(Topic ID: 209500)

Centaur II caused a home power outage now it wont start!?

By Loreilon

6 years ago


Topic Heartbeat

Topic Stats

  • 28 posts
  • 10 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 6 years ago by CactusJack
  • Topic is favorited by 2 Pinsiders

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6 wire (resized).jpg
openplug (resized).jpg
F5_Problem (resized).jpg
EMI-F (resized).jpg
pow2 (resized).jpg
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fuse2 (resized).jpg
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#1 6 years ago

Hey guys

The machine was on and functioning as normal before it triggered a fuse box switch, killing the power to some outlets. After putting the switch back to its upward position and the power being restored now Centaur's power switch does nothing. I really don't know where to start, I presumed the most likely place to look would be the power board so I've lifted to PF and taken some pictures with the hope someone can spot any damage. I really miss my Centaur guys, please help me get it operational again. Has anyone experienced something similar, any suggestions will be appreciated!

(Let me know if further pictures or information is required)

fuse1 (resized).jpgfuse1 (resized).jpg

fuse2 (resized).jpgfuse2 (resized).jpg

pow (resized).jpgpow (resized).jpg

pow2 (resized).jpgpow2 (resized).jpg

#2 6 years ago

Are you sure the outlet the game's plugged into has power? You could plug in a lamp or something to test it.

#3 6 years ago

check the fuse with a meter not by eye

#4 6 years ago

If your home circuit breaker tripped and the main fuse isn't blown, the problem is probaby upstream. Check your outlet, inspect power cord for damage, EMI filter. Take apart the power supply assembly to see if something shorted out. I once had a small washer fall and get wedged in by the power connector and cause a fault.

#5 6 years ago
Quoted from frunch:

Are you sure the outlet the game's plugged into has power? You could plug in a lamp or something to test it.

Outlet has power, I didn't even consider this but, the fuse in the plug was blown. So I switched the fuse screwed the plug back together, plugged it in, flipped the Centaur power switch. And we're back to square one, it kills the sockets power around the house again, fuse box switch is down just as it did for the first time on Thursday. The machine was working perfectly prior. I don't know if that helps narrow it down a bit?

Quoted from Eric_S:

If your home circuit breaker tripped and the main fuse isn't blown, the problem is probaby upstream. Check your outlet, inspect power cord for damage, EMI filter. Take apart the power supply assembly to see if something shorted out. I once had a small washer fall and get wedged in by the power connector and cause a fault.

The main fuse being the black screw down one pictured, sorry I'm not highly experienced with pinball innards. Thanks for the reply ya'll!

#6 6 years ago

You probably have a shorted MOV across the line filter where the line cord comes in. It looks like a large disc capacitor and is usually soldered across two of the terminals of the silver EMI filter. This, unfortunately, is often before any line fuses so the only protection is your house circuit breaker or a 15 amp circuit breaker on a power strip if you use them.

#7 6 years ago
Quoted from CactusJack:

You probably have a shorted MOV across the line filter where the line cord comes in. It looks like a large disc capacitor and is usually soldered across two of the terminals of the silver EMI filter. This, unfortunately, is often before any line fuses so the only protection is your house circuit breaker or a 15 amp circuit breaker on a power strip if you use them.

Thank you, I spoke to a contact who knows his stuff. He also suggested right away that the line filter probably needed to be replaced. Or at least that's a great place to start. Do you really think a replacement MOV would be enough? If so could you possibly point me in the right direction to buy (the right) replacement MOV for Centaur?

#8 6 years ago
Quoted from Loreilon:

If so could you possibly point me in the right direction to buy (the right) replacement MOV for Centaur?

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/replacing-line-cords-plugs-wall-sockets-vids-guide#post-1945121

The link to Great Plains Electronics G-P-E is still good and Ed can probably tell you which MOV to buy.

#9 6 years ago

Rarely do the EMI line filters go bad. A short is almost always the MOV. The temporary test is clip one lead of it and see if the dead short across the line cord is gone. It's purpose is to asborb high voltage spikes. They can only take so many hits and then usually fail by shorting out.

For 120v line countries:

https://www.greatplainselectronics.com/proddetail.asp?prod=V130LA20AP

#10 6 years ago

Thank you so much, CactusJack! I'll try clipping one of the MOV's legs tomorrow, then try power it up again if that is what you meant?

I am in Europe (UK), does that mean your link is no good to me, what type of MOV should I use instead?

Sorry for being a bother!

#11 6 years ago

Glad I added that info about country. If 220/240, I think your MOV is rated around 260v or 275v.

#13 6 years ago

Also, as a side note, one you get the game to where it powers up again, you really should replace the fuse clips on F5, especially the upper one. That clip is bad and you can tell how hot it gets by how black the PC board has gotten around it. Make sure to get the ones that are rated for High Voltage (15/20 AMP)!

#14 6 years ago

Vid, Cactus thanks for getting me to the right MOV.
Jeff, I too noticed the singe at F5 thanks for informing me how to correct that!

Can one of you just confirm I have found the right filter and MOV, despite it being blue?
EMI-F (resized).jpgEMI-F (resized).jpg

#15 6 years ago

Yup, that's the one!

#16 6 years ago

As Jeff mentioned above -- fuse F5 definitely has a problem that needs some attention. I suggest replacing with a high current fuse clip such as BK/1A1907-03 (Bussmann) or 0122088Z (Littelfuse)

Ed

F5_Problem (resized).jpgF5_Problem (resized).jpg

#17 6 years ago

I might have given some potentially misleading information, this morning I clipped one of the MOV's legs. The plug fuse was replaced, but the breaker appears to have triggered without the need oh Centaurs power switch to be on.

