I agree with you. That part sucks. And I don't know a way around it except changing the LE structure completely or scrapping the numbered run and make it limited time instead? I don't know.

But, I had to put in some work to get an LE and it was strictly for the topper. Now, it was all really a complete waste of my time. And I did all of that was because of some of the marketing materials and comments that came directly from distributors and CGC.

It is what it is now. I still want my game. I'm still excited about my game. I'm honestly happy for all the SE+ buyers that get to enjoy the topper now too. But, I can still be pissed at CGC and Rick on the way they handled this.

Seeing that you can't even read a few pages back, I'll spell it out for you for the fiftieth time: almost everyone wants the game. Show me evidence of these flippers. The number is very low.

Not everyone can get the latest stern LE. Guess why? It's LIMITED.

They did a run of 1250 when stern usually does 500. This company will feel it when times aren't as good, trust me. I'm only keeping my order because I've wanted this game for over a decade. I don't care what they make in the future.

I can't believe that stern has ended up being the best pinball company. It's like I'm living in another dimension.

CGC should just move to the JJP model....make a shit ton of LE's even thought their not LE's, and have a CE version of the game (500 units) or simply make a base model and let people buy whatever upgrades they want i.e. topper, game blades, trim, toys, etc.....

You just described a bad situation for cgc… then suggest they make a change that puts them right back in that spot?

Instant sellouts = joy for cgc.

Let demand build and announce another edition… and that model will even have more demand because people will fear missing out like they saw before.

This is the exact wave stern and everyone else is riding right now. They’d be stupid to kill the fomo monster. It creates them instant sales

I totally agree. I don't care if they want to sell a zillion LEs. I'm just not a fan of being deceived.

Apparently I needed to attend a show to learn about what I was buying.

I feel CGC handled the situation very well and don't understand why people are upset.

There still are only 1250 LE games made.
It's the top version, limited, and sold out fast.
Congratulations to everyone who will get one.

That an SE+ version exists now does not change anything to the LE run. LE has more options.
And LE even proves to be more valuable when you see what people are willing to pay for the SE+. So it's value may even have increased more.

And for those few whose argument is that they only have a topper and no one else may enjoy it - don't be so greedy. If your enjoyment of pinball is purely that you have something that others don't have : please search another hobby.

Live and learn...now we know their business model...just imagine the profit CGC is making on selling that topper for $1200+ .... well over a grand per unit....I'm sure that was hard for them to walk away from in this stupid market (which will change sooner than later IMHO)

Clearly you're an economist.

I was never a CCR buyer in any version but it is really starting to bother me how almost every manufacturer has figured out the way to create initial FOMO to sell something "limited" then the minute it is to their financial advantage to make it no longer limited they change it:

Stern: After TWD LE sells out they offer a premium with the same feature. BM66 SLE goes from 40->80. Munsters LE number increased beyond what was initially announced. Elvira Signature edition comes out after previous LE and SLE increase in value.

JJP: After WOZ LE sells out there is a Ruby Red LE, and Later a YBR LE. Rinse and repeat for Hobbit.

CGC: Initialy MMR is limited to 1000, then a standard with essentially the same features. They comes a Royal Edition. With CCR once they see dealers selling over MSRP and people flipping their CCR LE spots for quick profit they add an SE+ version.

Alien: After the initial manufacturer's LE, and new manufacturer takes over with another LE.

American Pinball: the limited version of LOV sells out almost immediately... then the edition size is doubled.

What bothers me even more than manufactures doing this is that in every case people come on this forum to defend this practice.

Lots of narrow minded whiny bitches.
Just skip it and get a se instead, im sure others can see value.
Good riddance whiner.

Sooo, are you in then? Seemed pretty clear you had no interest in this product nor the market interest for these to sell? Seems they did a pretty good job from what the interest is showing.

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Ummm...Why dont you look at the history...The machine has not even been in the hands of buyers and 2 already sold for over retail, and there are 4 on the market.
The pot calling the kettle black.

It’s pretty much been that way since LEs began and certainly isn’t unique to CGC.

Some Stern LEs are gone before the game is even revealed. If you are lucky to be in the right place at the right time maybe you can see and possibly play a game and/or talk with folks from the company but that’s not practical for most.

And there is always the “Features Subject to Change” disclaimer. Even if you think you know what you are getting you might not get what you think.

And this is unlikely to change as long as there are exclusive features or limited editions.

