Quoted from jfh:

I don’t disagree. I just don’t think they deliberately worded the text to be misleading. Someone probably cut and pasted from the AFM page as a template and didn’t clean things up. A mistake, not a deliberate intent to deceive.
As for Day 1, I’m sure CGC wants a do-over on the reveal more than anyone. Maybe Ryan was exhausted or wasn’t prepared or was flustered by the projection glitches, or a last-minute decision was responsible (though I hope the video wasn’t supposed to be the entire presentation).

Quoted from J85M:

What a bunch of whiny self entitled babies.
Unless your looking to flip an LE, what is the problem? If you wanted the LE and got an LE because that is the model you wanted awesome!
Same thing was argued for years over a possible TRON vault with lighted ramps, I had 2 TRON LEs and I was all for a vault with lighted ramps. It wouldn’t make me enjoy my LEs any less.
First world problems regarding an inessential toy we should all remember we are lucky enough to be to afford.

Quoted from dapperdan24:

Yeah, Dude, I do. And have been on the list since a month before release. And STILL want it.

I am still hoping to be one of the "screwed" LE buyers.

Only if you put your money where your mouth is and BACK OUT!!!

Again, please take your business from them so I might have a chance to become a screwed LE buyer

Quoted from cooked71:

OMFG you LE buyers.
In Australia this means you got a $3000 topper (plus a bunch of very cool LE only extras) for literally doing nothing
LE price aud$16990
SE price aud$13990
SE+ will have to be aud$16990
So you got the $3000 topper plus the LE extras and the inherent LE flip margin ($5k??) for literally doing nothing but putting your name on a list and you’re all still whining.

Quoted from CosmoJoe:

So LE pre-orders can just cancel. I'm sure there is a long line of people who would love the LE and aren't angry over someone with an SE having a topper, lol.

Quoted from cooked71:

They also got the right to cancel with no penalty.

Quoted from CoolCatPinball:

Then get a refund for fucks sake

Quoted from t2000tjt:

What exactly "MUCH less" are they providing you? You could certainly pay the same amount for the SE+ and give me your LE for the same price.
They aren't providing you anything less... they are providing other an opportunity to pay more (the same amount you paid, to get less than what you got)

Quoted from t2000tjt:

I don't get it. If someone sold me a Vodka Cranberry with Grey Goose in it for $10 or just cranberry juice for $7. Then they decided to offer Aristocrat Vodka with Cranberry for $10. Why would you be mad? Your Grey Goose didn't get worse, their drink isn't as good as yours and they paid the same. This certainly would not devalue your drink as they are not the same.
If they sold the SE+ at $8,800 or something I could see a reason to be mad.

Quoted from Krupps4:

I disagree. The best they could have done was to honor their original deal and what they said at the outset. That would have been the best course of action and the safest, but maybe not the most profitable in the short term.

Quoted from cooked71:

But didnt they state on launch at expo that they had not decided about the topper availability?

Quoted from CosmoJoe:

Not yet. Please cry more about it. Clench your fists too, that might also help.

Quoted from flynnibus:

If you don’t like what you bought they are offering your money back. End of story
Le buyers are already getting the most cost effective version of the game as well.

Quoted from CosmoJoe:Deleted post

Quoted from iceman44:

I don’t know wtf is going on in Australia anyhow Cookie!
Let me be the Dick in the room once again.
As a “collector” that spends a lot of $$ on high end games that I like we don’t like to see the rarity factor (1250 is now rare?) or the “collectibility” diminished in what we are buying.
The SE buyers or ones that missed out up front will say F you, I want a topper too. Everybody gets a trophy!
You gotta pick your lane, and you can’t have it both ways.
Why do companies offer up and then consumers buy an “LE”?
Because it’s limited! And you guys can say whatever you want but YOU ALL want these high priced games to maintain their value at a minimum.
I’m sure, after the fact, CGC and PPS realized they left a shit ton of $$$ on the table when 1,250 went flying out the door.
Well hey, we are gonna be seen as the good guys by keeping LE prices lower than Stern and when the actual bubble does pop we will already be priced much better
When you take “collectors” and high end buyers for granted, that is how you blow up the money train that is barreling down the tracks.
To say to the LE buyers, “if you don’t like what we did then just get a refund” is F ing crazy mentality. There will come a day…
Bottom line, it is what it is and good for the SE buyers that they get the trophy too. It’s incorporated in the game and I get it BUT the topper is the signature calling card for CGC, period, hard stop!
Next time, either have ONE version of a game OR price the LEs to a point where you sell the numbers and maintain the “collectibility” factor

Quoted from flynnibus:

You are now involving a 3rd party that has nothing to do with CGC’s obligations. If someone was that impatient and that focused on ‘exclusivity’… well they gambled and lost.
A horrible bet to make given CGC left this door open 10mins after showing the game and everyone knows reruns are possible.

