(Topic ID: 335224)

Centaur Transformer issue - help?

By andy3367

1 year ago


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  • 38 posts
  • 6 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 12 months ago by andy3367
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#1 1 year ago

I've run into some odd voltages on my Centaur machine and, based on my rudimentary troubleshooting, it seems there's a problem with the transformer and/or its wiring.

Using both the original -54 and a brand-new replacement -54 from Anarchy, I get some really weird voltages at all TPs. All fuses are good on both boards and both boards previously would get me to GI lighting. I would appreciate direction, as many of you know way more than I do or probably ever will. Below are the various values I get with just J6 connected.

BEFORE replacing the J6 connector and terminal pins:

OLD Board | NEW Board
TP1: 0.1 VDC | TP1: 0.1 VDC
TP2: 0-2.1 VDC | TP2: 2.1 VDC
TP3: 37 VDC | TP3: 25 VDC
TP4: 70 VAC | TP4: 38-65.5 VAC
TP5: 0.0 VDC | TP5: 0.0 VDC

AFTER replacing the J6 connector and terminal pins:

NEW Board
TP1: 0.1 VDC
TP2: 12 VDC
TP3: 20.7 VDC
TP4: 92-153 VAC*
TP5: 0.0 VDC

*for TP4, I got readings of 92, 120, and 153 VAC just by bending the wiring harness this way or that.

Line voltage is 125.8 VAC (high, but within 5% tolerance), measured both at the wall and at the connector ahead of the fuse.

Based on those TP4 numbers, I'm guessing there are some cracked solders on the transformer itself. I haven't (yet) done anything with the transformer, as I'm unsure it's worth my digging around inside. Should I just go shop around for one instead? I have no problem checking this and that or doing some soldering and I can pick my way through a schematic. If someone here has a solution or a direction to lead me, I'm more than thankful.

Cheers!

#2 1 year ago

The transformers in these games are rock solid and hardly ever fail. Post some pictures of it and the rectifier board that's hooked up.

Where are you hooking up the black meter lead as a ground reference?

Have you measured all the AC voltages coming out of the transformer?

We have come across multi-meters here giving abnormal readings with no load usually due to being low quality, low battery or plain faulty.

#3 1 year ago

Also check the power switch. It's a DPST switch and if one of the poles is bad you'll get low readings. Ask me how I know.

#4 1 year ago

@quench, I know these are pretty sturdy transformers; the only thing that has me looking toward it for the issue is that both the old and new boards come up with flaky numbers. For me, that narrows it down to either my DMM or the transformer.

I'm quite willing to buy a different DMM, if needed. The one I have is a Vici CM-2016. I have no idea if it's decent, crappy, or otherwise. I put fresh batteries in it and ran the TP checks again. I got the same results.

I've attached pics, as requested. I'm not sure they'll be of much help. As you can see, I haven't delved into the transformer at all. I've been holding back to get advice before doing anything more or deeper. I'm using the GND point on the rectifier board for my black lead. Is there somewhere better?

Should I probe the terminal pins on the J6 plug itself to see if power is coming in cleanly?

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#5 1 year ago

@dothedoo, my VAC at the wall and at the connector ahead of the fuse read the same 125.8 VAC. If the power switch were bad, wouldn't I see some sort of drop at the connector?

#6 1 year ago

I don't see anything unusual about the transformer. Sometimes when people short the G.I. for extended periods, the transformers overheat and spew out wax.

Disconnect the line cord from the wall. Switch on the power switch under the cabinet. Measure the resistance across the active and neutral prongs on the line cord plug (i.e. you are basically measuring the DC resistance of the input winding on the transformer). What resistance reading do you get?

#7 1 year ago

@quench, Thanks for the reply and direction. I get 0.0 ohms when doing as you suggested. (I get 0.4 ohms by connecting my leads to confirm the DMM is actually measuring something.)

#8 1 year ago
Quoted from andy3367:

I get 0.0 ohms when doing as you suggested.

Hmm, 0.0 ohms is a dead short and would blow the mains fuse. You should probably get about 2 ohms. If your multi-meter is not auto-ranging, set it on the lowest ohms scale of 200 and try again.
Post a picture of your multi-meter too.

#9 1 year ago
Quoted from Quench:

Hmm, 0.0 ohms is a dead short and would blow the mains fuse. You should probably get about 2 ohms. If your multi-meter is not auto-ranging, set it on the lowest ohms scale of 200 and try again.
Post a picture of your multi-meter too.