The model was started (essentially by Stern) because it was a profitable way to sell higher margin units early in the production cycle. Hard to give that up if you are the manufacturer.

Do you guys and gals think a timed limited edition release would work? Like a certain amount of hours to order and that's it. Think of CCr for the example with the topper only available on the LE trim. Would the FOMO for the manufacturer to sell enough units disappear?

I know this was kind of a thing with the Deeproot launch bit that's a terrible example.

I feel like this would solve the issue with people flipping the games, bit still create plenty of demand. As long as it's not something like a week long time frame....

In my head this makes a ton of sense for the manufacturers and the collector community... I'm sure I'm missing a hundred loop holes though.

Thoughts?

If there is no scarcity - there is no FOMO. See JJP 'limited editions'

so is the game coming out with the original rules plus already some new expanded rules?
Are these made by Lyman?
Is the game finished or is there going to be code updates later on?

I guess... But, JJP LE's are ridiculously set at a high number with an unlimited amount of time to buy one...

If the manufacturer limited the purchase window to say, 4 hours... Would that be different?

Probably just create a cluster fuck for the distributors I guess...

The original game is flushed out to be complete. See things like Bionic Bart, completed sound effects, etc. As playing at shows, the code looks complete and polished.

Separately there will be a different game/ruleset/something of which the scope is not known - which is the effort from Lyman and Josh that will be sold at some point in the future. No ETAs, no estimates on cost.

The war cry from people has the same underlying tune... "let everyone who wants a game get a game". That by its very nature means 'no scarcity'. Does it really matter how you slice and dice the sales process if your fundamental goal is the same... 'let everyone who wants a game get a game'. Any model that creates the limit/boundary will exclude people.. so you will keep coming back to the same upset complaints because you will have failed on that objective in some way.

People are so wound up into 'exclusivity' that they are living and dying on that point alone.. it's freaking insane. It's a pinball machine, not something to prove who has the best toys.

To me it was plainly obvious when they announced the prices the LE was a clear choice. The price delta between the SE and LE was too low making the LE a no-brainer in the land of $1-2k topper sales.

I think the only thing that would have made this audience happy was if the toppers themselves were a limited run and they sold them for stupid money. It's sad, but that's what seems to fuel the interest of some of this audience.. having something they can claim is rare/exclusive.

The LE model debate really doesn’t belong in a thread that’s about Cactus Canyon. Not fair to Chicago Gaming.

Doug made a decision on the toppers.
Rick made a decision regarding the aftermarket mirrored backglasses.
Can we turn the page?

Is anyone interested in actually talking about the game and the gameplay?

I think people will still complain. But if they do go this route, keep the window open only from 0800 to 1700 hours.

If manufacturers really do care about flippers (I doubt it) they could muddy the waters by contractually limiting the ability to flip. No doubt sales are lost because of this. If I had the choice between SE+ and paying the markup to a flipper, I'd pay the markup to own the LE. If I had to wait a year to buy an LE or own an SE+ sooner, I'd probably buy the SE+ and may even forget about buying the LE in a year from now (love IMDN pro and SW pro that I haven't even considered going after the LE versions).

I bet there would be a way to arrange a sales agreement to prohibit flipping an LE within the first year of owning (for more than MSRP/tax/shipping). I know I wouldn't mind this sort of contract, someone could still sell in that timeframe but would be prohibited from making a profit. Maybe force resales to be arranged through the distributor to ensure sale price (and allow the warrantee to transfer ownership).

Would be a real pain to enforce.

I am an LE owner and I kinda like this solution. It would have been different if the LE's hadn't sold out **immediately** . It is true that Stern's also sell out super quick, but for the most part (other than the backglass) you can ala' carte your game into a LE without much difficulty. With the CCr you really are looking at a substantial difference between the SE and LE. Almost like the difference between the Stern Pro and LE... where the difference is very noticeable and you can't ala' carte the difference.

I do thing that CGC should cap the sales of SE+ after a few weeks or so. It would be disappointing to see SE+ for sale late in 2022. However, I think it is a fair solution to allow people to buy the SE+ essentially as the same price as the LE. The folks who got in on the LE end up getting a package discount with the apron/armor/shaker and etc.

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/cactus-canyon-remake-le-owners-number-swap-come-find-your-match#post-6593012

Since number matching is apparently not happening, If you’d like to match your limited edition number to your previous titles number, I’ve created a thread where buyers can try and find others with the numbers they’re looking for. Good luck

Agreed. Some people here are acting like 5 year olds when you take their toys away. I like that the rich guys' money funds a lot of this hobby, but the maturity level at the top leaves something to be desired

Only the same gameplay features. And they've been doing so ever since. Good for Stern!

