If you think Afm is repetitive, then I’m not sure why you’d grab a Cactus Canyon. It’s on the same level of repetitiveness.

My bet is more than $500.

My guess is that there are long lists. I know I’m on three for an LE. I bet all the LEs will be spoken for by people on the interested lists.

I think you are thinking the right way about the Lyman code cost. I’m right with you. I think people will be surprised to see how much it is. If it was $1000 I wouldn’t be shocked at all. Some toppers are $1000 and they don’t add anything to them game.

Ouch…

I know one distributor told me they haven’t been given their allotment from CGC yet.

How about moving to a lottery system for such high demand pins? That would eliminate preferential treatment and racing to get on the “list”. I’ve been on three CCR lists since the beginning of summer. I haven’t heard from any of those three distributors yet, so we shall see. However, a lottery seems like a better approach. For example, should I get on the “list” now for CGC’s release in 2025? It’s not sour grapes, just making a point.

I’m sure but that only makes any real sense if those people have to make a commitment to make the purchase when being put on the “list”. There is no downside to getting on the “list” because you can just pass on the title anyway. A lottery seems easier for everyone including the distributor.

If they allow SE owners to buy the topper separately, presumably at a price of about $1000, then the total cost of the SE is only $250 less than the LE. That means they are basically one in the same at that point and that doesn’t make any sense. The only things that make the LE different at that point are a bit of wood and a plaque. The LE plaque at that point would be a bit of a joke.

I don’t know if the seller is the ass or the buyer…

I have to say that I agree. I think CGC always intended the topper to be exclusive to the LE. I would be disappointed if they intentionally tried to wordsmith the feature descriptions to leave it ambiguous as to what their intentions were with the topper and, to be honest, I don’t CGC would ever be that sly with their wording in that fashion. If they did, it would just be misleading and that’s really bad business. I think to most everyone it was pretty clear that the intent was to make the topper exclusive to the LE. If that wasn’t the case, then there is really no reason to get the LE. To me, it’s just common sense and I don’t know how CGC can now back track on that. I think they just need to live with it on this one and do something different with the next release.

I’m pretty sure “only” and “exclusively” mean the same thing. I don’t get the argument that CGC didn’t intended the topper to be exclusive to the LE. They did and that’s what they advertised. The only question is whether they are going to change their mind and go against what they advertised.

I think most people are missing the point with their arguments regarding the topper. The marketing materials clearly said it was included with the “Limited Edition only”. If they change their mind, it’s because hindsight is 20-20. It has nothing to do with flippers or value or excluding SE buyers. It has to do with what they said they would do.

Think about it in other industries. If I quoted a fee for a work project and found out after the fact I could have charged more, do I go back to the client and say - Forget my original fee quote, I’m now expecting to get paid some greater dollar amount based on facts I learned after the fact? No. You live with it and stay true to your word and make adjustments next time. It’s just good business. I think the real question here is just the difference between right and wrong and nothing else.

Are you referring to the LE or SE buyers?

Your examples are poor and really not applicable. There is a difference between an estimate and final bid. Plus, I’m sure there is language in any contract with a contractor that says if they find mold in the walls or something the price will change. Anyway, what you are referring to are estimates, which are subject to change. So, for example, if CGC said they estimates the price of a pin to be $8,000 then that price is subject to change. The only language I saw from CGC was - Limited Edition only. It didn’t say subject to change or anything like that. If it did, that would be more along the lines of an estimate.

My example using price is merely an example to illustrate the concept of an estimate. We are talking about toppers. With that being said, if you look at the thread, Doug from CGC said he will be policing distributors pricing practices, so I believe he intends the price to be the price. Besides, take a look at the attached pic. Where does it say MSRP?

3C5524AF-9450-407B-A71F-4091CA0825F1 (resized).png

What?

I’m still happy with my LE purchase, but I do think the difference between the SE and LE is now very minimal. With that being said, can’t wait for my ship date!

I was thinking something similar. Maybe they can do something to further differentiate the LE from the SEs other than the topper. There really isn’t much difference now.

I’d even pay a little extra for it as an LE buyer.

So, only buyers from PPS can get a mirrored back glass?? I have a deposit on an LE and have been opened minded on the topper issue. However, as an LE buyer, I think I should have the ability to get the best possible version of the game. My deposit isn’t with PPS and if only PPS customers can get the mirrored back glass then I guess there is a second tier of LE now and I think that it is total BS.

I have to say that I’m kind of tired of vague wording. This shouldn’t be this complicated. As someone who has a deposit down on an LE, I didn’t concern myself with the topper issue. However, I do expect to be able to get the absolute best version of the game and that includes the back glass. I’ll see how it all plays out, but my patience is running thin. It’s just too complicated and I’m not sure it’s worth it.

I second that and am in the exact same position as you.

That’s true, but with a refund the LE buyers don’t get what they bargained for and what they were clearly told they would receive. A refund doesn’t fix that.

CGC clearly stated the topper came with the “LE only”. That’s what CGC said not any Pinsider or LE buyer. Those were CGC’s words and only CGC’s words. I guess your definition of “free market” is that people can just do whatever they want, which I guess at the end of the day they can, but at what cost?