Quoted from t2000tjt:

Did you pay over retail because of the rarity and value going forward or because you wanted the topper?
If the first, then nothing has changed, if the latter, then cancel your order and pay $9250 for the SE+

Quoted from flynnibus:

Yes it does
When you return a broke product at target do you demand something more in return too???
If you don’t like the sale - you can walk away scott free. That’s the restitution any court would offer too. You literally have no other harm done.

Quoted from Krupps4:

So you now agree the language isn’t ambiguous?
The issue with your other angle is that it isn’t what happened. That’s not the set of facts we are working with. At the end of the day, I feel CGC broke a clear representation that buyers relied on. Period. Nothing that has happened after that point in time matters. They don’t need to do anymore or any less than what they originally represented. They just need to honor what they originally said they would.

Quoted from jfh:

That was on the original matrix. The new matrix doesn’t say LE only.

Quoted from metallik:

They decided not to make the product you want to buy. Take the offered refund.

Quoted from flynnibus:

Yes - impatient. We all know games will be available for sale later and there is a high chance of reruns of new editions. And in the very reveal… the company said the tooic was still to be decided.
If people want to pay more now to some 3rd party to get in… that’s a choice they have to own.
CGC said in the reveal it was undecided if topper would be sold after the fact. People wanting to ignore that… again own it.
All this butt hurt over not having something exclusive…. Talk about childish. So upset that others might have something. it’s really sad.

Quoted from CoolCatPinball:

Still, take the refund, or take the pin. That's your choices. Or I guess you could hire an attorney...</

Still, take the refund, or take the pin. That's your choices. Or I guess you could hire an attorney...

Quoted from cooked71:

They criminally underpriced the LE.

Quoted from flynnibus:

You are still gettthe same product. If you aren’t happy with what you think that product is anymore- you can walk away. The fact you don’t want that says you are more obsessed with having something someone else doesn’t.
You have zero harm - we are talking about a future purchase FFS! Its not like you had it in hand or anything.

Quoted from flynnibus:

So you are going to buy a 9300 dollar game solely to prove harm was done? You literally can walk away… but uou want to prove something?
Everyone knows companies will remake games if the demand is there. Stop trying to hide from that to make yourself think something is exclusive or special. The only thing that matters is ‘can i get it if i want it…’

Quoted from CoolCatPinball:

No need to apologize, I know it's true. And I never played a class warfare card. Anyone able to spend the money we do on toys should consider themselves fortunate. You are proving the simple fact I was trying to make. The LE is limited to 1250 machines and a true enthusiast or collector who wants one will do what they need to do to acquire one. They don't want a look alike or a lesser version. Therefore, my point was, the LE guys really shouldn't be worried about diminished value or exclusively. Their LE is still 1 of 1250, regardless of other models released by CGC.

Quoted from flynnibus:

So who are you lobbying for? No one has this game - and those with deposits who are no longer happy with their future outlook they can walk away with zero harm.
You are crying about a future potential… sorry your pinball machine won’t be as valuable as you hope it would be. Please find another investment category… PLEASE

Quoted from iceman44:

No point in arguing with this guy. Trust me.

Quoted from metallik:

Agreed. Some people here are acting like 5 year olds when you take their toys away. I like that the rich guys' money funds a lot of this hobby, but the maturity level at the top leaves something to be desired

Quoted from metallik:

Love when ignorant people post LOL
My boyfriend finished the entire game on ball 1. First game. We have zero interest in buying either model right now, no legs at all. Definitely taking another look when the Lyman code drops, but this one is a no go.
Every single one of your dozens of posts here are whining about the extra toppers. You're not jealous that the proles are also getting the shootout as well now are you?

Quoted from metallik:

Ok, I'll bite: what am I supposedly jealous of here? It's certainly not of your games: I own or have owned every title you do. Just don't feel a need to show them off here. There is literally nothing else I could possibly be envious about you, certainly not your personality
You never answered, are you jealous of others getting the topper? "But the AGREEMENT!!1"

Quoted from metallik:

You're tearing yourself down. All I'm asking is why you're so jealous that people can add the topper to their SEs? Why does it bother you so much that others can pay more to get the same thing you have? I seriously don't get that mentality. And then you call me jealous? Yeah, that's hypocrisy.

