(Topic ID: 186109)

Centigrade 37 Alternating Relay

By beelzeboob

7 years ago


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#1 7 years ago

Because I'm a moron, it took me a while to figure out my lane lights weren't alternating as they should; they'd just stay on and never change lanes. I got under the hood and fired up a game and saw that the coil on my alternating relay would energize and stay that way, pulling the relay into the one position and never releasing it. So I found the cause...kind of.

I traced the schematic upstream and the next thing in line is a capacitor and 2 diodes. I've added pics of them, both in the schematic and under the playfield.

So...the question: Could it be a failed cap that's causing the coil to stay on? Or a diode issue? Easy enough to replace them, but didn't want to bother PB Resource for those parts before checking here first (also saw that the schematic says 47 microfarads, but the actual cap in the game is 50 microfarads - not sure if that's an issue). Not sure of the diode rating, either, since the schematic just says "100 P.I.V. Rectifier".

I've also learned that the score motor relays could possibly cause issues with the alternating relay, so wondering where to look there if that's the case.

I know this is a common issue with C37, so I'm hoping someone can lead me to a solution. Thanks in advance for any help!

EDIT: Because Pinside did something funky with my schematic photo when I rotated it, I'm just including the original, which is sideways.

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#2 7 years ago

I am guessing here, but if the alternating relay is actuating, then the cap and diode are not shorted. I would look elsewhere. Possibly a stuck latch relay? Are there any issues with scoring features?

#3 7 years ago
Quoted from D-Gottlieb:

I am guessing here, but if the alternating relay is actuating, then the cap and diode are not shorted. I would look elsewhere. Possibly a stuck latch relay? Are there any issues with scoring features?

No problems with scoring. I just thought that a blown cap or diode might cause the coil to stay charged. Not sure what else would cause it

#4 7 years ago
Quoted from beelzeboob:

No problems with scoring. I just thought that a blown cap or diode might cause the coil to stay charged. Not sure what else would cause it

Sounds like a normally open switch that is closed somewhere.

#5 7 years ago

The issue isn't going to be the cap or the diodes.
I remember something goofy in that circuit, like a switch on the first drop target. The memory is hazy.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://www.ChrisHiblerPinball.com/Contact
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

#6 7 years ago

I think there is a small mini stepper in the backbox (AS relay) thats handles the match function and I think the alternating lights as well. The Gottlieb AS relays have a reputation of being very problematic. Make sure yours is working smoothly. I had to rebuild mine when I did my restoration.

Some pics of it in this thread:

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/centigrade-37-help-having-some-trouble-1.

#7 7 years ago

Thanks to all for the responses. I'll investigate tomorrow or Tuesday and report back with what I find!

#8 7 years ago

IIRC the alternating relay changes with 500s scoring. You should see it flicker with each 500. So that could be associated with the 500 pt relay or as a piggy back switch to the match relay.

#9 7 years ago
Quoted from MikeO:

IIRC the alternating relay changes with 500s scoring. You should see it flicker with each 500. So that could be associated with the 500 pt relay or as a piggy back switch to the match relay.

I DO see it flicker when it plays. The lights go off and on again without switching to the other lanes. I think you're on to something...and I definitely think it has to do with the match relay because I noticed that it wasn't moving freely and coming up with random match numbers at the end of games.

Awesome. I know where to start looking now. Thanks so much again for everyone's help!

#10 7 years ago

Curious, I think I have these symptoms in my game too. I did not realize that match is supposed to alternate. Mine never has and I never cared because of free play. To call them rudimentary would be an huge exaggeration of my EM repair skills.

My lane change lights have recently begun to only alternate intermittently. Interesting that these could be related.

If you solve your issue, I'd be interested in hearing about the process.

#11 7 years ago

Hi
I do not know the pin - I do some guessing, asking.
I wonder what "switch on what relay / stepper" is to the right - my orange question mark in the JPG (?).
I doubt that the AS-Relay-Mini-Stepper is involved.
What does the schematics of the pin shows on "stuff done by pulling / non-pulling A-Alternating-Relay" ?

My interpretation is: The AC-Current (my green line and my blue line) do charge a battery (the capacitor). Depending on the time the "switch to the right" is closed: The battery is fully charged or partially charged (when 'switch to the right opens again'). The battery then slowly empties by feeding the A-Relay - this A-Relay pulls for some time (length of pulling does vary from instance to instance) --- when the battery is empty the A-Relay quits pulling.

