(Topic ID: 298998)

CCr ~ Cactus Canyon Remake Hype Thread ~ Lock is lit.. and so am I!

By Concretehardt

2 years ago


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“Are you in on CCr”

  • Yes I’m in on a classic edition 52 votes
    8%
  • Yes I’m in on a special edition 117 votes
    18%
  • Yes I’m in on a limited edition 308 votes
    46%
  • Not interested.. I’m out on this one! 187 votes
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#3751 2 years ago

Another option no one has mentioned... if you feel there was switch baiting shenanigan's from this company, don't buy any new games at all. Wait for a beat up one to hit the market and restore it at a fraction of the cost. That's my plan for the Stern and JJP games. Waiting for all of the bad quality torn up playfields to hit the market and restore them to diamond plate glory at a fraction! I'm a very patient guy, no problem waiting here. But I am extremely happy with my purchase with Alien from PB, personally- the best playfield on the market! What a beauty. Enjoy, cheers!

#3752 2 years ago
Quoted from jfh:

925 were planned and that’s why that number was on the plaques when those parts were ordered. 903 were actually produced because the line switched over early to RFM (presumably because distributors had enough unsold inventory). If you got one late it’s possible Robinson got their plaques and put them in the box. I would have to find my notes from 1999 to confirm but believe the original plan was that they were to be attached at the factory.
I still kick myself for not buying CC on close out for $1700 (maybe $1900, can’t remember). My dealer at the time said they didn’t have any plaques, but for that close out price I didn’t really care. And the reason I didn’t buy CC then was because I thought “who is going to want this game when I’m done with it? Everyone will want Pinball 2000 instead”. Silly me.

Revenge from Mars was already on the floor when we bought our CC and we almost changed our minds and got that instead! Sadly however we did buy Cactus and sold it months later to fund something else. We got our $3600 back and thought at the time how cool we didn’t lose any money! It didn’t take long for it to go sky high and has been a sore spot for me ever since and is why we want the remake so bad to put that mistake to bed.

Something you mentioned about the close out prices is funny because so many in the hobby now have no idea how that used to go with games actually not selling! They couldn’t even give Cirqus Voltaire’s away and closed them out for $1699 along with so many others. No distributor lists or FOMO. Used mid level games like Fish Tales going for $800 and Medieval Madness being the top game at $3500. Sure miss those days

#3753 2 years ago
Quoted from Lamberger:

Another option no one has mentioned... if you feel there was switch baiting shenanigan's from this company, don't buy any new games at all. Wait for a beat up one to hit the market and restore it at a fraction of the cost. That's my plan for the Stern and JJP games. Waiting for all of the bad quality torn up playfields to hit the market and restore them to diamond plate glory at a fraction! I'm a very patient guy, no problem waiting here. But I am extremely happy with my purchase with Alien from PB, personally- the best playfield on the market! What a beauty. Enjoy, cheers!

I've been waiting for some of the older CGC remake games to drop in price for a little while now and those prices keep going up.

That is not to say they won't eventually drop in value, but you'll need a lot more patients than I have for that. I've also seen a lot of these games on location with perfect playfields. It would take real neglect to get these games to the point where the playfield needs replacing, I don't think you'll see many of those either.

#3754 2 years ago
Quoted from explosiveegg:

I've been waiting for some of the older CGC remake games to drop in price for a little while now and those prices keep going up.
That is not to say they won't eventually drop in value, but you'll need a lot more patients than I have for that. I've also seen a lot of these games on location with perfect playfields. It would take real neglect to get these games to the point where the playfield needs replacing, I don't think you'll see many of those either.

The originals will probably drop huge if they can't have the new code.

#3755 2 years ago
Quoted from explosiveegg:

I've been waiting for some of the older CGC remake games to drop in price for a little while now and those prices keep going up.
That is not to say they won't eventually drop in value, but you'll need a lot more patients than I have for that. I've also seen a lot of these games on location with perfect playfields. It would take real neglect to get these games to the point where the playfield needs replacing, I don't think you'll see many of those either.

My MMRLE is peeling up and that's HUO. time will tell.

#3756 2 years ago
Quoted from Lamberger:

My MMRLE is peeling up and that's HUO. time will tell.

The playfield is peeling up? Or the cabinet? I've heard of cabinet issues on some of their first games, but I would expect that they've figured that out with their later games.

