Dealers were apparently told that their initial allocations of the SE+ would be the same as for LE, implying a limit of 1250.

I wish Doug would come back and update us.

Seems like that could be interpreted more than one way.

Why does this discussion make me want to bring up the TOPPERS again.... LOL.

Noooooooooooooooooooooooo!

If I was Doug, I'd be pretty annoyed with this whole reveal that it's probably just refreshing to ignore the internet for a while and focus on what is actually important such as getting the project out the door.

I personally feel like the pinball community has been extra harsh to CGC throughout this.

As an example, they straight up said, we're considering making more toppers for non-LE owners before even putting the LE on sale for pre-order, but then people were pissed with them for following through with that.

People are now doing basically the same thing with the SE+, from my understanding CGC has never said it's limited, but everywhere I look people are acting like they did.

Anything they say is twisted and thrown back at their faces.

That is not to say they haven't made missteps throughout the process, but they're getting more backlash for ambiguous terminology than companies like Stern, who in my opinion, have done some really evil things recently.

That being said, I too would love to hear more about the progress from Doug.

Can’t wait for my SE regular. I would have liked an LE but this will be just as fun. My AFMr SE is fun as is.

CGC certainly dropped the ball with the Expo reveal - for whatever reason they simply weren’t prepared. And they compounded that by not proof reading the initial webpage that had some cut and paste errors. But CGC was consistent from the beginning about the LE count, the topper, and then the plans for the SE+.

It’s not that some people were harsh - they were misinformed or interpreted things they way they wanted because they didn’t pay attention, don’t excel at reading comprehension or simply got caught up in FOMO.

Those that were actually harsh or outraged were more likely interested in flipping LEs rather than owning one. And then there are those that don’t bother doing the math to figure out most aren’t going to have LEs by February.

Where CGC seems to have failed so far is underestimating interest in Cactus Canyon supercharged by the dual surprises of the topper and future Lyman code and then essentially going radio silent when it became apparent SEs weren’t going to ship in November.

Put a shaker motor in it & it’s virtually identical gameplay other than the Evil Topper

Yeah, for me when I bought my first NIB CGC remake over a year ago, I had the option to buy any of the 3 trim levels. I was mainly interested in the classic or the SE. I loved the old school look of the classic, but the XL display, upgraded sound and extra lighting were to cool not to get!
I think the SE trim is amazing.
I also add shakers and mirror blades to all.

Not sure the se+ numbers really matter? Highly doubt they sell another 1250 anytime soon ....if ever.

It would be interesting to see in a year if so if there are more SE or SE+ games sold.

They did announce another MM run for 2023, so yeah it's possible. Might be several years, but might be possible.

My God, man. You really want to start the debate all over again? Wtf?

I would tell the complainers in this thread to grow up, but then again we are all just hanging out on a pinball forum as adults

I agree, especially with the the debate on how the reveal was handled. Let’s just move on no matter what your view of the reveal may be. Hopefully, pins will start shipping soon and things appear to point towards CCR being a fantastic pin.

Nothing new to see here ....moving along !

I’m not the one that brought it up. I was responding to the post that did.

What I really want is to see pictures of the game on the line, see owners getting final payment requests and shipping notices, pictures of delivery and accounts of game unboxing, set up and those first plays. While I’m waiting for my game I want to see as much detail on the game as I can and the joy it brings to others.

we all do .... stirring the pot isn't going make it happen faster ...
LE ordered doubt I will see it before June ... nothing we can do with supply shortage and shipping issues

Similar backlash as Stern. No one is playing favorites when mistakes are made. Twisting was done as vague terminology with no direct answers (SFGE).

You are generalizing the reactions to how this project was handled. Lot of money for these toys now. Hardcore hobbyists on Pinside, so critics abound. Reactions are within what I'd expect.

I think you misread my post.

And while your comment about supply chain issues is true it’s not relevant to the point.

Looking to add mirror blades to my SE.
Anyone have experience with these?
I got my other mirror blades from my CGC dealer. I hoped these are similar quality.
Thanks!
Richard

63CBA0D8-DCB5-400C-967C-5F75F2CE5CF0 (resized).jpeg

I like Pinball Decals , has some great items just always a little pricey.

They are very nice mirror blades. I would suggest using some different double sided tape than what is supplied with the blades. I have found its pretty weak and will lose its grip over time.

I used some Gorilla double sided tape that worked much better.

Quality mirror blades. I've installed at least six pairs for bally/williams machines including one black mirror and two for Stern machines.Target decals are also high quality.

You make a good argument that this "pretty avg game on its own" has a good chance of being the best of the remakes.

