(Topic ID: 90432)

Central Park Green/Yellow Target advance problem

By professorpinball

9 years ago


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#1 9 years ago

I have a Central Park in generally excellent condition - but there is a problem with the green and yellow "advance" circuit. As you know if you know the game, when you've dinged 1-5 the yellow should advance one, and 6-10 the green should advance one - each time you complete the respective sequence. My problem is, for both, they advance by four instead of one. Kind of ruins the game play.

I am an EE, have the schematic, and have spent hours puzzling over this problem, but cannot seem to figure it out. It seems clear something is not opening to cut off the advance relays after one pulse from the score motor, but I have checked all the relevant SM switches for proper operation and absence of a short, to no avail.

I can't believe I can't figure out what's wrong - if anyone else has any ideas I'm all ears.

Thanks

#2 9 years ago

I'm not familiar with the workings of this game although I am familiar with how it plays.

Based on my experience with Gottlieb games I would expect there to be a stepper unit associated with both the yellow and green sequence. So, to me, if there are stepper units I would inspect them for mechanical function. See the picture here - the two mechs in the middle of the playfield.

http://ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=481&picno=17651

With separate steppers for each color, the issue of both stepping four steps is too coincidental.

There are ratcheting arms for the step up that are supposed to allow only one step at a time. I would inspect to make sure they are working properly. I recommend lubricating the metal to metal only pivot points with Tri-Flow teflon lubricant.

There is still a chance the issue is elsewhere.

Let us know if the steppers are or aren't the source of your problems and we will go from there.

Mike O.
Team-EM

#3 9 years ago

So that's a very interesting one. Since there are two separate stepper units (one for green, one for yellow), the first inclination is to look for something in the circuit that's common to both paths.

Each "Add [Green|Yellow] Advance Unit" is stepped via a switch closed on their respective Advance relay, a series of four(!) normally closed switches around the score motor, and pulsed by a switch at score motor position 1A. The latter switch is the one that would be able to provide five pulses, so four of them apparently are working, instead of just the expected single pulse.

Now, the Yellow and Green Advance relays each have their own lock-in switch, which will keep them energized, but share a common path to release the lock-in.

This suggests that the series of four score motor switches are staying closed, along with the respective Advance relay lock-in, during four pulses of score motor switch 1A.

So one thing to observe is whether the X and Y relays (the Advance relays) are indeed activating and staying locked on for the duration of the score motor turn (or at least four pulses worth). They are held locked in via a switch on their own switch stack, and either a switch on P, or at score motor position 4C. So for example, if the P relay also was stuck locked on, then it could in turn cause either X and Y to stay locked on, which might allow the stepper advance path to complete the four times. So if X and Y are staying locked on, then another observation is whether the P relay is also staying locked on for the duration. It may also be beneficial to try blocking the lock-in switches on X or Y, and P, to see if the behavior changes (or goes away).

Another thing to check is the dog bone switches on the score motor, to ensure they are in the correct slots (S or L). Having one or more in the incorrect slots will mess up the timing, and goofy things can happen.

Those are some initial thoughts. Knowing how X, Y, and P are behaving will help further isolate.

#4 9 years ago

Mr DirtFlipper, you're good. is there any Gottlieb's you don't know???

Looking for a EM Gottlieb myself (Sold the one I had), will be knocking on your "PM" when the time come!

#5 9 years ago

Hi all who responded - I appreciate the help, and so soon.

As it turned out, all the problems were due to the dog bone switches on the score motor being in the incorrect position. Every one of them was in the opposite position to what it should have been ! It's amazing the machine worked as well as it did, considering. This turned out to be the cause of another issue I hadn't even mentioned, namely that the 30 point objectives usually scored 40 and sometimes 50 points - and occasionally 30.

I bought the machine from a reputable dealer who'd shopped it, so it never occurred to me that something so fundamental could be the problem. I assume the SM must have been disassembled to be cleaned, and was not put back together accurately. Anyway, resolving this resolved both problems and now it works perfectly.

Thank you for the inspiration to consider the inconceivable.

Professor

PS in case you're wondering why I didn't take it up with the seller, they were very far away and it didn't seem worthwhile - especially as I was sure I could fix it easily. Just took a little longer than I expected. Next time I'll know better.

#6 9 years ago

Excellent, congrats on getting that sorted out and working again! Thanks for the follow-up too; maybe it will help the next person.

#7 9 years ago

Good work Mr. Dirt! You should be "professorpinball"!

#8 9 years ago
Quoted from professorpinball:

I bought the machine from a reputable dealer who'd shopped it,

Could you give us a little clue? They should have done a better job checking out the game before selling it if it was a retail dealer. It couldn't have been working properly at their shop. I've had to repair games that have come from certain dealers. They get high retail prices, but in many cases their quality is a bit lacking.

#9 9 years ago

Discretion suggests I not reveal the retailer, who I am overall still happy with - however, they have been informed and agreed they should have caught this - also, that it was apparently already in the incorrect state when they acquired it, as they did not disassemble the SM.

#10 9 years ago

so...

you came here, asked for help, got the help you needed, and then won't share with us information that could help us and others out...

3 weeks later
#11 9 years ago

That assessment seems rather harsh and unnecessarily sarcastic.

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