Quoted from WizardsCastle:

In my experience...
JJP had slow service, but had problematic games due to the huge amount of stuff they put in their games. When I bought Dialed In however, and had my issues, Jack personally called me and went way above and beyond to get me sorted out. Best experience I've had. But the company may have since changed.
Spooky has really friendly and quick service, but their product is cheap and uninspired. I know loads of fans will disagree, but aside from there playfields (which are definitely durable) the build quality of the games themselves are the worst I've ever seen. My TNA and R&M all sound hollow and clunky when they're played, and they put barely anything into the games. It's as though they just grab a few random parts of the shelves at Pinball Life and quickly whip a game together.
CGC was the best of both quality and service. They offered really good (not great) service, and I feel like the games are made exceptionally well, and have lots in them. Really good value IMO. My MMr was rock solid, and I still have my AFMr and have had almost no issues.
No need to mention Stern. We all know they just pump these titles put, but I will say, the Elwin games are an exception. I have owned them all so far, 2 are still here bolted to the floor, and I'll likely buy every game he put out because I know they'll be fun, challenging, and creative.
Just my thoughts...

Quoted from pinballinreno:

Not even close.

Quoted from pinballinreno:

JJP

Quoted from hiker2099:

What would you think of this? Happy middle ground?
I know this is probably too late for production.... But what if the SE came with the normal bart topper and Yall make the same topper but with a bionic bart for the LE models? Not sure if this is doable?

Quoted from cooked71:

From what was said in the presentation and CgC’s posts on here, sounds like offering the topper afterwards has always been on the table. To me the wording in that screenshot that’s been posted means that the only the LE has topper included. Nowhere does it say the topper is exclusive to the LE. In fact the wording then goes on to say the topper is “included” with the LE.
You guys have just made the assumption it’s exclusive to the LE.

Quoted from arcademojo:

Fat chance. Does Stern include a topper on LE's NOPE!!! But they still sell out.

Quoted from beelzeboob:

The speculators can suck it. I buy a machine because I think it looks fun and I'm into the theme. In other words, I buy it for ME and to play in my home. Not once do I consider if it will retain its value if extra toppers are offered or different versions are made (JJP taught me not to care about this). I remember people taunting me about Stranger Things when the LE lost $2k right out of the gate. I didn't care then, and I still don't care now when it's selling for well over $10k. I'm in this hobby because of my love of the hobby...and hobbies cost money. It's the flippers and speculators that are ruining this hobby for the true pinball enthusiasts who are being priced out of machines and shut out of LEs they were hoping to buy for themselves.

Quoted from Doug_Duba:

Had CCr-LEs sold at a similar rate to MB and AFM, most people who cared would have gotten an LE and offering the topper would not even be considered. We wanted to get a feel for demand before deciding if we were going to sell the topper and indicated so at the launch. This was discussed earlier in this thread.
The CCr webpage provides details on the features of both the CCr-LE and CCr-SE. “LE Only” indicates the topper only applies to the CCr-LE listed on that page.
If you sincerely believe the “LE only” text on our webpage was written to be intentionally deceptive, then turn and run. Your dealer will refund your money. We are unfortunately in an industry where dealing with companies and people that lack integrity can be extremely costly. Maybe I shouldn’t have consulted with Robert Muller on our webpage copy, I’m also rethinking my decision to let him manage all of my retirement savings.
I fully understand a number of LE buyers do not want us to sell toppers. Considering doing so is not a new development.

Quoted from P1nhead:

Will it financially hurt CGC? Nope. I'll still be first in line on the next LE; and, even if potential or previous LE buyers drop out, someone will gladly take the spot.
When you do announce to sell them, I really hope you lock sales down to serial numbers and charge what the market will bear.

Quoted from zpinman370:

why leave shit tons on the table to please a few - obviously your an "i got me an LE guy"
CGC builds a great product, so yes, if a few LE buyers get pissed there are more lined up to take their place this run and next run for sure

Quoted from Tommy-dog:

LE adds a lot more than just a topper. You also get these things on a LE:
POWDER COATING LEGS/RAILS/LD BAR
BIGGER WARRANTY
INTERIOR ART BLADES
WOOD ARCH
TRAIN TRACKS
MINE CART
SHAKER MOTOR
LE SERIAL NUMBER

Quoted from seenev:

