(Topic ID: 48888)
Linked Games
Centaur
Bally, 1981-
Centaur II
Bally, 1983
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Quoted from semicolin:... I like to take my time.
I am taking the meticulous route myself, as this is a "keeper" machine. The new playfield is from the first run of CPR repros from about 10 years ago; I'm only just getting time to dig in. One insert had an edge lifted slightly. I sanded it down flat, then prepped and re-coated the whole thing with DuPont chroma-clear.
I will report back on whether the holes/dimples are in the correct places. Fortunately I can use the old playfield to compare (though it has several instances of topside hole placements that are off). The goal is to make the game look nice and play even better without having to mess with upgrading the flippers. I want to be able to knock down all 4 drop targets in the queen's chamber.
Quoted from Tallon:Make sure you use a bingo ball in the chamber. That’s what shipped originally and it does make a difference In completing the chamber
Bingo ball? Bingo ball? Are they still available? I think my machine might have a regular pinball in there. Queen's chamber is impossible to complete, even after rebuilding the linear flippers.
I looked them up and bingo balls are slightly larger in diameter than a pinball: 1-1/8"
They will be heavier if they are the same material. Wouldn't that make them harder to hit up to the top of the chamber?
Quoted from FatPanda:I might try this since mine needs a perfect shot from an already fast ball to hit the target in the back, plus I have a spare one I can toss in.
Let us know how that works. You might be a trendsetter!
Quoted from semicolin:There is much discussion earlier in this thread if you search for bingo.
Yeah I should have done that first. Bingo ball it is.
Quoted from vec-tor:I had the game back in 1980's The game was made with regular standard pinballs.
The distributor for Bally never had a service bulletin for changing the balls etc,etc,etc.
It is another pinside mod being treated as a fact.
"I can't wait when Pin Stadium lighting will be declared OEM to 1990 Data East pinballs".
You're the kind of Pinsider I like to hear from: someone with experience from back in the day. Thank you for sharing your knowledge.
OMG it's my immediate future. Thanks for sharing; at least I will be mentally prepared for the worst.
Quoted from vec-tor:No. It was just plain Blue tempered steel[quoted image]
I'm going to try spring stainless steel for this flap and see if it looks good.
3 weeks later
Quoted from nibre:I would be very grateful if someone could take a high resolution picture of this area (and send it to me).
[quoted image]
Here's a JPG made from the vector artwork - maybe it's good enough for your purposes.
Centaur_UpperShooterLane_300DPI (resized).jpgQuoted from Mikespinball:Hello club members,
I am working on a friends Centaur machine and have a few questions. This machine has not been operational for sometime and bringing back a dead machine is a bit challenging.
Anyhow I have got it back working again (original CPU) with the exception of the sound boards. I did purchase a cap kit from Big Daddy for the AS-2518-61B Squawk & Talk board, installed them along re-flowing pin connections. Also removed all chips (that are removable) cleaned their legs and re-installed. After all this work I still have no sounds. The S&T board appears to boot correctly, LED on turn on 1 quick flash followed by 4 flashes. I can also get white noise out of the speakers if I turn the volume all the way up. I am at a loss as where to go next. Is this a lost cause? Would I be better to replace it? I see Pinball Life carries a replacement board for the S&T board (not sure if this replaces both boards) and is it reliable as has anyone used this replacement board before?
Any help would be appreciated.
Mike
Did you re-cap the reverb board as well?
Quoted from Mikespinball:I did not, just the S&T. Do you think that would make a difference?
Since all the audio passes through the reverb board, yes. You might try bypassing it to see if there is audio coming from the squawk & talk board.
Quoted from Mikespinball:Okay, how do I do that?
You could connect a small speaker or headphones to pins 9 & 10 of the squawk & talk output. Then power on the game and press a flipper to hear the "Challenge me..." monologue.
If you get sound, then suspect the Say It Again board needs work.
Quoted from Mikespinball:Okay tried this test. I did hook up the bottom speaker to 9 &10 as you suggested, hope this speaker was okay to try with. I got no sounds when I pushed a flipper button. Was this incorrect using the speaker in the machine?
Would the next step be replacing the rom chips?
I just realized I had the pins wrong - tap into pins 8 and 9, NOT 9 and 10. 9 and 10 are both ground pins.
8 and 9 will give you the raw audio sent to the reverb board. 7 and 9 will give you the output of the reverb board (if the cable is connected).