My DMM does auto-range and it was on AUTO (top-left of DMM display).

I wasn't too pleased to get a 0.0 reading. I double-checked my work and got some "interesting" results. I first tested the main fuse itself. It's definitely not blown. Then, I removed the connector from the fuse block and jumped the power wires. At first, I again got 0 but then as I gently manipulated the plug, the readings jumped all over, sometimes briefly settling in the 1.8-2.0 range. When I re-seat the connector, i can again get ~2 ohms when I push down on the white wire.

Based on all this, it seems my next (and hopefully only) step is to replace that connector and its pins. Had I not already started replacing the connectors for the rectifier board, I'd have one on hand. As it is, I'll have to order the plug and pins.
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#10 1 year ago
Quoted from andy3367:

I wasn't too pleased to get a 0.0 reading.

It's more likely reading infinite since it changes the range to Megaohms.

#11 1 year ago
Quoted from slochar:

It's more likely reading infinite since it changes the range to Megaohms.

It displays like that even on the other ranges. It just ends its auto-ranging cycle on mega-ohms. It reads like this even if I force it into other, lower ranges.

When I forcefully push the white wire down into the seated connector, the DMM ranges down and shows 2.6 ohms.

#12 1 year ago

yeah, get a different meter. Autoranging is bad for what we want to measure here.

#13 1 year ago
Quoted from andy3367:

I wasn't too pleased to get a 0.0 reading.

Hang on, do you mean "0.0" or "0.L" as per your meter pictures?
My fluke multi-meter shows "0.L" (zero load?) when the probes are not connected anything, i.e. not measuring anything.

Quoted from andy3367:

Then, I removed the connector from the fuse block and jumped the power wires.

Can you give more info on which connector you're talking about?

#14 1 year ago
Quoted from Quench:

Hang on, do you mean "0.0" or "0.L" as per your meter pictures?
My fluke multi-meter shows "0.L" (zero load?) when the probes are not connected anything, i.e. not measuring anything.
Can you give more info on which connector you're talking about?

My oversight and mistake. It was 0.L when I was checking the resistance, as indicated in the pictures. My DMM likewise shows 0.L when not connected at all.

I've since discovered the (first) problem and have fixed it. IDK the term for the connector I mean other than it's the one ahead of the main fuse, carrying VAC from the wall (see pic). After looking closer at the other half of this plug, I saw one of the terminal sockets had pushed back, resulting in the flaky resistance readings. I was able to re-seat it and I'm now consistently reading 1.7 ohms on the resistance test. The transformer is humming now, too, which it wasn't before.

I have no idea how that socket loosened, since until this power issue arose, that plug hasn't been touched in the 20+ years I've owned the machine.

Is there probative value in checking the blue and brown wires from transformer to J6?

Here are the latest readings:

TP1: 8.17 VDC
TP2: 1.67 VDC
TP3: 22.67 VDC
TP4: 3.1-3.21 VAC
TP5: 0.000 VDC

Thank you so much for your knowledge and help walking me though this.
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#15 1 year ago
Quoted from slochar:

yeah, get a different meter. Autoranging is bad for what we want to measure here.

I'm open to suggestion on what to buy, as long as it's not crazy expensive. I won't use a DMM much at all other than messing with this machine, so I don't need some pro-level device.

#16 1 year ago

Readings now that the transformer is humming and getting power consistently:

TP1: 8.17 VDC
TP2: 1.67 VDC
TP3: 22.67 VDC
TP4: 3.1-3.21 VAC
TP5: 0.000 VDC

#17 1 year ago
Quoted from andy3367:

Readings now that the transformer is humming and getting power consistently:

Ok, making progress.
From the pictures above you don't have the transformer output J5 connector plugged into the rectifier board which would explain many of the missing voltages.

TP1 looks about right (with no load) it comes from J6 which you have plugged in.

If J5 is indeed plugged in then lets go back and test the transformer output voltages. Set your multi-meter to AC voltage. Your meter leads need to measure across the transformer windings - i.e. do not put the black meter lead on ground for these tests.

TP2 (the 230VDC) comes from the two red wires at the J5 connector on the rectifier board. You should measure approx 170VAC across them at the J5 plug. Measure with one meter lead on one red wire at J5, the other meter lead on the other red wire at J5. It doesn't matter which has the red or black meter lead. Follow this for the below.

TP3 (the 11.9VDC) comes from the two blue wires at the J6 connector on the rectifier board. You should measure approx 14.2AC there.