On the other side of this, when the pinball bubble inevitably bursts and every new LE isn't immediately gobbled up by buyers and flippers, and the new people in the hobby filter back out and you return to a pinball market made of repeat customers, the people who were frustrated that they couldn't get the best version of the game because of an arbitrary number will remember. The pinball market is brimming with active companies with regular new releases. There are plenty of alternative places to spend pinball dollars. Those of us who were in the market before the boom will be here after the boom.
It doesn't really matter what the next CGC game is. I know I won't be interested, because the two times I've tried buying a CGC game before have been incredibly frustrating, and never for a good reason. If you want to play the LE game, then best of luck. You'll get a lot of interest that way, but you lose those of us who don't care about numbers and just want the features. I'm not just talking about a topper but the entire package.
You're clearly going to upset some people no matter what you do at this point. Capping LEs, selling the topper individually, or increasing the number of LEs... There's no way around it. Some people will be unhappy. I don't understand this moral hard-line on keeping the number of LEs when it's clearly problematic. People are already flipping their spots for thousands of dollars. Is that better than giving everyone a chance to buy it? Price gouging people on day one because some people were lucky and some weren't? That's a line in the sand you can't cross? A sacred number on a plaque?
I guess this hobby has become corrupted by the desire to exclude people. Creating value by withholding something from eager customers just to make other customers feel special. I don't respect that. Not at all.

Quoted from Tallon:

No one except flippers and investors want to keep this exclusive, players and pinball fans just want the game. The SAME game no matter what CCr they play!

Quoted from metallik:

All this consternation and angst and I bet CGC gets less than a dozen cancellations.
I do hope y'all enjoy *playing* these games when they finally arrive, whichever model you wind up with.

Quoted from CosmoJoe:

There is nothing to understand. Anyone who ordered an LE to own, in their house, and presumably play, and feels upset that someone somewhere else has an SE with a topper is a rotten person.

Quoted from cooked71:

OMFG you LE buyers.
In Australia this means you got a $3000 topper (plus a bunch of very cool LE only extras) for literally doing nothing
LE price aud$16990
SE price aud$13990
SE+ will have to be aud$16990
So you got the $3000 topper plus the LE extras and the inherent LE flip margin ($5k??) for literally doing nothing but putting your name on a list and you’re all still whining.

Quoted from cooked71:

You are kidding right?

Quoted from metallik:

I bought a JJP ECLE. I know all about bad faith hahaha. I got over it and realized all this artificial scarcity is just a way manufacturers can get more money. I couldn't care less about LE bling but gatekeeping gameplay features behind LE models is annoying. Bring on the toppers!

Quoted from cooked71:

You’re right, I meant to say the topper now has a value of $3k.
So you’re still getting:
“Gunslinger Wooded Lower Arch, Mine Cart, Train Tracks, Custom Art Blades, Gun Metal Grey Trim, LE Medallion, Shaker Motor and Extended Warranty.”
Which is way more than a Stern LE gets imo.
Plus the flip value. You don’t think it’s Aud$5000?
The LE is still a bargain. Was clearly under priced.
In any case - just cancel.
But I’m with you on the way the whole thing was handled. It’s a huge mess.

Quoted from CoolCatPinball:

Then get a refund for fucks sake

Quoted from t2000tjt:

What exactly "MUCH less" are they providing you? You could certainly pay the same amount for the SE+ and give me your LE for the same price.
They aren't providing you anything less... they are providing other an opportunity to pay more (the same amount you paid, to get less than what you got)

Quoted from CoolCatPinball:

Well, you aren't gonna get the deal you agreed to. Period. So, you are left with 2 choices. Get a refund, or continue bitching incessantly.
For fucks sake

Quoted from flynnibus:

Yes it does
When you return a broke product at target do you demand something more in return too???
If you don’t like the sale - you can walk away scott free. That’s the restitution any court would offer too. You literally have no other harm done.

Quoted from Linolium:

I’m going to CNC my own wood arch cover and get other similar mods as they are sold for art blades, tracks, etc

Quoted from MrSanRamon:

Why?
Since the LE and the SE+ are essentially the same price and the LE has more stuff (and is more limited), this should keep the LE price high.
If the SE+ was a lot cheaper than the LE, then the LE owners might see the LE prices in the future not being as high.
Robert

Quoted from wackenhut:

The real people who are upset are the LE flippers. You can still get your money back and I am sure people would take your spot.
Just enjoy the game.