Also, make sure the volume control on the inside of the coin door is turned up before re-trying the test. Finally, make sure you did not make any mistakes when re-capping the board. Electrolytic capacitors are polarity sensitive, as you know.
Quoted from Mad_Dog_Coin_Op:My Centaur magnet has been sorted out. It took me a couple hours but my repair worked so I'm happy. As you can see my coil had a screw take it out. I removed the coil from the game and started to remove the magnetic wire. At about 300' I found the first break. At 400' I found the second. I ditched the 100' broken section and re-attached the 300' foot lenght to the coil. It tested at 57 ohms after the repair.
[quoted image][quoted image][quoted image]
Dang, good job man! Watch out, everyone will be coming to you for magnet/coil repairs in the future.
Quoted from Zee:I just realized I had the pins wrong - tap into pins 8 and 9, NOT 9 and 10. 9 and 10 are both ground pins.
8 and 9 will give you the raw audio sent to the reverb board. 7 and 9 will give you the output of the reverb board (if the cable is connected).
Also, make sure the volume control on the inside of the coin door is turned up before re-trying the test. Finally, make sure you did not make any mistakes when re-capping the board. Electrolytic capacitors are polarity sensitive, as you know.
I was right the first time. I zoomed in on my PDF and saw that 9 and 10 ARE the correct pins for audio out. Sorry for the confusion....my mind is going.
Quoted from Mikespinball:Okay, so I did this test with no luck on sounds. Recommendations on what to do next?
Now you are getting into advanced electronic diagnostics. I would check J1 for corroded pins. Then I'd watch the inputs at J1 with a scope to make sure the sound select signals are making it to pins 1,2,3,4,12. I'd check the op-amps and if all those tests come out good, then go for the ROMS.
Hey, have any of you Centaur owners tried the replacement backglass offered by Marco/Planetary? I'm wondering about its quality...I tried a repro a few years ago but it was not very good.
https://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/G-440-20
http://www.planetarypinball.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=PPS-G-440-20V2&Category_Code=GS-476
I'm wondering how this compares to the original.
Thanks in advance.
2 weeks later
Quoted from CashMoney:Excited to be in the club! Scored this partially restored centaur with a new cab and CPR Playfield. Wow this such a cool and unique pin! Way ahead of its time IMO.
[quoted image][quoted image]
Congrats! Nice looking machine. Is it really a new cabinet, or a restored one? If new, do you know who made it?
Thanks,
-Zee
2 months later
Quoted from Llabnip1972:I just joined the club today. Dumb question. About 10 minutes After finishing a game all balls were released as I was cleaning the glass. Scared the shit out of me. Did I cause some kind of reset or is this part of the attract?
[quoted image][quoted image][quoted image]
You can turn it off via a dipswitch setting. Get the manual if you don't have one yet.
1 week later
Quoted from Mr_Outlane:So who here is hoping and waiting the the Haggis Centaur?
It would be interesting. Maybe they could make better use of the magnet. Better rendition of the centaur himself.
Endless possibilities but they would have the same problem as the makers of the newer star wars movies - how to treat the source material with reverence while stepping it up with the new version.
3 weeks later
1 week later
Quoted from Dakine747:Centaur inna HOUSE! WoooHOOOOO!!!
[quoted image][quoted image]
Congrats. It's a very special game.
1 week later
Quoted from SJ23:After playing this Centaur at my uncle's house for the past 30+ years, I finally talked him into selling it to me. My life is complete
[quoted image]
Your uncle is one cool dude.
1 month later
There are custom ROMs for this game that have a free play option. These also correct some rules issues and uses voice calls the regular ROM does not use (example: mess up the O-R-B-S sequence and he laughs at you). It makes the game much better.
Originally from pinball4you.ch but NLA from there.
The ROM files are a patch so you have to start with the original ROMs.
PM me for the ZIP file.
1 week later
Maybe use an LEDOCD board to tone down the LEDs. The poor fit issue has been reported for certain types of LED 555s...no easy solution for the ones you already have, short of what you are already doing.
As far as preference, I like the long life of the LEDs especially for hard-to-reach locations. For GI and any white lights, I try to match the color of incandescents as much as possible. Nothing screams "not original" like overly blue LEDs in an old game.
Quoted from Heretic_9:Is there some recommended cure for a flipper that briefly, intermittently sticks in an up or partly up position ? Short of a full flipper replacement or rebuild ? (Tapping on the flipper button a few times gets it to return to normal operation.) The problem is certainly rather annoying, and can impair effective game play.
I'm not fond of the Bally flipper mechanisms on Centaur. Seriously considering changing them to a more-modern design.