TP4 (the 6.5VAC) comes from the Yellow and Yellow-Black wires at J5. You should measure approx 6.5VAC there.

TP5 (the 43VDC) comes from the Green and Orange wires at J5. You should measure approx 49VAC there.

Quoted from andy3367:

I have no idea how that socket loosened, since until this power issue arose, that plug hasn't been touched in the 20+ years I've owned the machine.

Maybe it came out of the factory barely touching.

#18 1 year ago
Quoted from Quench:

Ok, making progress.
From the pictures above you don't have the transformer output J5 connector plugged into the rectifier board which would explain many of the missing voltages.

No, I didn't have J5 plugged in because I was following the troubleshooting directions of another site (https://homepinballrepair.com/troubleshooting-early-bally-and-stern-pinball-machines/#voltages). It seemed odd to me to have only J6 plugged in but I figured 1) he knows better, and/or 2) he would get to J5 in time. Wrong on both counts! More like trouble-causing than troubleshooting...

My J5 red wires measure 191.0 VAC.
My J6 blue wires measure 14.97 VAC
My J5 yellow & yellow-black wires all measure 7.47 VAC. (I tried all appropriate combos.)
My J5 green and orange wires measure 53.04 VAC.

Quoted from Quench:

Maybe it came out of the factory barely touching.

Maybe. I'm surprised it's made it this long and far, if so!

Here are my latest measures with both J5 & J6 plugged in:

TP1: 8.08 VDC
TP2: 203.2 VDC
TP3: 14.97 VDC
TP4: 7.48 VAC
TP5: 46.23 VDC

Based on the aforementioned website and what you say about TP1, it appears all my values are in range. All this, due to a shoddy socket terminal at the power connector--which I only checked on a whim.

#19 12 months ago

Presuming you've reconnected everything to the rectifier board and the game is working, what voltages do you now measure at the rectifier board test points?

#20 12 months ago
Quoted from Quench:

Presuming you've reconnected everything to the rectifier board and the game is working, what voltages do you now measure at the rectifier board test points?

Reconnected, yes. Game working, no. I get GI but the multi-ball solenoid locks on, so that's my next quest--and perhaps another post on here if I get stuck.

Voltages with everything connected:

TP1: 8.14
TP2: 259.0
TP3: 16.68
TP4: 7.04
TP5: 46.31

#21 12 months ago

Because the multiball solenoid is a high current coil, it is controlled through a solenoid expander relay. Q11 on the SDB controls the relay. I would first pull the expander and reflow the solder joints on the header pins. Then make sure the lamp (incandescent) is working when the expander activates. If that doesn't fix it, you'll need to see if Q11 is shorted. Once you get the mech working, you should mod it to make sure it can never melt the coil.

The mech is a modified flipper mech, using a kicker arm in place of the flipper bat and the EOS switch has been removed. The coil is an uncommon one, used only in Centaur, I believe. I replaced mine with a standard 25-500/34-4500 flipper coil and added an EOS switch. Now if the coil locks on during a game when you wouldn't notice until you see smoke (like mine did), the pawl on the mech will open the EOS switch, removing the high current winding from the circuit. The game can sit there all day like that and the coil won't melt. The added benefit is you get a nice, strong flipper coil to kick the ball up that long tramway.

#22 12 months ago
Quoted from andy3367:

Voltages with everything connected:

Those voltages are too high IMO. You stated in your original post your line voltage is 125.8VAC
That is unless your multi-meter's gone out of calibration.
Your game is set to 115VAC input, I would re-jumper it to 120V. The connector where you found the loose pin is where the transformer voltage is configured.

PS-54_Config.jpgPS-54_Config.jpg

#23 12 months ago

Thanks, @dothedoo, I'll pull and check out the solenoid expander board this weekend. I just now powered up a couple times and had the solenoid both lock and not. It didn't lock on after I pulled and re-seated the connector on the expander board.

Are you referring to the underside bulb by the Aux Driver? It does light.

#24 12 months ago
Quoted from Quench:

Those voltages are too high IMO.

I feel similarly. I suspect I have voltage on the high end because I'm on my own transformer and I'm only about 1.5 miles from the substation. I've measured throughout the house and consistently get ~126VAC. I may buy another DMM just to get a second opinion.