MM, AFM. and MB are all at their core just the same old 'shoot each shot 3 times' rulesets. Doesn't seem to hurt their popularity.

Lyman's involvement is a literal game changer, signifying that this remake has much more upside to provide a new game experience than any previous remake.

I had played MM to death before the remake announcement and had no interest in it.

I felt AFMr offered cooler bling upgrades from the original compared to MM. I find it's a better experience playing it than the original.

MB was kinda boring before, and I didn't see much difference with the remake when I played it.

CCr's standing in pinball is yet unknown, but it's definitely got the most potential to be a better, newer, modernized improved version than any of its remake predecessors.

The new software is the key variable.

You hit the nail on the head, especially on these two points.

I am certain many ordered Cactus Canyon in part because of the anticipation of what Lyman could do with the code. Just look at his last two games. Both Batman and Elvira were relative duds out of the gate - box of lights, pretty but shallow, etc. A few hundred LEs sold quickly to theme super fans but Premiums just lingered until Lyman started over with Batman and did wonders with Elvira. And then the popularity of those games soared.

I was leaning to “get one sometime” but ordered day one because of Lyman. At the time we had no idea if this was going to be a completely new game or an extension of the existing code. And when Josh told us what Lyman was doing with the code - adding all the leaves to the Cactus Canyon tree - that sounded even better than a new story because, at minimum, it’s going to use sounds and callouts long hidden in the original ROMs along with new features to expand the funny western world under glass that is Cactus Canyon.

Even if people don’t get the optional code the remake has completed code, the first interactive topper, and, for many, the first western themed pinball they have ever played which may be a refreshing change to those burned out by the seemingly endless stream of music and superhero pins. It’s a gamble because it’s far less well known/played than the other three, but it’s a pretty safe bet that it will be far more than a “just shoot each shot three times” game. And the drop targets are awesome!

I’ve had Medieval Madness since 1997 and never gotten tired of that “pretty average WPC game”. I’m somewhat of a purist because I prefer the originals but in this case the remake is poised to be so much more. It’s going to be a sleeper hit.

Here's the thing... we have decades of history proving this game does not stand on the same footing as those other games... just like MB does not stand on the same footing as AFM. So you can can doubt the reasons - but you can't question the decades of outcomes. I guess there are a lot of people in this hobby who haven't had access to CC over their time.. but many people have, and the results are pretty consistent.

You mention MB being boring.. CC suffers in many of the same ways. Lacking a real emotional payoff that AFM and MM deliver upon success (AFM better than MM). In CC you try to grind through everything but never really get that entertainment payoff. It really lacks the punch of its peers, even MB and SS.

CC is always appealing when new because you want that discovery of the unicorn.. you want to see whats here. But after you've drove it around the block a few times... it fades on you. The game really doesn't have a great hook, especially compared to it's brothers.

It will be curious to see where Lyman takes it and how they get that hook.. and not just become an 'expansion'

To be fair didn't Lyman code the "3 times per shot" into MM and AFM?

Sure you can. You are comparing apples and oranges by focusing on the original Cactus Canyon code.

Yes, the original code doesn’t stand up over time because it is repetitive and unfinished. It’s why as much as I like the game I haven’t bought one. But other then for the novelty and historical accuracy no one is going to play the original code on a regular basis. They will play the default CGC code or the Lyman code.

We obviously don’t have any experience with either of those new code bases. You may be right that it won’t match up but making a decision solely based on what the original code has shown over twenty years doesn’t make sense.

All I hear is that Cactus Canyon is going to be awful, so please, please cancel your LE spots ASAP.

Really. I’m invoiced for an SE. but will cancel for an LE spot. No I don’t want to pay $14000 for it.

No - you are making responses to arguments I'm not making. I was talking about the original game - to which you keep saying was not liked because of it's unfinished nature. No, that's not why it has the reputation it has. The unfinished code really didn't hinder the game's design or play. It was just a ho-hum game period. I'm not judging what the yet-to-be-seen game is.. I was talking about the game we've known for almost 25 years.

Because the original game just isn't that great - and sorry, neither is the CGC 'finished' code. It's more polished and rounded out - but at it's core it's still the same boring CC. It's a nice game - but not really a standout. It's a solid B- game.

I do - played it at expo and watch my friend complete the game on his second game playing. Saw all the new modes, topper, etc. It looks great, it has great additions compared to the original, but it's still CC.