Quoted from Yelobird:

You two should consider getting a room to wrestle it out lol.

Quoted from Dr-pin:

So you get a better deal then everybody else and are still complaining?
Maybe it´s time to stop this LE nonsense for spoiled people?
To my experience such people will never be satisfied anyway.

Quoted from Dr-pin:

I really dont dismiss it.
It´s just hard for me to understand, but i guess that depends on how you think.
If i get a good deal, i´m happy. If someone else does to, then it´s good for them. I´ll be happy for them to and acknowledge the fact, that the more games, the better availabilty for mods, spare parts people to help you, better for pinball, etc.
Also....
"the deal changed"
In a minor sense maybe, but you got exactly the game that was promised?
Well, you had to bare the eternal pain that other got a minor improvment on their deal. Still not as good as yours. I feel your pain, i really do.
Guess i´m not a speculator.

Quoted from zpinman370:

You can just read thru this thread and see that most of the guys doing the complaining are self entitled a-holes that claim to make all kinds of $$$, say they are the greatest ( I have a Centurion card don't you know ) to stroke their overblown ego's and still want their precious to hold or make them even more $$$.
We should all practice gratitude rather than attitude
I am betting most will put a handful of games on them and then just look at their shinny bauble rather than enjoy the fun aspect of trying to get a high score etc. that makes this such a great hobby.
Then you have the speculator/flipper that just got a bit burnt on what they thought could make some quick $$$, so for that, we should all be grateful. The speculation is an unhealthy and recent trend that is just driving prices up all over.
In the end it's pinball we should ALL count ourselves lucky we can enjoy such a great hobby

Quoted from JSC:

Anyone know if the topper only moves when engaged in the mini game or if it reacts to other situations.

Quoted from mbeardsley:

Umm...LE buyers are still getting EXACTLY the deal they signed up for. The change is that some SE buyers can get a different deal than what THEY signed up for.
If CGC had said that LE machines no longer came with the topper (or the SE+ machines came with a better topper), then maybe you could complain.
Besides, if you really think you are being ripped off - they will give you your deposit back (and a hundred others will be ready to take your place).
You are not upset that you are getting a bad deal - you are upset that someone else is ALSO getting a good deal. Seems petty (and sad) to me.

Quoted from flynnibus:

1) because you didn’t get anything or stuck with anything. If you don’t like the future outlook just walk away
2) anyone thinking LE are going to be worth lots of money and are stressed more about that than what oinball game they got are toxic
3) thinking this was going to be a gold mine because of exclusivity is naive given the past history of new editions everywhere
It boils down to if you don’t like the deal… walk. Instead people want to clench over futures they thought would play out… yet no one will ever live through.
Its like having a concert/show canceled… your ‘exclusive’ opportunity didn’t come to be. Move on… not pound your fists about the future you were denied and what someone is going to give you for your loss…. Get bent

Quoted from mbeardsley:

I think you need to provide a more detailed response here.
To quote Monty Python - "This is just contradiction. An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition. Contradiction is just the automatic gainsaying of any statement the other person makes."
The LE buyers made the assumption that the topper would not be available through other means. Now that their assumption has proven to be false, they are upset.
As to whether that was a reliable assumption, well, CGC's toppers for AFM and MB were not available outside the LE, but the MM topper was.
You could argue that the MM topper was a special exception, but the CC topper has a gameplay element (which could also be considered a special exception).
The end result is, if you are unhappy - cancel your order for an LE and buy the SE+ (if you really think those people somehow got a better deal).

Quoted from flynnibus:

The rarity of the game hasn’t changed. It still will be unique and limited run. There are still things exclusive for the LE - just not the topper.
Mods won’t make non LEs an LE.
So call if exactly what it is… angst over the topper

Quoted from aeneas:

Who knows if that is not their plan ?
They need to keep Lyman busy when CCL is done
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Anyway it's not going to be possible to extract a rom to put in an original CC.
Maybe the assets can be extracted and put into CCC v2..

Quoted from sizzler747:That might be the only model they have left to sell.