I didn't know the input voltage is as adaptable as it is. Here are the voltages after changing to 120VAC input:

TP1: 7.54
TP2: 247.7
TP3: 15.69
TP4: 6.72
TP5: 44.15

#25 12 months ago
Quoted from andy3367:

I'm on my own transformer and I'm only about 1.5 miles from the substation. I've measured throughout the house and consistently get ~126VAC. I may buy another DMM just to get a second opinion.

You're just on the higher end of the acceptable 120 nominal voltage range in the US, which is 114 to 126 VAC RMS (+/- 5%). IMO, I don't think it's enough to justify a second DMM unless you need an upgrade.

FWIW, you could call your local electric utility and complain that you believe your 120 is reading 127 at the outlets and 254 at the main breaker, which is greater than the 5% tolerance. They could send somebody out to verify and calibrate it closer to 120/240 VAC via taps on your transformer.

Just keep in mind that utility voltage can fluctuate. Even after your own transformer is adjusted closer to the 120/240 nominal, if the high voltage primary ever fluctuates, so would your secondary voltage. However, it should always be within the +/- 5% of the 120/240 nominal.

#26 12 months ago
Quoted from andy3367:

Here are the voltages after changing to 120VAC input:

Those are better voltages. Some are still a touch high but the variances are common.

#27 12 months ago
Quoted from sparky672:

You're just on the higher end of the acceptable 120 nominal voltage range in the US, which is 114 to 126 VAC RMS (+/- 5%). IMO, I don't think it's enough to justify a second DMM unless you need an upgrade.
FWIW, you could call your local electric utility and complain that you believe your 120 is reading 127 at the outlets and 254 at the main breaker, which is greater than the 5% tolerance. They could send somebody out to verify and calibrate it closer to 120/240 VAC via taps on your transformer.

Given how little I use a DMM and given I already plan to complain about the higher-range voltage, I think I'll let their calibrated and better equipment be my second opinion. If I'm right, they can tweak it; if I'm wrong, knowledge gained.

Quoted from sparky672:

However, it should always be within the +/- 5% of the 120/240 nominal.

This is my concern. If I'm routinely at 126, I have zero headroom. I'll probably take more measurements during the coming weekdays to see if more draw along the lines ahead of me perhaps brings my voltages down at all, even if just a smidgen.

#28 12 months ago
Quoted from Quench:

Those are better voltages. Some are still a touch high but the variances are common.

Okay, cool. Thank you!

#29 12 months ago
Quoted from andy3367:

If I'm routinely at 126, I have zero headroom.

I would not lose sleep over this. Even if 130 volts, do the calculations... the percentage over, the power consumption, the current draw. A few more volts on the primary side of a pinball machine transformer should not have a meaningful impact downstream. The voltages that matter most are normally regulated so will be the same. The unregulated ones are not going to have issue with a couple percent more/less.

Quoted from andy3367:

I'll probably take more measurements during the coming weekdays to see if more draw along the lines ahead of me perhaps brings my voltages down at all, even if just a smidgen.

That's very unlikely. Your local utility grid should have enough built in capacity to handle the load under normal conditions.

Most utilities also have sophisticated systems monitoring and react immediately if any overloading would drag voltages down. In situations where overload might become a risk, like middle of a hot summer afternoon, they could preemptively cut back voltage output by 10-25% with a planned brownout, or worse, a rolling blackout.

#30 12 months ago
Quoted from sparky672:

I would not lose sleep over this. Even if 130 volts, do the calculations... the percentage over, the power consumption, the current draw. A few more volts on the primary side of a pinball machine transformer should not have a meaningful impact downstream. The voltages that matter most are normally regulated so will be the same. The unregulated ones are not going to have issue with a couple percent more/less.

I'm thinking beyond just my pinball machine but it sounds though it's of no consequence. Plus, they're technically still within tolerance range.

(As a northern transplant, I'm not always the most trusting of the southern methods of doing things. I get leery and suspicious at times.)

#31 12 months ago
Quoted from andy3367:

I'm thinking beyond just my pinball machine but it sounds though it's of no consequence. Plus, they're technically still within tolerance range.
(As a northern transplant, I'm not always the most trusting of the southern methods of doing things. I get leery and suspicious at times.)

For sure have them change your transformer taps to get it down into the middle of nominal range. Otherwise, I don't think it's a big deal either way.

Mine runs hot too... I am always at 125/250 VAC for the last 32 years. The only two times I've seen otherwise...

• Last summer, during some extra hot days, we had some unannounced voltage reductions and I saw 105 VAC at the outlets for a few days. Lamps noticeably dimmer. Appliances can suffer, as running AC motors at reduced voltage under same mechanical load will draw more current.