Quoted from wackenhut:

What about all the people that wanted an LE and could not get one because people bought them to flip? They have to suffer and pay over retail?
I think this is a smart move. Maybe the rollout should have been at the same time, but I do not think it would change the LE Market Buyers.

Quoted from PtownPin:

CGC should just move to the JJP model....make a shit ton of LE's even thought their not LE's, and have a CE version of the game (500 units) or simply make a base model and let people buy whatever upgrades they want i.e. topper, game blades, trim, toys, etc.....

Quoted from aeneas:

That an SE+ version exists now does not change anything to the LE run.

Quoted from Doug_Duba:

Special thanks to those of you that have had our back through all of this. Your support helped me get through this.
On Pinside there have been several orders of magnitude more discussion over what we got wrong than what we got right. In contrast, the tone at Midwest Gaming Classic this weekend couldn’t have been more positive.
There has been far more concern over who can have the topper than appreciation of what I feel is our most innovative topper yet. Throughout it’s development, I felt it was borderline ridiculous to put so much effort into a topper.
At launch we stated we were considering selling the topper. It was discussed here early on.
For those of you discounting the value of the additional LE features (LE lower arch, LE medallion, mine cart, train tracks, art blades, shaker motor and longer warranty), we will learn how the free market values those features in the near future.
I’m proud of the work our team did on this project. Lyman is the final piece of the puzzle that will make this game all it can be.
Our pinball division’s mission is to deliver the highest quality games in the industry while providing the best value to people that love pinball.
We are focused on customers that love pinball not scalpers or those concerned with making a quick buck. I know there are many disappointed customers that fall into this first camp but suspect those weren’t the loudest voices.
We have been remaking great Williams/Bally pinball machines to provide people access to games which had become unaffordable to many.
Manufacturers are testing the waters with games retailing for over $25k and the marketplace has responded by saying more please. In time, this trend will exclude the majority of buyers from the coolest features on future games.
We build a large number of LEs because we want everyone to have access to the features we have developed. The value of our LEs is derived from their additional features more than rarity.
The goal from the beginning has been to provide people access to the best pinball machines. This decision was in line with that goal.
Sales greatly exceeded expectations. Did we price the games too low? I believe we priced the games fairly in a market where many pinball machines have become overpriced.
Did we make mistakes? Absolutely, I can own them and learn from them. We will do better next time. I apologize for the drama this has created.
It’s time for me to return my focus to building games.

Quoted from P1nhead:

Would the value of the pin appreciate significantly if only LE models could have the topper, maybe for the first year.

Quoted from explosiveegg:

I've been waiting for some of the older CGC remake games to drop in price for a little while now and those prices keep going up.
That is not to say they won't eventually drop in value, but you'll need a lot more patients than I have for that. I've also seen a lot of these games on location with perfect playfields. It would take real neglect to get these games to the point where the playfield needs replacing, I don't think you'll see many of those either.

Quoted from Doug_Duba:

Screen printing and silk screening are just different names for the same thing. In this process each layer of ink is put down separately by pushing ink through a silkscreen onto whatever media you are printing on.
Typically screen printing utilizes 4-color process (aka CMYK) which utilizes cyan, magenta, yellow and black ink to create the appearance of a limited gamut of colors. Playfields typically screened CMYK utilize six silk screens (white, C, M, Y, K and opaque black). Solvent based inks are used when silk screening playfields.
We have screen printed all remakes utilizing spot colors as was done for the original games. Utilizing spot colors provides a much wider color gamut. Instead of colors being represented by a mix of C, M, Y or K dots, the color you are seeing is achieved by mixing each ink to the specific color desired. Another upside to spot colors is a richer appearance as the solid colors tend to fully flood an area instead of appearing as small dots. The downside of spot colors is efficiency. Our previous remakes have required 12 to 14 screening operations. Each operation needs to be near perfectly registered to the previous layer of silk screen ink.
The other downside of silk screening playfields is the skill level required.
I believe the other playfield manufacturers are digitally printing playfields and sometimes digitally printing and then adding a single screen printed spot color. Digital printing equipment puts down all four colors (CMYK) in a single pass. Digital inks are UV cured which mean they dry instantly. Most digital printers are 4-color process. Registration between the colors is never an issue and loading a digital press requires almost no skill.
I believe all playfield manufacturers are using urethane clear coats. Some are using automotive grade urethanes which are widely available and less expensive. We still use the same supplier and material as Williams/Bally did. This product was initially developed to coat the heads of wooden golf clubs by a chemist named Dale Bodiker. He found a way to formulate a urethane hard coat that would remain flexible over time. We have looked for another product with similar characteristics but have been unable to find anything that remains flexible.
Urethane is extremely sensitive to certain contaminants. UV inks are typically produced by the manufacturer of the printing equipment. I have looked into digital printing equipment but have been unable to find digital inks specifically formulated for use with urethane. That doesn’t mean they don’t exist. We purchase solvent based inks mixed to our specifications which include purity level requirements.