#3757 2 years ago
Quoted from explosiveegg:

The playfield is peeling up? Or the cabinet? I've heard of cabinet issues on some of their first games, but I would expect that they've figured that out with their later games.

Playfield.. I haven't heard that or looked at the cab. Thanks for the heads up!

#3758 2 years ago
Quoted from Lamberger:

Playfield.. I haven't heard that or looked at the cab. Thanks for the heads up!

I thought the playfield was screen printed? How does that peel up?

#3759 2 years ago
Quoted from Zukidog:

I thought the playfield was screen printed? How does that peel up?

I believe CGC does not screen print. They silkscreen as was traditionally done. This probably explains why their pfs seem more resilient to chipping and loss of artwork when compared to other manufacturers including CPR.

However there were some early LEs that were built by Stern under contract. Maybe those pf are printed?

#3760 2 years ago
Quoted from steve-o:

My guess is that the # was inspired from a Dolly Parton song..

Well done my friend. Well done.

#3761 2 years ago
Quoted from Hoteldrummer:

They couldn’t even give Cirqus Voltaire’s away and closed them out for $1699 along with so many others. No distributor lists or FOMO. Used mid level games like Fish Tales going for $800 and Medieval Madness being the top game at $3500. Sure miss those days

Yep, I bought my (well used) WH20 for $900 near the end of 1996 - worth a lot more now.

Quoted from explosiveegg:

I've been waiting for some of the older CGC remake games to drop in price for a little while now and those prices keep going up.

Yep, I bought my (barely played) MBr-SE for $6800 at the start of 2020 - worth a lot more now.

#3762 2 years ago
Quoted from MrMikeman:

I believe CGC does not screen print. They silkscreen as was traditionally done. This probably explains why their pfs seem more resilient to chipping and loss of artwork when compared to other manufacturers including CPR.
However there were some early LEs that were built by Stern under contract. Maybe those pf are printed?

Screen printing and silk screening are two in the same. Perhaps the "peeling" is in regards to the clear coat buckling? No biggie, I was just curious.

#3763 2 years ago
Quoted from Tranquilize:

The originals will probably drop huge if they can't have the new code.

There may be ways to extract the updated code from the CGC version and burn to eprom to run in an original machine. It all depends on what type of DRM there is, and how the "new" code is run. If it's purely updating the old code and running it via emulation as CGC has been doing, then theoretically it could work in an original game.

-1
#3764 2 years ago
Quoted from Zukidog:

Screen printing and silk screening are two in the same.

ummmm... not quite. Silkscreening is done in layers with dithering. I visited Stern back in the day when they were still silkscreening their own playfields and also CPR when they first started. I've seen it first hand. It takes many layers to get all the colors down and each layer has to dry before the next one is applied. Long and tedious.

From what I was told screen printing is basically an inkjet printer. I think it's 1 pass and done. Screen printing is cheaper and faster which is why most manufacturers changed to that method. Oh and you get nicer photo realistic artwork. Only problem is lifts with the clearcoat.

From a non-expert point of view is would seem like there's an adherence issue with the ink with the newer process. It sticks to the clearcoat much more than it sticks to the playfield.

#3765 2 years ago
Quoted from MrMikeman:

ummmm... not quite. Look it up. Screen printing is much cheaper btw which is why most manufacturers changed to that method. Oh and you get nicer photo realistic artwork.
The chipping issues with CPR only started after they switched from silkscreening to screen printing.
From a non-expert point of view is would seem like there's an adherence issue with the ink with the newer process. It sticks to the clearcoat much more than it sticks to the playfield.

Only difference is the fiber choice in the mesh. Otherwise, it's the same. Perhaps your thinking direct print like what spooky does?

Quoted from snakesnsparklers:

There may be ways to extract the updated code from the CGC version and burn to eprom to run in an original machine. It all depends on what type of DRM there is, and how the "new" code is run. If it's purely updating the old code and running it via emulation as CGC has been doing, then theoretically it could work in an original game.

This is pretty cool to hear and exciting for anyone that doesn't run Continued currently.

#3766 2 years ago
Quoted from snakesnsparklers:

There may be ways to extract the updated code from the CGC version and burn to eprom to run in an original machine. It all depends on what type of DRM there is, and how the "new" code is run. If it's purely updating the old code and running it via emulation as CGC has been doing, then theoretically it could work in an original game.