• Right after upgrading my main service panel to 200 amps and loading it down with every single electric appliance in the house just to prove that the 1940's vintage pole transformer dedicated to my house also needed to be replaced. I almost proved my point when I turned on so many appliances that the voltage was dragged down to where my fluorescent light fixtures started blinking off/on. But that wasn't quite enough... I also had to remind Comed that the overloaded/overheated transformer contains PCB oil, so if it leaks they will have an expensive environmental cleanup. They arrived the next day to replace with a brand new higher KVA transformer.

#32 12 months ago
Quoted from sparky672:

For sure have them change your transformer taps to get it down into the middle of nominal range. Otherwise, I don't think it's a big deal either way.

Thank you for the suggestion. I'll reach out to them this week.

Quoted from sparky672:

But that wasn't quite enough... I also had to remind Comed that the overloaded/overheated transformer contains PCB oil, so if it leaks they will have an expensive environmental cleanup. They arrived the next day to replace with a brand new higher KVA transformer.

Ah yes, good old ComEd. I lived in Aurora for 12 years, so I know them well. Sadly.

#33 12 months ago
Quoted from andy3367:

Thanks, dothedoo, I'll pull and check out the solenoid expander board this weekend. I just now powered up a couple times and had the solenoid both lock and not. It didn't lock on after I pulled and re-seated the connector on the expander board.
Are you referring to the underside bulb by the Aux Driver? It does light.

Yes, the underside bulb.

#34 12 months ago
Quoted from andy3367:

I'll pull and check out the solenoid expander board this weekend. I just now powered up a couple times and had the solenoid both lock and not. It didn't lock on after I pulled and re-seated the connector on the expander board.

With my Centaur, pretty much every time I power it up, that particular coil (& only that coil) briefly fires for a spilt second immediately after the power switch is on, before the flashes begin. It has always done this.

I am thinking this may be just normal behaviour for that to happen with that particular coil?

#35 12 months ago
Quoted from Joydivision:

With my Centaur, pretty much every time I power it up, that particular coil (& only that coil) briefly fires for a spilt second immediately after the power switch is on, before the flashes begin.

I wish that were what's happening. When it happens, mine locks on and the machine goes no further.

#36 12 months ago
Quoted from dothedoo:

Because the multiball solenoid is a high current coil, it is controlled through a solenoid expander relay. Q11 on the SDB controls the relay. I would first pull the expander and reflow the solder joints on the header pins.

I only had a few minutes this morning to mess with it but the header does have cracked solders. I'll reflow the joints the next opportunity I have.

Thank you for pointing me in that direction. I'll give your mod a whirl, too!

#37 12 months ago
Quoted from andy3367:

I wish that were what's happening. When it happens, mine locks on and the machine goes no further.

Most likely in my case the pulse coil activation I am getting on power up is from the common EMI noise interference like you can get with phantom pop bumper activation from EMI noise with flippers (I get a lot on my Centaur)

Try unplugging the solenoid expander Molex connector from the board then power the game up, which will remove the playfield kicker coil from the circuit.

If everything else is functioning ok you should be able to power up to attract mode & play a game except for the multiball playfield kicker functioning. If not, you need to look at why the game is not booting up to attract & starting a game with the playfield kicker still isolated out of the circuit.

At least from there you will have a working game & you have isolated the playfield kicker to focus on. Apply the suggestions from Dothedoo to look at Q11 & the associated components & the solenoid expander board.

Also inspect the internal contacts on the expander board’s relay in case they are stuck in the “on” position when the game is powered off. Maybe that’s even a possibility too.

#38 12 months ago
Quoted from Joydivision:

Most likely in my case the pulse coil activation I am getting on power up is from the common EMI noise interference like you can get with phantom pop bumper activation from EMI noise with flippers (I get a lot on my Centaur)
Try unplugging the solenoid expander Molex connector from the board then power the game up, which will remove the playfield kicker coil from the circuit.

I've always gotten phantom bumpers and kickers. I thought it was just me and mine!

The solenoid is behaving after I reflowed the connector. Thank you for the input; I'm going to inspect the relay anyway, just because.

At the risk of this original topic getting too far afield... I still have other things to chase down to get to full power-up and to attract mode. It sounds, literally and figuratively, as though I need to replace the S&T caps (and pots?) next. I have a little sound at first but then nothing but some louder buzzing. (I've always had some amount of buzzing, even when I first got it in 2000...for $500 off eBay!)

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