I’ll remember your position if I ever sell you a pin. Once we agree on a price and shake hands on the deal, I’ll be glad to know that immediately thereafter I can change my mind and tell you I need another $1000 to do the deal and you won’t have a problem with it.

I guess they are crazy because that’s that they said they would do…until they changed their mind.

I disagree. The best they could have done was to honor their original deal and what they said at the outset. That would have been the best course of action and the safest, but maybe not the most profitable in the short term.

The features matrix said the topper was “LE only”. It’s been posted on this thread i don’t know how many times yet people still seem to miss or overlook that fact. Take a look.

Please explain how the wording “Topper (limited edition only)” is ambiguous.

So you now agree the language isn’t ambiguous?

The issue with your other angle is that it isn’t what happened. That’s not the set of facts we are working with. At the end of the day, I feel CGC broke a clear representation that buyers relied on. Period. Nothing that has happened after that point in time matters. They don’t need to do anymore or any less than what they originally represented. They just need to honor what they originally said they would.

Yes. And that is the issue. Well said.

I think “only” and “exclusive” are one in the same and mean the same thing. In fact, I just googled the definition of “only” and it says “exclusively”.

Well, if you are new to the thread and revisit the posts you will see a lot is and wasn’t clear, so I guess we all just need to roll with it.

I’m going to guess that CGC has that covered with the final production design…pun intended.

Zach M mentioned on his podcast that CGC is doing 500 SEs between now and the end of the year and then is moving to LEs. Yes, 500 sounds like a lot in that timeframe.

I’m sure but they are only doing 500 and then doing the LEs or at least that’s what Zach M. said.

I think you should keep an open mind until you see it in person. I’m willing to bet it looks pretty good in person.

I’m still trying to figure out why all of this is so complicated and opaque.

I appreciate the response but respectfully disagree. The entire process has been opaque. In terms of the backglass, it’s not opaque to you because you are an insider. However, it’s opaque to me. No one has communicated anything to me about the backglass. I have an LE order with Flip N Out and I don’t believe Zach has any information on the backglass. I’m not concerned about it but to say this hasn’t been opaque is, in my opinion, quite a stretch.

I think this is a good range. From what I’ve heard and, take it for what it’s worth, it doesn’t sound like the Lyman code is going to be a complete rework. In other words, I don’t think it is as big a project or overhaul as some of us thought it would be.

Wasn’t complaining, was just saying…

Maybe we should keep this a secret amongst ourselves? Not sure it makes sense to let CGC or any other manufacturer how much we are all willing I spend. If the price is high, we can then blame ourselves. At least in part.

It’s just one of those odd things in pinball where people seem to like to brag about how much they will spend whereas with pretty much any other hobby or purchasing environment the less you spend the better.

In the end, “they know” because we keep telling them.

I agree, especially with the the debate on how the reveal was handled. Let’s just move on no matter what your view of the reveal may be. Hopefully, pins will start shipping soon and things appear to point towards CCR being a fantastic pin.

I get what your saying, but last week wasn’t really a full holiday week and it only takes a few minutes for Mr. Duba to post on this thread anyway. When there were issues with the launch and sales were on the line, he seemed very willing to post. Just a simple observation. I’m not worked up about it and I have an LE ordered.

I think you are missing the point. I think most everyone feels the same way. They just want an update. Not a lot to ask and just seems like a good business move from a PR standpoint.

I think you are missing the point. I didn’t suggest that they rush production or sacrifice quality in any way. However, if CGC or any business says something is going to happen and it doesn’t, then I think it’s appropriate and good business practice to communicate with your customers, people that are spending a lot of money on your product. CGC said games would ship in 2021. They didn’t. That’s fine, but don’t go silent. Why didn’t they ship? You mention component and shipping delays but CGC knew all of that when they said games would ship in 2021. The component and shipping delays aren’t new developments. I have an LE ordered and am not worried about anything, but I would like to be treated by CGC with a little respect. That’s all. It’s a two minute post on Pinside. Not a lot of effort on their part.

Look who is talking

I’ve finally met the smartest guy in the room. I’m slow because I know he’s known all the time.

What?

He wouldn’t have his audience then.

No. No concern whatsoever. Why do you think there is any chance they would do that? Just curious.

If Mr. Duba wasn’t so willing to chime in when sales were on the line, the lack of updates wouldn’t really bother me. However, because he did and now has his sales, there hasn’t been any updates despite missing a shipping deadline. I guess that’s really my issue with the lack of updates.

Honestly, it doesn’t bother me that much, just adding to the discussion. I just think an update is the right thing to do from a business standpoint. However, I appreciate your smart recommendation.

Only rumors and educated guesses.

Terribly sad news. What a loss for the pinball community. I’m sure almost every one in this thread touched a Lyman pin at one point or another. He was the master.

Tilt in Minneapolis has an SE ready to play at 2:00 today.

I don’t think there is anything wrong with what he said. He was just stating his opinion which he is entitled to do. He wasn’t being rude or disrespectful.

It’s not a matter of right or wrong. It’s just an opinion and if you agree with it or not. More importantly, it’s all about being respectful!