It seems to be working for limited run games (videogames). Used to be they'd run a set number (couple thousands) of a title, now most titles are open preorder for X weeks and they make enough to cover. It's still limited because if you don't get in then, it's gone.

It's interesting because the open preorder could make some obscure games even more rare, but the big titles like Castlevania can still be bought by whomever wants it. Their customers are generally happy because most buy to own rather than flip.

dumbest comment of the day.

Jealousy really is an ugly emotion.

I am in on an LE. But I have to admit I'm not a fan of the whole LE concept. It's caused much frustration. I'm the kind of guy who wants every option when I buy a car and I am the same way with pinball. Don't limit the number of games that have all the options.....only limit the number of games if necessary. I really wish it was 2 options....base model and the all options model. No more of this limited number nonsense except for the total run of games. And sell as many toppers as people want.

“Greedy”? Are you referring to CGC?

They sell LEs to create the FOMO. That’s how it works.

The “collectible” and “limited” aspect of these pins is exactly WHY pinball is blowing up, along with making great games of course.

Why not just have ALL the “greedy” components of the LE, armor, badge, train etc just be available too for everybody.

Because then CGC couldn’t sell them out now could they?

The entire concept of a “limited edition” is having something that not everyone else has! It happens in EVERY hobby

As has been said many times, it's a good thing pinside doesn't run the pinball companies. We would have zero new machines.

Not totally correct. Matching is available to those with the previous three games.

Love when ignorant people post LOL

My boyfriend finished the entire game on ball 1. First game. We have zero interest in buying either model right now, no legs at all. Definitely taking another look when the Lyman code drops, but this one is a no go.

Every single one of your dozens of posts here are whining about the extra toppers. You're not jealous that the proles are also getting the shootout as well now are you?

Send me your plaque I'll grind any number you want on there and nobody will ever know. (or care) lol

What I posted had nothing to do with CCr. Like I said jealousy and insecurity just seep from deep inside you.LOL

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No I meant the LE buyers that complain an SE+ won't make their game exclusive enough anymore.

If you have zero interest; why are you here commenting ? go to another thread that interests you !

If you have zero interest; why are you here commenting ? go to another thread that interests you ! I'm sorry to hear you have no legs

Ok, I'll bite: what am I supposedly jealous of here? It's certainly not of your games: I own or have owned every title you do. Just don't feel a need to show them off here. There is literally nothing else I could possibly be envious about you, certainly not your personality

You never answered, are you jealous of others getting the topper? "But the AGREEMENT!!1"

This is a good point. I was curious how the toppers would be resolved. At this point, this thread is better than watching the Bengals...

Not at all. You should see my free upvote thread.

Oh I thought you were referring to the greedy amount of money CGC and PPS were making on this move.

Like I said, why stop at the topper. Let’s just strip out all of the “greedy” stuff in there!

What a ridiculous argument. See my post above

Add the mirrored backglass to the LE’s or the new Lyman rules with the LE’s then everyone can say the LE is an LE and we can get on with our lives?

Listen, I get it, you having to attempt to tear down people that are more successful than you on a thread you don’t care about doesn’t show your jealousy of them at all, it’s completely normal.LOL.

You're tearing yourself down. All I'm asking is why you're so jealous that people can add the topper to their SEs? Why does it bother you so much that others can pay more to get the same thing you have? I seriously don't get that mentality. And then you call me jealous? Yeah, that's hypocrisy.

Completely normal response, accusing me of being jealous of someone getting less for more, makes perfect sense. I guess decades of not being able to buy the games that more successful people have would do that to a guy.

Generously having CGC add a free mirrored backglass to the LE package would certainly make the LE a more complete game.

It would certainly take the sting out of diluting the LE game's exclusivity of having the animated topper available on a lesser model. I dont think its necessary though.

At the value/price offered, I have no problem spending a little more to add a better backglass to my game.

I agree with others that, in this case the, LE is a great deal at a more than fair price.

In fact the price was almost too good to pass up considering the way it instantly sold out to the tune of an instant $12M in sales.

Selling an additional 1000 toppers for another million dollars to a demanding public is just good business sense.

Well done PPS and CGC.

Im super excited to set this game up and play the crap out of it!

You two should consider getting a room to wrestle it out lol.