Quoted from CoolCatPinball:

I feel they're a waste of time and money on modern machines.

Quoted from PtownPin:

I tend to agree, however I recently purchased a HUO TSPP that the previous owner installed a play field protector. Its actually really nice (I was surprised), and u can't really tell its even there....not sure why he installed one, but the play field is perfect

Quoted from explosiveegg:

I like to view pinball games as a form of interactive art, so unlicensed themes with a great world are king.

Quoted from explosiveegg:

I also think Williams games of the 90s are the best games ever made, and I somehow don't own one yet.

Quoted from jfh:

CGC certainly dropped the ball with the Expo reveal - for whatever reason they simply weren’t prepared. And they compounded that by not proof reading the initial webpage that had some cut and paste errors. But CGC was consistent from the beginning about the LE count, the topper, and then the plans for the SE+.
It’s not that some people were harsh - they were misinformed or interpreted things they way they wanted because they didn’t pay attention, don’t excel at reading comprehension or simply got caught up in FOMO.
Those that were actually harsh or outraged were more likely interested in flipping LEs rather than owning one. And then there are those that don’t bother doing the math to figure out most aren’t going to have LEs by February.
Where CGC seems to have failed so far is underestimating interest in Cactus Canyon supercharged by the dual surprises of the topper and future Lyman code and then essentially going radio silent when it became apparent SEs weren’t going to ship in November.

Quoted from pcprogrammer:

I'm buying it! It's going to be awesome! I don't care what anyone says. Love the theme and that's the most important part to me. I've had games that had great layouts, flow and code but I didn't like the theme so I got rid of it. From what I've seen, the layout looks pretty great to me, and we know the code will be amazing with Lyman.

Quoted from raisindot:

Well, after being pinless for years I finally decided to drain the savings and get a CCR SE+ topper. I'm not a good player so I don't worry about having endless numbers of modes to play since my games don't last long at all. I fell in love with the game playing the Pinball Arcade version and loved it even more the few times I was able to play one of the originals that had been updated with the additional homemade code. I honestly don't care whether totally redone code will be ready when I get mine. I honestly don't know if I'll use the topper initially because where I'm putting my in the ceiling will be too low for it (hope the cord is long enough to let me set it on a table next to the pin). And given the pinflation everwhere, I do have a reasonable expectation that when I sell it I won't lose money on it.
Frankly, I think that busbodies who are constantly dissing a game they haven't played should go elsewhere. I've disliked nearly every Stern game since Star Trek, but I don't go into different game forums ragging about how I don't like them. That's what the ratings thing is for.

Quoted from explosiveegg:

Depending on where you keep your machine. The keyless locks you can buy for a few bucks are amazing. I have them on all my machines.

Quoted from Tallon:

So, let me get this straight, someone calls you out on a false premise and your all offended. Then jumps another conversation like a little kid needing attention and yet again gets offended.
Ok let me make an offer. I can be over to Lloyds when he opens tomorrow and we can have an adult conversation over some pinball and play some CGC games discussing the new CCr.
So how keyboard commando are you now?
On a side note, going to Texas pinball if the guy from Texas wants to do the same
Super excited to see if the game of the code is gonna hit first.

Quoted from playtwowin:

Are you one of the individuals who are patiently awaiting their game? Do you have a deposit down on a CCR? People were only asking for a simple update since the previous timetable they have gave has came and gone. This is not too much to ask. Communication is very important. There is no excuse for not informing your customers of delays.

Quoted from RikV:

Too cool for school, huh? Letting’ everyone know how chill you are, nice.

Quoted from pch3727:

Look at me everybody I’m up on my high horse! Yeeeehaw!
Lock is lit but if you ask for an update some old timers will tell ya how the Wild West really works. Don’t ask questions just take it in the saddle partna!

Quoted from alveolus:

So, is David Thiel doing new music for CCr?