If you look at the streamed video (guy changing the settings at the start) from yesterday it doesn't look like it's an emulation layer like the previous games. It's not the WPC menu yet they are changing what used to be regular WPC settings. Seems like a new OS altogether.

Also the new dots were not converted to "classic" DMD so you'd have nothing on the display for a bunch of things.

#3767 2 years ago
Quoted from Zukidog:

Only difference is the fiber choice in the mesh. Otherwise, it's the same. Perhaps your thinking direct print like what spooky does?

Yeah I was thinking direct print.

#3768 2 years ago
Quoted from snakesnsparklers:

There may be ways to extract the updated code from the CGC version and burn to eprom to run in an original machine. It all depends on what type of DRM there is, and how the "new" code is run. If it's purely updating the old code and running it via emulation as CGC has been doing, then theoretically it could work in an original game.

I thought the prevailing rumor was that CCr was going to have different hardware? I’d also heard they were no longer emulating on CCr - in order to extend/enhance, the original code was ported to the new system. If this is the case, it would not work on the original CCs.

All that aside, CGC has no vested interest in enhancing original CCs (quite the opposite in fact). Unfortunately, original CCs are going to take a bigger value loss than MM/MB/AFM because of the code enhancement.

If I were looking into my crystal ball - it would be a pretty wise (yet controversial) financial move for CGC to port MMr to the new hardware and get Lyman to enhance the MM code (that would not be backwards compatible with MM and require a costly board upgrade for first gen MMRs).

#3769 2 years ago
Quoted from Damonator:

If I were looking into my crystal ball - it would be a pretty wise (yet controversial) financial move for CGC to port MMr to the new hardware and get Lyman to enhance the MM code (that would not be backwards compatible with MM and require a costly board upgrade for first gen MMRs).

They could do that for all the remakes (SE & LE). Create a 2.0 enhanced game. Cost of the upgrade is the software + new CGC main board. They could probably sell it for $1000-$1500 if it really enhances the game a lot.

Obviously those with classic editions or MMrLE would need to get the XL display/speaker panel too.

#3770 2 years ago
Quoted from MrMikeman:

They could do that for all the remakes. Create a 2.0 enhanced game. Cost of the upgrade is the software + new CGC main board. They could probably sell it for $1000-$1500 if it really enhances the game a lot.

Who knows if that is not their plan ?
They need to keep Lyman busy when CCL is done

Anyway it's not going to be possible to extract a rom to put in an original CC.
Maybe the assets can be extracted and put into CCC v2..

#3771 2 years ago
Quoted from MrMikeman:

They could do that for all the remakes. Create a 2.0 enhanced game. Cost of the upgrade is the software + new CGC main board. They could probably sell it for $1000-$1500 if it really enhances the game a lot.

As much as I would love some software enhancements to MBr, I really doubt that this would happen. CGC is going to be very busy doing their next machines (remakes and original). Going "backwards" to re-do software for machines that they have already sold would be a big waste of time and effort.

CC is getting new code because it will help to sell the machines that are coming off the line now.

#3772 2 years ago
Quoted from mbeardsley:

As much as I would love some software enhancements to MBr.

MB would definitely be the remake to benefit the most from enhanced code with a bit more depth.

#3773 2 years ago
Quoted from aeneas:

Who knows if that is not their plan ?
They need to keep Lyman busy when CCL is done
//<![CDATA[
window.__mirage2 = {petok:"41f78c5f0b8250f741cdce327100705f70da3094-1636568815-1800"};
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Anyway it's not going to be possible to extract a rom to put in an original CC.
Maybe the assets can be extracted and put into CCC v2..

My guess is Lyman and Josh are also working on a brand new game…

#3774 2 years ago

There is way too much to read here. Can someone please tell me how I will be able to buy a mirrored backglass? Do I have to get on a list? Can I buy one now? Thanks!

#3775 2 years ago
Quoted from Lhyrgoif:

This thread is a shitshow, people still arguing about toppergate, pin value and pineapples. I'll come back when the game is released and actual gameplay is being discussed here.
I'll let the saloon doors hit me on the way out too.

TAKE YOUR FRUIT WITH YOU! (throws a pineapple at his head).