When in "beelzeboob / lame33" pins the A-Relay constantly pulls I then ask: "Does the "switch to the right / orange questionmark" ever opens ? Or is it constantly closed and this constantly charges the battery - does constantly feed the A-Relay - the A-Relay constantly pulls ?
Greetings Rolf

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#12 7 years ago

Okay...I looked at the FS mini-stepper relay in the backbox, and it's going to need to be rebuilt. The match number never changes, so I'm hoping a disassembly, cleaning, and lube on the disc will help things work better...and fix my alternating relay problem. I'll post updates when I get to it. I'm swamped with my Joker Poker just now.

#13 7 years ago
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

Hi
I do not know the pin - I do some guessing, asking.
I wonder what "switch on what relay / stepper" is to the right - my orange question mark in the JPG (?).
I doubt that the AS-Relay-Mini-Stepper is involved.
What does the schematics of the pin shows on "stuff done by pulling / non-pulling A-Alternating-Relay" ?
My interpretation is: The AC-Current (my green line and my blue line) do charge a battery (the capacitor). Depending on the time the "switch to the right" is closed: The battery is fully charged or partially charged (when 'switch to the right opens again'). The battery then slowly empties by feeding the A-Relay - this A-Relay pulls for some time (length of pulling does vary from instance to instance) --- when the battery is empty the A-Relay quits pulling.
When in "beelzeboob / lame33" pins the A-Relay constantly pulls I then ask: "Does the "switch to the right / orange questionmark" ever opens ? Or is it constantly closed and this constantly charges the battery - does constantly feed the A-Relay - the A-Relay constantly pulls ?
Greetings Rolf

Thanks, Rolf! I'm going to check my diodes to make sure both are operating properly. Seems like if I address a couple different issues, that should solve my problem.

#14 7 years ago

Okay...first of all, the diodes were working properly.

It was the AS relay (labeled the FS relay on my C37). The fulcrum pointy thing wasn't moving the ratchet on the spindle consistently so I took it apart, cleaned and lubed the shaft and circuit boards (not the ratchet or actuator, obviously), and reassembled it. When I tested the ratchet, it still seemed a little sporadic, as if sometimes it wasn't catching the teeth of the ratchet. The ratchet is fine...not worn that I can see. I think the problem is the amount of force being exerted downward by the actuator...it's not catching all the time. Not sure how to fix that since there seems to be some small wire thing in there that acts as a spring.

Anyway, I put it back in and everything works now, but I think it sporadically doesn't (which is to be expected). Does the 1000 bumper change the lights? Because mine doesn't - only the top two bumpers fire the alternating relay.

Thanks so much for all of your help - I'm close to having this back to working perfectly!

#15 7 years ago

The 1000 point bumper does not engage the alternating relay.

IIRC, the 100 point relay pulses the AS relay. When 500 points are scored, the bagatelle rollovers will alternate five times.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://ChrisHiblerPinball.com/contact/
http://www.PinWiki.com - The new place for pinball repair info

#16 7 years ago

This thread is a perfect example of why Pinside is great, btw. Would've been a bitch hunting down what was causing the problem. This place is just a huge knowledge pool waiting to be tapped. I'm sure I'll be back with another problem soon...

#17 7 years ago

Glad you got your game playing right.

Bring on the next issue.

#18 7 years ago

Those gottlieb AS relays are frequently gummed up and problematic. They are tiny stepper units. They only work properly if all the workings are smooth, clean and perfectly aligned.

#19 7 years ago
Quoted from D-Gottlieb:

Those gottlieb AS relays are frequently gummed up and problematic. They are tiny stepper units. They only work properly if all the workings are smooth, clean and perfectly aligned.

Everything is perfectly aligned. Just not sure I have the proper amount of downward force on the teeth of the little plastic gear. I think the actuator may still be slipping a bit...and I have no idea how to fix that.

#20 7 years ago

Hi beelzebuub
Your AS-Relay-Stepper does not work properly ? Maybe some part is missing (?) see the red line to the "stop - no backward turning allowed". Greetings Rolf

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#21 7 years ago
Quoted from beelzeboob:

Everything is perfectly aligned. Just not sure I have the proper amount of downward force on the teeth of the little plastic gear. I think the actuator may still be slipping a bit...and I have no idea how to fix that.

If you shorten the spring a little to increase the force does that help?