Quoted from Dakine747:I too use 2-smd frosted “sunlight” whites in the GI, and 2-smd color-matched bulbs for the controlled lamps. It’s a VERY dramatic look, especially during attract mode, but a perfect look for this game. I put a 3 smd (red) strip behind the Bally logo to eliminate the ‘half-lit’ look it had with a single red bulb. And finally, I disabled the flashing GI during attract mode too, as it was just too much. [quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image]
That looks great. Now the playfield artwork needs illumination too - the bright lights make it all but invisible.
I love the artwork which is very much a product of its time - with strong Heavy Metal influence. In fact, I am investigating some low-profile lighting to hide in the cabinet or somewhere on the playfield in order to illuminate the main characters.
1 month later
Quoted from Heretic_9:...A much easier way to convert the linear flippers to the older Bally style is to buy complete flipper assemblies. Below is a link to the complete assembly. Choose side and coil from the drop down menus. "...
Replacing the whole assembly is a LOT cleaner of a solution. But which coils?
2 weeks later
Quoted from RoyGBev:If this problem is the mechanism failing to mechanically load a ball into the launcher, and launch it, then I don't think it's inherent to the game.
I've had my Centaur since 2012 and played a few thousand games, and to my knowledge this has never happened, not even once. When it's time to launch a ball onto the playfield, it always works: First solenoid 14 (ball release) fires, then 15 (kick to playfield) fires, and the ball shoots out. Every single time. It's never not worked, to my knowledge. So it should be possible to fix and/or adjust the game to make this reliable. This is my experience with my current Centaur and one that I owned way back in the mid eighties.
What DOES sometimes happen about one out of ten times on my Centaur is, after I make the Guardians or Spell ORBS in sequence, a single ball is kicked to the playfield, and then the kick to playfield solenoid will fire again, with no ball, usually four times, with accompanying sound and playfield blackout, then the game will give up. This is not a problem with the mechanical ball release ball or launcher, because the single ball did load and launch. What's happening is, the MPU did not see switch 33 (end of trough) closing when the launched ball rolled past it, and so it thinks the ball is still in the launcher, and it's trying repeatedly to kick the ball out and looking for a pulse from switch 33.
If the MPU doesn't see switch 33 close, it's one of two things: Switch 33 is not working at all (broken/misadjusted/wiring/diode etc.), or switch 33 closed and opened so quickly that the MPU did not see it. In my machine it's apparently the latter, because the switch is good. I've tried adjusting the trip wire, and I installed a .05 switch cap on the switch to try to extend the pulse. I think that my trip wire is too short or the wrong shape, and that's why the pulse is too short.
Every time I've had a game "not see" a switch closure, the problem ended up being the switch itself. Even at a slow 1KHz scanning speed the switch closure will be "seen" several times as the ball rolls over it. Yes siree sonny, always the switch...
4 weeks later
Quoted from Heretic_9:Now that the immediate physical issues of the game seem to have been satisfactorily addressed, I'm going to revisit the earlier discussion of those updated game ROMs, with somewhat different gameplay and callouts. It remained unclear to me whether this amounted to enough of a positive difference to be worth bothering with. (No one ever provided a list of the changes . . . . ) And if it required changing more than a couple board chips (?), and those swapped out relatively easily, I'd be inclined to pass.
From the Readme:
freeplay:
if dip switch 25 = on and dip switch 26 = on freeplay is enable: decrease credits not lower then 01
coin 3 works now same as coin 2, dip 17 - 20 has new meaning
dip17 = off, flashing 50k and getting 50k for hitting orbs in sequence
dip18 = on , erase bonus after one ball total
dip19 = off, don't give power orb during multiball
if orb targets are out of sequence laught (but only if O was the first target you drop)
Dual target hits for ORBS target enabled (we wait two flashes until we detect an out of sequence error...)... change speech:
When (no multiball is running) or (multiball is running an dip 19 = on) and all ORBS dropped in sequence we say:
"Sequence completed activate Power Orb"
otherwise if all orbs are not dropped in sequence we say "energize power orb"
If multiball is running and all ORBS are droppend in sequence (with dip19 = off) we say "Sequence completed activate Power Orb"
if Multiball is running and all orbs are dropped not in sequence (withdip19 = off) we say "completed"
Installation notes:
read the file readxxx.txt file
create (based on your orignal roms) customs roms
Burn the two files on 2732 eprom
After power on you will see the version number in the player one display.