#3776 2 years ago
Quoted from Hoteldrummer:

so many in the hobby now have no idea how that used to go with games actually not selling! They couldn’t even give Cirqus Voltaire’s away and closed them out for $1699 along with so many others. No distributor lists or FOMO. Used mid level games like Fish Tales going for $800 and Medieval Madness being the top game at $3500. Sure miss those days

True. And it was still difficult for non-operators to buy new games.

CV? Yup. Couldn’t give them away. When I was doing the CV web site for Williams my wife told me to not even think about buying the game so never even considered it, even at close out. Kind of surprised it’s so popular in the remake polls.

#3777 2 years ago

The CV home rom helped a lot with the games popularity.

#3778 2 years ago
Quoted from Hoteldrummer:

They couldn’t even give Cirqus Voltaire’s away and closed them out for $1699 along with so many others.

I picked one up for $1899 and was bummed when the next month it dropped to $1699. Wish I bought a half dozen.

#3779 2 years ago
Quoted from MrMikeman:

Let me dumb this down for you. Most pinball manufacturers are not multi billion dollar corporations.
Getting an influx of cash at the start of the production helps them stay afloat. Right now there is no easier way to get a bunch of quick deposits than to have a limited version that buyers have to get now or miss out.

CGC isn't taking the deposits to pay the bills.. and they've likely sunk WAY more money then that into the runup of production.. nevermind the overhead of development for the last 2+ years.

They don't need those LE deposits for cash flow - They want guaranteed sales.

#3780 2 years ago
Quoted from Hoteldrummer:

My plate was also packed in the box and not given to me separately by the distro?

The plaques weren't ready when shipping started. Very possible games made late had the plaques with the game, or distributor stuck it in there.

LTG : )

#3781 2 years ago

I'm looking forward to getting the game....gonna be a long 6 - 8 month wait

#3782 2 years ago

One thing about adding code… it would usually require more/new callouts. I could see how that would get super tricky with some of the remakes

60
#3783 2 years ago
Quoted from MrMikeman:

ummmm... not quite. Silkscreening is done in layers with dithering. I visited Stern back in the day when they were still silkscreening their own playfields and also CPR when they first started. I've seen it first hand. It takes many layers to get all the colors down and each layer has to dry before the next one is applied. Long and tedious.
From what I was told screen printing is basically an inkjet printer. I think it's 1 pass and done. Screen printing is cheaper and faster which is why most manufacturers changed to that method. Oh and you get nicer photo realistic artwork. Only problem is lifts with the clearcoat.
From a non-expert point of view is would seem like there's an adherence issue with the ink with the newer process. It sticks to the clearcoat much more than it sticks to the playfield.

Screen printing and silk screening are just different names for the same thing. In this process each layer of ink is put down separately by pushing ink through a silkscreen onto whatever media you are printing on.

Typically screen printing utilizes 4-color process (aka CMYK) which utilizes cyan, magenta, yellow and black ink to create the appearance of a limited gamut of colors. Playfields typically screened CMYK utilize six silk screens (white, C, M, Y, K and opaque black). Solvent based inks are used when silk screening playfields.

We have screen printed all remakes utilizing spot colors as was done for the original games. Utilizing spot colors provides a much wider color gamut. Instead of colors being represented by a mix of C, M, Y or K dots, the color you are seeing is achieved by mixing each ink to the specific color desired. Another upside to spot colors is a richer appearance as the solid colors tend to fully flood an area instead of appearing as small dots. The downside of spot colors is efficiency. Our previous remakes have required 12 to 14 screening operations. Each operation needs to be near perfectly registered to the previous layer of silk screen ink.

The other downside of silk screening playfields is the skill level required.

I believe the other playfield manufacturers are digitally printing playfields and sometimes digitally printing and then adding a single screen printed spot color. Digital printing equipment puts down all four colors (CMYK) in a single pass. Digital inks are UV cured which mean they dry instantly. Most digital printers are 4-color process. Registration between the colors is never an issue and loading a digital press requires almost no skill.

I believe all playfield manufacturers are using urethane clear coats. Some are using automotive grade urethanes which are widely available and less expensive. We still use the same supplier and material as Williams/Bally did. This product was initially developed to coat the heads of wooden golf clubs by a chemist named Dale Bodiker. He found a way to formulate a urethane hard coat that would remain flexible over time. We have looked for another product with similar characteristics but have been unable to find anything that remains flexible.