Quoted from Only_Pinball:

That's correct

Quoted from explosiveegg:

I'm reposting this because it's coming up again.
Just to remind people, this is what Doug said when they announced the SE+ edition on page 57 of this thread.
"After discussions with our dealers and customers, we have decided to add an option to purchase CCr-SE with the topper. The CCr-SE+ will include all the features of CCr-SE plus the Wild West Shootout Topper. CCr-SE+ will retail for $9,250. Dealers will be initially allocated an equal number of this new model as their LE allocation. There are currently no plans to offer the topper separately."
Hence. 1250 was always the number of CCr SE+ they planned to create. They left it opened ended incase they need to create more in the future, but are at this time only planning for that amount.

Quoted from explosiveegg:

I blame Eight Ball Deluxe Limited Edition.
Like it's not only a Deluxe version, but it's also a Limited Edition... Williams knew what they were doing. /sarcasm

Quoted from flynnibus:

In that video he covered two separate ideas - don't munge them together.
He boasted they had 850 playfields screened for the next game (CC). SEPARATELY he was pointing out games were being built now - aka CGC wasn't idle, they were still producing games right now. But those games weren't necessarily CC.
All which makes sense because the playfield production process is a slow, tedious process due to all the screening steps. It's also stuff they can easily store and stack in the warehouse once completed.

Quoted from Quadrat:

Coming from a mgf company. I would not give an update in a forum. Part of the problem is that you're told two more weeks before they can get some needed parts (or whatever is the date was)from one vendor. You share that info or give an updated schedule based on that. Now they come back and say the two weeks is more like three to five weeks, now you have egg on your face. Now whatever you say to the group some will not believe you. Damn if you do damn if you don't. Best way to get an answer is go direct to Doug or Ryan. I not saying you'll get anything but I think you will have a better chance. Likely the answer would be something like, We're waiting on parts, vendors not making promised dates. Can't give good updated schedule at this time. Please know we're doing everything we can to give the best product to our customers.

Quoted from Tallon:

Go lay down by your dish. Men are talking

Quoted from Tallon:

So, let me get this straight, someone calls you out on a false premise and your all offended. Then jumps another conversation like a little kid needing attention and yet again gets offended.
Ok let me make an offer. I can be over to Lloyds when he opens tomorrow and we can have an adult conversation over some pinball and play some CGC games discussing the new CCr.
So how keyboard commando are you now?
On a side note, going to Texas pinball if the guy from Texas wants to do the same
Super excited to see if the game of the code is gonna hit first.

Quoted from beltking:

Podcast saying few weeks on standards and next month in le. Ballpark

Quoted from Yoreland:

Can't find a flipnout pinball podcast, there's flipnoutpinball.com but I don't see a podcast with that title anywhere. Do you have a link?
Thx!

Quoted from jfh:

Ryan showed racks of them in the SFGE (?) video and I think he gave the number.

Quoted from jfh:

I’ll have to watch again. I remember seeing the playfields but not a production line.

Quoted from Damonator:

My guess is they were trying to get the saloon doors into the game before they went out - which required the door hardware & new programming from Lyman.
Or maybe just trying to further integrate the topper into the code.
Either way - much more difficult with Lyman’s passing.

Quoted from TheCnyPinGuy:

Don’t forget SE owners did NOT require a $1000 deposit so maybe it’s plausible
Only LE/SE+
He stated was in for a SE
Just sayin

Quoted from Pinless:$180k?! I’ll sell you a new one for $125k. I’d even throw a pin in the bed as a bonus.

Quoted from jfh:

Graphics cards, game rooms and delayed car deliveries.
Anyone got ideas on what off topic discussion we should have next?

Quoted from PaulCoff:

Link to this update…please. Thx

Quoted from NC_Pin:

I gotta admit... I thought the LE's would have shipped by now.

Quoted from jfh:

This seems to be a big thorn in your claw. If you can’t get your deposit back PM me and I’ll help. If it’ll get you to quit spreading misinformation I’ll refund you myself.

Quoted from jfh:

For those that are interested - we took it to PM. I’m not going to post them here but in a nutshell:
He can’t or won’t provide proof of his claims, appears to have something against PinballSTAR and/or CGC, is upset that he doesn’t know what’s going on (understandable) and apparently isn’t interested in a rational conversation; he just wants me to stop posting.

Quoted from jfh:Deleted post

Quoted from Ballderdash:

Lol.
PS: I wasn’t interested.

Quoted from jfh:

That doesn’t add anything that we haven’t known for some time.

Quoted from jfh:

It is not limited to LE owners. It is limited to one per owner of any model.

Quoted from sepins:

I'm lost in Josh's response.
So is He saying there is content that He uses in His machine that is part of Lyman upgrade?