Which is why I said
"The big question is what will Lyman do with it. Because it's a pretty avg WPC game on it's own. The CGC additions are welcome and the new dots look great.. but at it's core it was still the 'just another shoot each shot 3 times' late WPC game"

There's a name for those that continue to make the same point over and over again.

download (resized).jpeg

My response was directly on point to your assertion that the decades of experience that Cactus Canyon doesn’t stand on the same footing. And that IS primarily because of code.

Look at what Continued did for the game. You didn’t hear “it’s not fun to shoot” or “it’s three shots rinse and repeat” - you heard “I’d buy a remake if it had code like this”. The original is a fun game to shoot. It just wasn’t fun for long because of the code.

I get it. You think the original game is nothing special. I don’t totally disagree. And yes, a (not the) big question is what Lyman will do with it. But it’s a pretty safe bet that it will be something special well beyond “shoot each shot 3 times”.

It doesn’t float your boat. Understandable. But your in the wrong thread to try and convince people that the remake is going to be just average because you think the original is.

Thanks guys!
I’ll order a set!

Again, at its core, MM, AFM and MB are exactly the same, still the 'just another shoot each shot 3 times' late WPC game'.

But CCr is preparing to go beyond that core. This remake will be better than at its original inception.

We still need to see how the new code pans out, but all of your complaints about CC are completely irrelevant and some are even nonsensical (ie, the game's reputation.)

IT DOES - people want to be revisionist about what the original was or pretend most didn't know it. All revisionist talk. The game is a well understood and known thing - unfinished aspects don't hinder those conclusions. Just like the new code hasn't dramatically altered the game experience - because the old 'holes' just weren't that big of a deal!

CCC was a fresh take and brought new things like color - but it too isn't a knock-out game. Both CC and CCC draw in people because of the legend and people want to get the first hand experience. But you see by the end of the night, people are playing the other games not them. CCC brought a lot more to explore. We have friends with CC in their private collections and I watch them at parties... once the novelty wears off... so does the draw. Pattern plays itself out over and over. Neat - but does it keep drawing you in? newp.

I think it has a steep hill to climb. The game looks sharp and of course the topper will give people something to pursue in the game.. but honestly after a few plays, I felt no interest in waiting to play it again.

Lyman is the master of creating interest out of thin air.. so we shall see. But it does sound like from Josh's interview they really are sticking to the 90s WMS kind of game design.. so I don't know if it will be as radical departure as some may hope.

Yet each is significantly different in player draw. The 'shoot 3 times' is just an example of the 'too much borrowed' aspect and that alone is not why the game is not as appreciated as its peers. We know the total packages differ even though they all share that same rules mechanic - but it does still group these games together. I'd probably rank it lower than Scared Stiff in its siblings. AFM > MM > MB > SS > CC

It's not completely irrelevant when they've already said they are building upon the existing game's concepts - not starting over with a blank slate.

The game's reputation is relevant because some people seem to be in some bizzaro world where CC was some diamond in the rough that was held back by its unfinished code. No - it wasn't. It was held back by its lack of success in creating that entertainment magic. It's a game that has held its status because of what happened to the project - not because it's some killer game.

CCr is already a much better package because of the fantastic work CGC did on the physical aspects of the game. The molds, the aprons, the lighting package, the well done display, and of course this new topper angle. But playing it is still the same old CC at this point which is pretty average. Which is why the Lyman code needs to be a killer app.

You certainly seem to think so. I’ve followed Cactus Canyon since it was on the production line. I know exactly what it was.

Ok. Then why are you here?

I haven’t heard anyone interested in Cactus Canyon Remake that expects a radical departure. The genius of Lyman is likely to show us that you can expand on the 90’s game play and make it better without having to rewrite the entire game.

Any lack of success creating “entertainment magic” would be directly related to the original code. The game’s reputation is tied to code that people aren’t going to be playing. That reputation is definitely irrelevant.

All I know is if the updated code is “shoot each shot 4 times” I will be a slightly disappointed.

Could all this just be your personal opinion? I mean, what are your creds in game judgement and what the masses want? I'm guessing many people have played the original or CCC and like it enough to want to buy nib.

Does anyone in here know where you can get the Bally stickers to go under the DMD’s of the CGC games?

That is actually on the LCD. Lower part. Manual has instructions to load your own graphic there.

LTG : )

If you mean like on this AFMR

LTG : )

afmr (resized).jpg

My MMr and MBr say “Chicago gaming company” there. Can it be switched to “Williams”?

MBR manual page 1-12 has the instructions.

https://www.chicago-gaming.com/manuals/MB_Manual_Rev_1.pdf

LTG : )

AFMR manual page 1-12 has the instructions too. The MMR manual doesn't have it, you can change MMR too.

LTG : )