Urethane is extremely sensitive to certain contaminants. UV inks are typically produced by the manufacturer of the printing equipment. I have looked into digital printing equipment but have been unable to find digital inks specifically formulated for use with urethane. That doesn’t mean they don’t exist. We purchase solvent based inks mixed to our specifications which include purity level requirements.

#3784 2 years ago
Quoted from Doug_Duba:

We have screen printed all remakes utilizing spot colors as was done for the original games.

Your playfields are awesome. They definitely "pop".

#3785 2 years ago
Quoted from Doug_Duba:

Our previous remakes have required 12 to 14 screening operations. Each operation needs to be near perfectly registered to the previous layer of silk screen ink.

That is a wealth of information, thanks Doug. Screen registration is tough enough when using only 2 screens. I can't imagine 14. The Churchhill article (https://www.pinballnews.com/site/2016/11/04/churchill-cabinet-company-tour/) had some rad photos of the process taking place.

Top quality to say the least.

Churchhill playfield screening (resized).pngChurchhill playfield screening (resized).png
#3786 2 years ago
Quoted from Doug_Duba:

Screen printing and silk screening are just different names for the same thing. In this process each layer of ink is put down separately by pushing ink through a silkscreen onto whatever media you are printing on.
Typically screen printing utilizes 4-color process (aka CMYK) which utilizes cyan, magenta, yellow and black ink to create the appearance of a limited gamut of colors. Playfields typically screened CMYK utilize six silk screens (white, C, M, Y, K and opaque black). Solvent based inks are used when silk screening playfields.
We have screen printed all remakes utilizing spot colors as was done for the original games. Utilizing spot colors provides a much wider color gamut. Instead of colors being represented by a mix of C, M, Y or K dots, the color you are seeing is achieved by mixing each ink to the specific color desired. Another upside to spot colors is a richer appearance as the solid colors tend to fully flood an area instead of appearing as small dots. The downside of spot colors is efficiency. Our previous remakes have required 12 to 14 screening operations. Each operation needs to be near perfectly registered to the previous layer of silk screen ink.
The other downside of silk screening playfields is the skill level required.
I believe the other playfield manufacturers are digitally printing playfields and sometimes digitally printing and then adding a single screen printed spot color. Digital printing equipment puts down all four colors (CMYK) in a single pass. Digital inks are UV cured which mean they dry instantly. Most digital printers are 4-color process. Registration between the colors is never an issue and loading a digital press requires almost no skill.
I believe all playfield manufacturers are using urethane clear coats. Some are using automotive grade urethanes which are widely available and less expensive. We still use the same supplier and material as Williams/Bally did. This product was initially developed to coat the heads of wooden golf clubs by a chemist named Dale Bodiker. He found a way to formulate a urethane hard coat that would remain flexible over time. We have looked for another product with similar characteristics but have been unable to find anything that remains flexible.
Urethane is extremely sensitive to certain contaminants. UV inks are typically produced by the manufacturer of the printing equipment. I have looked into digital printing equipment but have been unable to find digital inks specifically formulated for use with urethane. That doesn’t mean they don’t exist. We purchase solvent based inks mixed to our specifications which include purity level requirements.

Thanks so much for the description!!! I was definitively talking about the digital printing as being possibly problematic with adherence/compatibility issues. Or so it would seem... Love the quality product of CGC - even though I only have the MMrRE for now.

BTW your participation in this thread is so appreciated.

#3787 2 years ago
Quoted from Doug_Duba:

Screen printing and silk screening are just different names for the same thing. In this process each layer of ink is put down separately by pushing ink through a silkscreen onto whatever media you are printing on.
Typically screen printing utilizes 4-color process (aka CMYK) which utilizes cyan, magenta, yellow and black ink to create the appearance of a limited gamut of colors. Playfields typically screened CMYK utilize six silk screens (white, C, M, Y, K and opaque black). Solvent based inks are used when silk screening playfields.
We have screen printed all remakes utilizing spot colors as was done for the original games. Utilizing spot colors provides a much wider color gamut. Instead of colors being represented by a mix of C, M, Y or K dots, the color you are seeing is achieved by mixing each ink to the specific color desired. Another upside to spot colors is a richer appearance as the solid colors tend to fully flood an area instead of appearing as small dots. The downside of spot colors is efficiency. Our previous remakes have required 12 to 14 screening operations. Each operation needs to be near perfectly registered to the previous layer of silk screen ink.
The other downside of silk screening playfields is the skill level required.
I believe the other playfield manufacturers are digitally printing playfields and sometimes digitally printing and then adding a single screen printed spot color. Digital printing equipment puts down all four colors (CMYK) in a single pass. Digital inks are UV cured which mean they dry instantly. Most digital printers are 4-color process. Registration between the colors is never an issue and loading a digital press requires almost no skill.
I believe all playfield manufacturers are using urethane clear coats. Some are using automotive grade urethanes which are widely available and less expensive. We still use the same supplier and material as Williams/Bally did. This product was initially developed to coat the heads of wooden golf clubs by a chemist named Dale Bodiker. He found a way to formulate a urethane hard coat that would remain flexible over time. We have looked for another product with similar characteristics but have been unable to find anything that remains flexible.
Urethane is extremely sensitive to certain contaminants. UV inks are typically produced by the manufacturer of the printing equipment. I have looked into digital printing equipment but have been unable to find digital inks specifically formulated for use with urethane. That doesn’t mean they don’t exist. We purchase solvent based inks mixed to our specifications which include purity level requirements.

Dougie Duba! Very nice

#3788 2 years ago

Hey Doug

Sins we have you here explaining the playfields. How come that the Monsterbash playfield get so much dimplings and not the other remakes?

#3789 2 years ago
Quoted from Kungen:

Hey Doug
Sins we have you here explaining the playfields. How come that the Monsterbash playfield get so much dimplings and not the other remakes?

I'd take that anyday over the MMRLE peeling, must be a stern made playfield since they did build MMR then. That would make sense.

#3790 2 years ago
Quoted from Lamberger:

I'd take that anyday over the MMRLE peeling, must be a stern made playfield since they did build MMR then. That would make sense.

Ugh...lesson learned.

#3791 2 years ago
Quoted from Doug_Duba:

lesson learned.

Great to know.

If only others could say that where playfield quality is concerned :/

#3792 2 years ago
Quoted from Lamberger:

I'd take that anyday over the MMRLE peeling, must be a stern made playfield since they did build MMR then. That would make sense.

Did Stern print those playfields? or Churchill Cabinet?

#3793 2 years ago
Quoted from Doug_Duba:

Screen printing and silk screening are just different names for the same thing. In this process each layer of ink is put down separately by pushing ink through a silkscreen onto whatever media you are printing on.
Typically screen printing utilizes 4-color process (aka CMYK) which utilizes cyan, magenta, yellow and black ink to create the appearance of a limited gamut of colors. Playfields typically screened CMYK utilize six silk screens (white, C, M, Y, K and opaque black). Solvent based inks are used when silk screening playfields.
We have screen printed all remakes utilizing spot colors as was done for the original games. Utilizing spot colors provides a much wider color gamut. Instead of colors being represented by a mix of C, M, Y or K dots, the color you are seeing is achieved by mixing each ink to the specific color desired. Another upside to spot colors is a richer appearance as the solid colors tend to fully flood an area instead of appearing as small dots. The downside of spot colors is efficiency. Our previous remakes have required 12 to 14 screening operations. Each operation needs to be near perfectly registered to the previous layer of silk screen ink.
The other downside of silk screening playfields is the skill level required.
I believe the other playfield manufacturers are digitally printing playfields and sometimes digitally printing and then adding a single screen printed spot color. Digital printing equipment puts down all four colors (CMYK) in a single pass. Digital inks are UV cured which mean they dry instantly. Most digital printers are 4-color process. Registration between the colors is never an issue and loading a digital press requires almost no skill.
I believe all playfield manufacturers are using urethane clear coats. Some are using automotive grade urethanes which are widely available and less expensive. We still use the same supplier and material as Williams/Bally did. This product was initially developed to coat the heads of wooden golf clubs by a chemist named Dale Bodiker. He found a way to formulate a urethane hard coat that would remain flexible over time. We have looked for another product with similar characteristics but have been unable to find anything that remains flexible.
Urethane is extremely sensitive to certain contaminants. UV inks are typically produced by the manufacturer of the printing equipment. I have looked into digital printing equipment but have been unable to find digital inks specifically formulated for use with urethane. That doesn’t mean they don’t exist. We purchase solvent based inks mixed to our specifications which include purity level requirements.