Quoted from MtnFrost:I have those updates in my machine. Pretty cool.
My fav is the taunting laugh when you don't get the ORBS targets in sequence.
2 weeks later
Quoted from Bryan_Kelly:Anyone have tear down or shop out pics? In particular, the underside of the playfield? I've got some things on mine I'm not sure are correct.
Also, where might I find more specific info like correct coils and such?
And exploded views of assemblies?
Download the manuals from IPDB.org.
I put a boatload of pre-teardown photos of a stock machine on google drive:
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1gbJoD-2TPBD_dR-qq1ajB_7WF3g_QSc8?usp=sharing
2 months later
Quoted from Malfeitor:Thanks man. Was a quite a lot work. The lettering on the sides are cutouts for light to ghost light the red acrylic backgrounds of each letter. About the 3rd or 4th pic shows the polished stainless over translucent acrylic. When it's finished, it will be very dim red glow centaur. When I reverse engineered the cabinet I siezed the opportunity to correct the head depth (about 3/4" deeper) since most heads are too shallow/short and the art didn't register correctly from the factory. Also since the heads on these mostly weren't hinged, I designed in a better head platform to make it more solid. I plan to nudge this machine pretty hard and dont want the head getting wonky over time.
[quoted image]
I think this is going to be the best Centaur in the world when you're done.
Quoted from Blu:I played the new code cover the weekend at a local tournament. What a cool update. I went in thinking it was scoring higher, but the rest of the folks in my group averaged around 800k, but they weren’t able to bring in any additional balls, or get jackpot. In the 3 games I played on it I averaged 2m.
New rules: https://indd.adobe.com/view/4130b4cd-9b6b-44ee-bd43-4451f0e05f61
First I've heard of this. Are there more details somewhere we can read? I'm already running the home version that makes use of the unused speech and has free play (don't want to lose those features).
Thanks,
-Zee
Quoted from Blu:The guy coded it via Arduino. Evidently not for sale, but cool rule set for the game.
I see. That puts it firmly in "nope" territory for me. Thanks for the info.
Quoted from Heretic_9:Thanx for that list.
In Post # 1804, ant_ wrote:
"If anyone else has some examples like that, feel free to chime in.
Funhouse: I always thought Rudy was saying "How odd" when everybody else told me it's "Power up".
3 months later
Quoted from Heretic_9:I think this era of games considerably predated the mods craze / addition of extra toys etc. You could probably LED it without any major complications . . . but then, I wouldn't be particularly keen on improving the view of THAT artwork; better to leave it dark. And I'm fine with the factory ROMs.
Have been playing this every day now for some time. Cleaning & Waxing the pf, on top of the return gates adjustment I described previously, has made a very favorable difference. A minor jolt-nudge is returning way more balls that would have drained, and the waxing even has certain balls returning through the gates on their own. Have been securing MB stacked upon MB, and edging ever closer to the 6.5 Mil. GC score left by the previous owner.
I agree: there are no must-have mods. You either keep it original and tuned-up or make subtle, tasteful, reversible improvements to get the best enjoyment (and resale value) out of a game.
Quoted from Geocab:Sorry, I wasn't referring to toys or other mods of that sort, more like on how on a Williams System 6, you beef up resistors and MOSFETs, etc. My poor wording.
Re-capping the squawk-and-talk board is a good idea if it has never been done. On a game this old, pretty much every capacitor on all boards will be going or gone.
Quoted from Geocab:Ok, no reverb on the Centaur I just picked up. Could it be anything other than the Say It Again board? I'm still driving home, so I can't look at it until tomorrow. But I may wait until the weekend when I have more time.
Re-cap the Say-it-Again board or it could be that the reverb chip is dead - these are NLA but you can substitute another reverb circuit. Parts4Pinballs used to sell a replacement reverb board but I don't see it on their site anymore - maybe contact them and ask if they have any left over.
Marco has replacement reverb boards:
https://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/AS-2518-81-PB
1 week later
Quoted from Geocab:I know the home ROMs add Centaur's laugh into gameplay, but does it also add it to adding credits? When I played in league, there was a Centaur II and when you added a quarter he would laugh and then say, "Energize me." My game just says, "Energize me" without the laugh when I add a credit.
Oliver's home rom does not require adding any credits; the start button is always active. I think he described it as "credits never less than 1" or something like that.
Quoted from Joydivision:I remember some discussion a few years ago about trying to determine who's voice was actually used for Centaur.
I know who: this centaur!