Where the blue cable enters the EMI F is that just dirt or a possible burn, am I worrying about nothing there?

Having somewhat tested the MOV can we now rule that out? (Of course, I need to replace it now it's been cut). So now I think I'll get a replacement EMI filter? G-P-E has suggested either Corcom 5VB3 or 5EB1 filter. So that's what I'll do unless anyone else has a better suggestion?

Thanks again Pinside community!

#18 6 years ago

A Pinside tip: If G-P-E posts it, it's pretty much gospel........

#19 6 years ago

I suggested (via your PM), to clip the MOV lead close to the solder joint (not next to the component). If you did, it could be resoldered back onto the lug.

That dark spot appears to be some kind of oil or liquid leaking out of the EMI filter. Therefore, I might suspect it as being a problem.

If you change the EMI filter, you might as well install a fresh MOV.

Okay, new approach:

Can you solder/unsolder (like changing a coil)?

Do you have a working ohm meter (DVM)?

If yes to both, you should check across the two spades of your line cord for a short. If you have a ground pin (not sure how things are typically wired overseas), you should check each spade to ground. No shorts should exist. If you find a short, it could be one of three things:

Shorted MOV (already been cut out of circuit).

Shorted EMI filter (never seen one in my 35 years of tech work, only ones that open up circuit. But then, I don't normally work with much equipment connected to 220).

A short in the line cord or plug. Check for crimp marks, if molded plug is replaced, suspect shorted wiring inside. I am not understanding your "replaced plug fuse"? I have never seen a fused plug other than on a string of Christmas lights.

If the cord and plug check out okay, one would unsolder the line cord from the EMI filter and retest for the short - across terminals on the EMI filter, and wires of the cord.

#20 6 years ago

I did indeed make the cut to the leg as close to the solder joint as I could.

Alright, as you say, EMI filters are pretty tough but possible. I think I'll purchase both EMI replacements options (Corcom 5VB3, 5EB1 filter, MOV and Fuse clips)

Yes, I'm not great, but I can get by.

Nope, but I could certainly look into purchasing one to test for shorts.

Thanks for all that advice. Inside of a UK plug looks like this, fuse inside blows each time. openplug (resized).jpgopenplug (resized).jpg

#21 6 years ago
Quoted from Loreilon:

I might have given some potentially misleading information, this morning I clipped one of the MOV's legs. The plug fuse was replaced, but the breaker appears to have triggered without the need oh Centaurs power switch to be on.

Quoted from Loreilon:

Thanks for all that advice. Inside of a UK plug looks like this, fuse inside blows each time.

If your fuse blows even with the power switch off there has to be a short in the wiring somewhere before the switch. You've disconnected the MOV so it can't be that. Without a meter to test I would inspect that live wire carefully all the way from the plug to the switch. My suspicion is that burnt fuse clip has a carbon path to ground but that clip shouldn't be before the power switch.

#22 6 years ago

No need to buy both if the 5VB3 is available locally.
Electrically, the 5VB3 is a drop in replacement with hookup leads like your existing filter. Shape of filter is a little different, though, so you will need to mount differently (mounting screws are on sides instead of ends).
The 5EB1 is the same filter but you either solder or use quick-connects to hook him up.

You can test the filter with a meter in resistance mode. There should not be a short between hot and neutral but you will see a bit of resistance between the two. About 10Mohm based on the label shown in your photo above. There should be no continuity at all between either hot or neutral and the case of the filter.

Original filter installed would actually be closer to Corcom's 3VB3 which would also work if you can find it. But I always thought the 3A version of power filter was a bit too dainty.
Did notice that Corcom still does sell the 3EP3 which is what you currently have installed. They cost more than 2x that of the other filters... I'd just go to the 5VB3.

#23 6 years ago
Quoted from G-P-E:

No need to buy both if the 5VB3 is available locally.

Okay, I'll go with the 5VB3 only, the one thing I'm slightly concerned about is as pictured, the EMI F already installed has 6 cables which I presume both the yellow/green are earth. Whereas the replacement 5VB3 had 5 cables as pictured on Farnell. Is this going to be a problem? 6 wire (resized).jpg6 wire (resized).jpg

#24 6 years ago

Yes, yellow/green (or sometimes solid green) is earth ground. Many EMls only have a single ground wire/connection. You could install an eyelet on the existing wire and put it under one of the mounting screw.

#25 6 years ago

Looks like a redundant ground connection.
Strange - the 3EP3 data sheet doesn't have 6-wires, it has five.

Can find the data sheet for these here:
http://www.alldatasheet.com/datasheet-pdf/pdf/351160/MACOM/3EP3.html

#26 6 years ago

As well as yourself, Vid.

#27 6 years ago

I have the parts ordered (Corcom 5VB3 plus MOVs and fuse clips recommended), now comes the wait.

Something else has just come to mind, that I noticed happening when the machine was functional. I figure it's information worthy of being made public, if I pushed the flipper button with a certain amount of pressure, as the flipper lifted I could see what appeared to be a flash through the small gap between the cab and the playfield. I really wish I'd opened the coin door and checked what was causing it. Anyone have any ideas on that, maybe sparks at F5?

If fuses did need replacing, is there a specific type I should be getting?

#28 6 years ago

It is common for the flipper button switch, as well as the Flipper Mechanism End of Stroke switch to "arc" when opening and closing. The arc occurs at just the right moment when the air gap is just right for power to jump across the air thereby creating the arc.

Additionally, the lower left flipper has a special end of stroke switch which is used to energize the upper left flipper. So it can produce an arc also.

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