#22 7 years ago

Hey Randy,
sorry to hear about that issue, I never played the machine much and wasn't aware of the cycling thing.
One thing to also look into is to be sure that all switches in the path to the solenoid make good clean contact.
I had issues with the bonus stepper on my Card Whiz and after messing around with the relay to no avail, I realized it was a dirty switch that wasn't making good contact that didn't give enough power to the solenoid to do its thing.

#23 7 years ago
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

Hi beelzebuub
Your AS-Relay-Stepper does not work properly ? Maybe some part is missing (?) see the red line to the "stop - no backward turning allowed". Greetings Rolf

All the parts are there - and your picture shows perfectly what I'm talking about. That little plastic piece doesn't seem to catch the teeth on the wheel all the time because it doesn't press down hard enough...or so it seems.

Quoted from docquest:

If you shorten the spring a little to increase the force does that help?

No spring visible. There are two tiny wires that come out of the back of that actuator, so if you press down on it (toward the wheel), it springs back. Perhaps some tiny spring inside or just a wire used as a spring. I don't really want to take that apart to find out because I'm afraid of messing it up.

Quoted from PhilGreg:

Hey Randy,
sorry to hear about that issue, I never played the machine much and wasn't aware of the cycling thing.
One thing to also look into is to be sure that all switches in the path to the solenoid make good clean contact.
I had issues with the bonus stepper on my Card Whiz and after messing around with the relay to no avail, I realized it was a dirty switch that wasn't making good contact that didn't give enough power to the solenoid to do its thing.

Absolutely no worries, my friend. I had no idea the lights were supposed to alternate until I watched a YouTube video and played another guy's machine that is local to me. You sold the machine in good faith and that's how I bought it...and this is teaching me something about EMs, so it's actually a good thing. I'd buy from you again in a heartbeat - and that's a good thing because we're running out of Caribou and maple syrup!

#24 7 years ago

The spring is tiny and it is not advisable to disassemble that pawl. Using a toothpick, clean the ratchet wheel notch by notch and maybe use a tiny dash of teflon lube on it. It worked at one time, and the spring does not lose a significant amount of tension over time. There are switches in the relay that ride on a black cam wheel as well. Ensure that these switches are not dragging too much on the cam causing friction. There may be a wiper as well on that relay that is on a small printed circuit board that also can cause drag. There are two of these wipers on the FS relay in Top Score and the relay advances fine now that I cleaned it. Be careful not to remove both sides of the relay at once. It can hard to reassemble it properly.

#25 7 years ago

To eliminate any friction resistance use Super Lube on the wipers and use Tri Flow teflon lube between the cam(s) and switch(es). These are simple efforts that don't compromise the long term functionality.

#26 7 years ago
Quoted from D-Gottlieb:

The spring is tiny and it is not advisable to disassemble that pawl. Using a toothpick, clean the ratchet wheel notch by notch and maybe use a tiny dash of teflon lube on it. It worked at one time, and the spring does not lose a significant amount of tension over time. There are switches in the relay that ride on a black cam wheel as well. Ensure that these switches are not dragging too much on the cam causing friction. There may be a wiper as well on that relay that is on a small printed circuit board that also can cause drag. There are two of these wipers on the FS relay in Top Score and the relay advances fine now that I cleaned it. Be careful not to remove both sides of the relay at once. It can hard to reassemble it properly.

Quoted from MikeO:

To eliminate any friction resistance use Super Lube on the wipers and use Tri Flow teflon lube between the cam(s) and switch(es). These are simple efforts that don't compromise the long term functionality.

Thanks...I figured as much about the disassembly of the pawl (and thanks for teaching me what that part is called!). I thought about putting lube on the metal cam wheel (that comes into contact with switch), but didn't do it. I did check the drag and it was fine. I also cleaned the circuit boards and sanded them with 1500 grit sandpaper, then put super lube on. I know about all that stuff (and I'm not dumb enough to use WD40). But I used super lube on the plastic shaft. Didn't lube the cam - didn't even know about Tri Flow, but will get some now! I did take both side off at once - didn't really find it a problem putting it back together...just have to get the little metal piece in the middle to line up with the screw holes.

#27 7 years ago

The strip of metal that prevents the ratchet wheel from going in the opposite direction has to be adjusted so that there is a slight clearance allowing the pawl to grab the next tooth but not jam the mechanism.

1 year later
#28 6 years ago

This thread was very helpful, thanks! Good to know alternating relay is tied to match relay. Cheers!

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