AngryHorseman (resized).jpgQuoted from Heretic_9:I'm gonna have to disagree here: I really like being able to stack MB upon MB upon MB -- with all the ensuing crazy action -- and in a follow-on post you will see why. If you wanted to make the game harder, IMO all you'd need to do is to set it as a 3 Ball Game. Mine has been left set to 5 for almost the entire time I've had it.
5 ball? Unlimited multiball? Where's the challenge in all that if you can roll the score?
Quoted from EvanDickson:I'm so close to getting this thing nicely dialed in, but I've got another headscratcher. Well, two of them, but they may be related.
When I earn a single add-a-ball, the autolauncher fires more than once. Is this normal behaviour, or is something wrong there? I'm unsure if the code counts balls remaining to add, or if to save bytes of code they made it always fire 5 consecutive times.
On the opposite side of the coin, when I start multiball, the ball feeder intermittenly doesn't fire enough times. It's intermittent - sometimes all 4 additional balls will enter play, sometimes just 1 or 2 (and I'm talking with "maximum orbian strength achieved"). The feeder seems to move freely without friction when I wiggle it with my finger. The wires are firmly soldered to the coil lugs.
Has anyone ever experienced these?
Video demonstrations:
autolauncher fires multiple times for single add-a-ball:
launcher feeder does not fire enough times to feed all balls for multiball:
It looks like the balls are not dropping down into the auto-launcher.
Quoted from EvanDickson:Correct, there's a feeder coil that whacks then over there, but it doesn't always fire enough times. But seems to have solid electrical connection and no internal friction.
Seems like a sticky switch symptom then.
3 weeks later
Quoted from hisokajp:hmmm not great but i mean it's really crazy :/
here is a video of it:
https://1drv.ms/v/s!Ahxi0c_5v2PVp48NBQPq1b5uHwLgZw?e=7Jtouh
Well you created you own problem there with the super-bright LEDs. Time to get creative and solve it like they did with the LEDOCD boards. Or you could install a GI cut-off relay triggered by the flipper enable relay or something.
Quoted from Geocab:I wish I were savvy enough to develop an LED OCD type solution that would make them pulse slowly, or bypass the flashing altogether when in attract mode, but still work during gameplay.
Tie into the flipper enable relay coil power to run another 48V relay that connects/disconnects the GI power. You could add a variable resistor to the normally-open contacts on the new relay that runs the GI at a lower level when de-energized.
1 week later
It just makes sense to crate a game for shipment. These are highly valuable items - why leave anything to chance? A bit of work to be sure but in my opinion it must be done!
1 month later
Quoted from GKW:I am still in need of the curved part of the upper playfield trough. This is the part where the ball kicker passes through. Does anyone have one that they would like to sell? Thank you!
[quoted image]
I don't have one I can sell, but I can tell you what I'd do in your situation:
I would make one out of paper, then take it to a sheet metal shop and have them make one.
All they would need is the paper pattern and that photo. Bring it home, test fit. If it needs modification that cannot be done at home, take it back and have the shop modify it.
Extra credit:
Have some extras made and sell them
Extra Extra credit:
Make patterns of all those pieces and have them made as a set and then sell those. It could finance the whole project!
4 months later
Quoted from Billc479:I think my Centaur is getting ready to die... Thanks
Don't panic - these are just electromechanical machines and can be fixed!
Maybe the switch isn't working. Take the glass off, start a game and test the switches manually.
Use the built-in tests to check things over.
Clean the harness and board connections with DeOxit or something similar.
4 months later
Quoted from dung:Shopping mine out now. Have it torn down, but did notice the magnet is locked on as soon as its powered up. Going to have to dig up the schematics and see what drives it.
Must say, the trough in this game is wild.
The trough is pure genius! If I recall, it was designed that way to save switch inputs.
Quoted from monkfe:yeah it is...when I was putting my playfield back together, it was quite a puzzle to put back together as the game came in pieces (but good pics). How exactly does it work? It seems that it diverts a ball over to the right subway rail, but then others go to the shooter lane correct?
I think this topic needs a key post on the theory of operation of the ball trough, shooter lane feeder and autolaunch mechanism.
2 months later
Quoted from semicolin:I recorded this video a couple of years ago:
That's good! If we could add in what switches are activated as balls go through (and symptoms when these go bad), it would get us closer to a complete picture of how it all works.
3 weeks later
Quoted from Deez:Thanks guys. I couldn't find a picture and that's probably why.
This bothered me so much that I installed a post in that location right after I got my Centaur!
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