Might want to make this one a sticky

#3794 2 years ago
Quoted from Doug_Duba:

Ugh...lesson learned.

So it looks like bullet proof playfield's after stern MMr's. Won't be any chance to get a beat up CCr then so my #3751 post doesn't apply to CGC. Just sterns and JJP.lol. learn something new everyday. Thanks Doug. Congrats! Williams quality, love it! Looking forward to CCr.

#3795 2 years ago
Quoted from Doug_Duba:

I believe all playfield manufacturers are using urethane clear coats. Some are using automotive grade urethanes which are widely available and less expensive. We still use the same supplier and material as Williams/Bally did. This product was initially developed to coat the heads of wooden golf clubs by a chemist named Dale Bodiker. He found a way to formulate a urethane hard coat that would remain flexible over time. We have looked for another product with similar characteristics but have been unable to find anything that remains flexible.

That's interesting! I just asked Pat Lawlor about Diamondplate at his Expo seminar and he indicated that components of the Diamondplate urethane had been banned by the EPA and could no longer be used.

With the information you just stated and a little reading between the lines, the urethane components probably aren't available in Germany where Mirco makes JJP's playfields. So I guess it was the truth - "from a certain point of view".

#3796 2 years ago
Quoted from Kungen:

Hey Doug
Sins we have you here explaining the playfields. How come that the Monsterbash playfield get so much dimplings and not the other remakes?

I have an MBr that sat in the box for a year or so prior to my opening it up. No dimpling. Maybe a cure issue?

#3797 2 years ago
Quoted from sulli10:

I have an MBr that sat in the box for a year or so prior to my opening it up. No dimpling. Maybe a cure issue?

I also hade my game stored in box over a year before opening it up.

#3798 2 years ago
Quoted from Doug_Duba:

Screen printing and silk screening are just different names for the same thing. In this process each layer of ink is put down separately by pushing ink through a silkscreen onto whatever media you are printing on.
Typically screen printing utilizes 4-color process (aka CMYK) which utilizes cyan, magenta, yellow and black ink to create the appearance of a limited gamut of colors. Playfields typically screened CMYK utilize six silk screens (white, C, M, Y, K and opaque black). Solvent based inks are used when silk screening playfields.
We have screen printed all remakes utilizing spot colors as was done for the original games. Utilizing spot colors provides a much wider color gamut. Instead of colors being represented by a mix of C, M, Y or K dots, the color you are seeing is achieved by mixing each ink to the specific color desired. Another upside to spot colors is a richer appearance as the solid colors tend to fully flood an area instead of appearing as small dots. The downside of spot colors is efficiency. Our previous remakes have required 12 to 14 screening operations. Each operation needs to be near perfectly registered to the previous layer of silk screen ink.
The other downside of silk screening playfields is the skill level required.
I believe the other playfield manufacturers are digitally printing playfields and sometimes digitally printing and then adding a single screen printed spot color. Digital printing equipment puts down all four colors (CMYK) in a single pass. Digital inks are UV cured which mean they dry instantly. Most digital printers are 4-color process. Registration between the colors is never an issue and loading a digital press requires almost no skill.
I believe all playfield manufacturers are using urethane clear coats. Some are using automotive grade urethanes which are widely available and less expensive. We still use the same supplier and material as Williams/Bally did. This product was initially developed to coat the heads of wooden golf clubs by a chemist named Dale Bodiker. He found a way to formulate a urethane hard coat that would remain flexible over time. We have looked for another product with similar characteristics but have been unable to find anything that remains flexible.
Urethane is extremely sensitive to certain contaminants. UV inks are typically produced by the manufacturer of the printing equipment. I have looked into digital printing equipment but have been unable to find digital inks specifically formulated for use with urethane. That doesn’t mean they don’t exist. We purchase solvent based inks mixed to our specifications which include purity level requirements.

Can you call Jack and offer to manufacture JJP playfields?

#3799 2 years ago
Quoted from Kungen:

I also had my game stored in box over a year before opening it up.

Just curious - why?

I can’t imagine having that level of patience. The anticipation would do me in.

#3800 2 years ago
Quoted from Lamberger:

I'd take that anyday over the MMRLE peeling, must be a stern made playfield since they did build MMR then. That would make sense.

My MMr was made in 2017 (1660 of 2000). Would it be a stern playfield? No flaking here.

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