this pulsing is so high - the pulsing is done so rapidly / fast that we talk about "machine gunning".

In the beginning of Your post-5 You write "... Once bonus is zero, the motor turns 120 degrees and the O-Relay PULSES ...".

In the other topic we have the (strange to me) phenomena that the O-Relay pulses / flutter WHILE the Bonus is counted down. I have some knowledge - to me the "behaviour in the other topic" looks like beeing a fault --- BUT when this happens (O-Relay pulses / flutters) in all such pins (at Bonus-Countdown or the O-Relay only on its own): I would chase a ghost ...

The behaviour of the O-Relay I expect is: The O-Relay pulls-in --- stays constantly pulling as the Motor makes a turn of 120 degrees --- then (almost) at the same time the Motor stops and the O-Relay quits the "steady pulling" - the O-Relay "let go" --- so does Your O-Relay pulses (flutter) ? or does the O-Relay pull-in and STAYS pulling until the Motor stops and so the Relay "let go" ?
Greetings Rolf

#7 6 years ago

AJC

ajfclark

Pinside member

Quoted from ajfclark:
On my Pioneer, O does not activate until bonus is zero. Once bonus is zero, the motor turns 120 degrees and the O relay pulses, firing the ball return kicker once.

I'll use the word energise for when the relay turns on/pulls in and de-energise for when it turns off/lets go.
I'll use the word fire for when a coil energises and then de-energises quickly.

With 1300 bonus, when the ball drains:

The motor turns 120, during which the Subtract "Bonus" Unit coil fires 5 times.
The motor turns 120, during which the Subtract "Bonus" Unit coil fires 5 times.
The motor turns 120, during which the Subtract "Bonus" Unit coil fires 3 times.
The motor turns 120, at the end of the turn, the O relay energises, which causes the Ball Return coil to fire, kicking the ball, and then the O relay de-energises.

Looking at the schematic, the O relay should NEVER energise until the bonus unit has reached the zero position:

Make break switch circled

If I get a chance this afternoon, I'll fiddle with that switch and see if I can replicate your problem.

#8 6 years ago

ACE

Nick_C

Pinside member

Williamstown, ON

9y 20,650 238 7

This is what I thought. I might be at a point where I have to unsolder each end of a wire run and use a jumper like to isolate some wires or even perhaps start inspecting the wires.

#9 6 years ago

AJC

ajfclark

Pinside member

Quoted from Nick_C:
This is what I thought. I might be at a point where I have to unsolder each end of a wire run and use a jumper like to isolate some wires or even perhaps start inspecting the wires.

Ok, I had a chance to have a quick play around and see what I could come up with. I managed to get my machine to kick the ball back after only 5000 of the bonus has been scored.

eg. Game with 1300 bonus, ball drains, bonus counts down 5000, ball kicks out, leaving 8000 bonus still lit

All I needed to do was short the upper leaves on the make/break switch on the bonus unit, the white blue and white orange. Shown here open as the bonus unit is not in the zero position: 20170723_193455 (resized).jpg

The first diagnostic I'd do is checking that that switch really, really is open when then bonus unit isn't zero - I'd put a piece of card between the upper contacts or de-solder the white orange from the top tab.

This should make the machine count down all the bonus but no longer kick the ball out. If that's what happens, there's something wrong with how that switch is working that is isn't opening properly.

If the problem continues, there's a short between the white orange and white blue somewhere else.

#10 6 years ago

FRB

frb

Pinside+ Frequent

11y 57,150 412

When the ball is in the outhole the switch completes a circuit to the bonus relay. The bonus relay holds itself on by a switch on itself. the motor is turning. Each 1/3 rev can only score 5 times because there are 5 cogs on motor level A. The motor is held on for another 1/3 rev for the next 5 bonus by a switch on itself. The bonus are given until the bonus unit switch is at 0. The bonus relay is then de-energized by a switch on motor 1A. Your bonus relay is not holding on long enough. Check its switches. It could be the switches at the bonus unit that are misadjusted stopping cycle early. I would also check the 1A switches.

#11 6 years ago

rolf_martin_062

Inactive member

Hi jeffc, ajfclark, frb
thanks for helping on "Nick_C and my" problem. The strange thing happening - O-Relay somewhat pulls-in --- but does this too early as well as does it pulsing five times (pull and let go and and and and) instead of pull-in and stay pulling - the strange thing happening is most likely a fault.
Probably the Make-and-Brake-Switch "Zero Pos. Bonus Unit, my green-5, blue-19" is faulty --- the question is: "Also liable / liably" for the faulty pulsing ? And (?) the Motor-1C-Switch with wires soldered-on "maroon-green", "brown-black" probably is also faulty --- faulty always closed or "liable / liably for the faulty pulsing" (?).

I very much like the SteveFury-Testlight he shows here https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/reading-gottlieb-schematics#post-2634425
I hope You have such an Testlight - and clip-on as shown in the JPG --- when the Motor is at home (not turning) Testlight must shine --- when the motor is made turning (by whatever): The Test-Light must turn-off and STAY OFF for the rest of the Motor-turn --- NO FLUTTER / NO PULSING - simply OFF. Greetings Rolf

0Spirit76-Work-17 (resized).jpg

#12 6 years ago

FRB

frb

Pinside+ Frequent

11y 57,150 412

O should be energized by a switch at bonus unit when at 0.

#13 6 years ago

AJC

ajfclark

Pinside member

OP
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:
thanks for helping on "Nick_C and my" problem. The strange thing happening - O-Relay somewhat pulls-in --- but does this too early as well as does it pulsing five times (pull and let go and and and and) instead of pull-in and stay pulling - the strange thing happening is most likely a fault.

Ok, the O relay pulling in 5 times is definitely not right. As the Kick Out coil doesn't fire five times, I'd guess the make/break switch on the bonus unit is actually ok.

The motor sequence chart only has one stack that fires 5 times - 1A:
Pioneer Motor Sequence Chart

So I think something is going on with 1A, eg a short between 1A and something that is causing O to pulse 5 times.

#14 6 years ago

ACE

Nick_C

Pinside member

Williamstown, ON

9y 20,650 238 7

Before reading this thread for the evening, I decided to have another look at that make/break switch, I unsoldered all the wires, which I labeled on the schematic before I removed them. When I resoldered them there was a discrepancy between the schematic and what I originally had. Now it counts down exactly the way it should!!!

ajfclark was able to reproduce it, it was the way the switches were soldered. I looked at those switches so many times, maybe the few days away from it allowed me to look at it with fresh eyes.

I can't thank everyone enough!! Thank you so much Rolf, i learnt alot from you and this problem. Thanks ajfclark and frb for assisting in the troubleshooting.

Thanks again everyone!

Nick

#15 6 years ago

AJC

ajfclark

Pinside member