(Topic ID: 123926)

Catacomb Club

By AlexSMendes

9 years ago


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  • Latest reply 35 days ago by cottonm4
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7 key posts have been marked in this topic

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Post #217 Good summary of complicated rules on bagatelle. Posted by cottonm4 (7 years ago)

Post #244 Catacomb tips. Posted by cottonm4 (6 years ago)

Post #299 Great rule summary. Posted by cottonm4 (6 years ago)

Post #311 Catacomb rules video. Posted by OTTOgd (6 years ago)

Post #328 PAPA video linked! Posted by harbngr (6 years ago)

Post #434 Analysis of Stern production numbers Posted by Shapeshifter (5 years ago)

Post #608 Roger Sharp game review for Catacomb from 1981 Posted by Shapeshifter (5 years ago)


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#217 7 years ago

I now have a Catacomb. Serial number 5175. Very clean machine. It has a couple of small problems with some jury rigged wiring that I am straightening out.

IMG_3151 (resized).JPGIMG_3151 (resized).JPG

Like everybody else, I am trying to figure out the rules for the bagatelle. Here is one item I notice: As long as you keep lighting a new number in the "toast" section, you get to keep going. As soon as you trigger a light you already have lit, you are kicked back to play field with a ball in the chute.

While what follows does not help all that much with understanding the rules, there has to be a key to the rules somewhere in this magic square.

What you have in the center of the play field is a Magic Square. This one is called the 4 x 4 Durer magic square. There is more info. at this link.

http://mathforum.org/alejandre/magic.square/adler/adler.whatsquare.html

and this link. (the one on the play field is reversed from the one in the link. The author created it in 1514 and the two numbers in the "toast" reflect that.

http://mathforum.org/alejandre/magic.square/al.html

The magic part comes in because in all four rows and all four columns, each column or row, the total of the numbers is 34. The bonus for each completed line is 34,000 points. If you add the four rows together you get 136. On the play field, it says super bonus is 136,000.

That is about as mathematically inclined as I can get as I still try to understand the rules.

Here is a pic showing the addition for the rows, the columns, and the diagonals.

Screen Shot 2017-02-11 at 9.16.43 AM (resized).pngScreen Shot 2017-02-11 at 9.16.43 AM (resized).png

And this pic shows how each of the four colors of lights ad up to 34.

Screen Shot 2017-02-11 at 9.38.04 AM (resized).pngScreen Shot 2017-02-11 at 9.38.04 AM (resized).png

2 months later
#229 6 years ago
Quoted from PavBall:

I think we will have to get rather creative with the powder coat.

Don't powder coat your Catacomb. Polish the stainless or go with chrome. I like polished stainless, myself. Others do not.

1 month later
#233 6 years ago

Does anybody know how to turn off that growling ?? // dragon?? sound? I don't mind the speech but that growling that comes on every time you hit some podunk switch is getting annoying.

Dip switch #8 is supposed to turn background sound on and off, but the incessant growling continues.

How do I turn it off? Anybody know?

#235 6 years ago
Quoted from dothedoo:

Sounds like you may be selling your Catacomb soon.

Nope. Not selling. I like the game play. I even like the bagatelle. I like it with the talking on. The growling sound is annoying and I would like to find a way to turn it off. But it is not "I'm gonna sell it" annoying.

2 weeks later
#237 6 years ago

The more I play this game, the better I like it. The better I like it, the more I play. The more I play, the better I get. The better I get, the more I play. The more I play...........

I was not completely sure what to expect when I went chasing this pin. What You Tube movies there are (and there are some good YT movies for Catacomb) do not give this pin justice, IMO.

The ball movement is fluid and fast. And you get lots of flipper friendly shots. And then the machine shows you who is boss. You work for every point you get. I'm glad I managed to get a Catacomb.

#240 6 years ago
Quoted from PavBall:

Did you figure out how to turn off the growling or did it grow on you? We really can't wait to get our Catacomb back. Should be sometime soon.

I have not figured out how to turn it off. I have just learned to ignore it. When I get a killer ball going all sounds sort of fade into the background as I concentrate on keeping that ball in action. It is such an adrenaline rush to play.

1 week later
#244 6 years ago

_________________________________ How to play Catacomb.

This is a rough draft. There are redundancies where I may talk about the same thing two, or three, or more times. It is subject to revision.

********************

I don't know everything about Catacomb and I hope what you read does not make it sound like I think I know it all; I don't. If you know this game and see some items I did not get quite right, post it on the thread and I will revise my writeup. Hopefully, with spell check there will be no spelling errors. However, there could be some grammatical errors. Let me know and I will correct them.

If you have knowledge of the items I write about and have suggestions on how I could write them in a more clear and concise manner, please speck up.

If I leave you confused and scratching your head, by all means tell me so.

My objective is to have a well-written set of instructions so that anybody who steps in to play Catacomb for the first time can have sort of a road map to help out and have fun playing this pin. I won't guarantee that these instructions will make you a better player on Catacomb, but at least you'll KNOW WHY your are getting your ass kicked by this pinball machine

Thank you.
--------------------------------------------------------

A few posts earlier I wrote up some information detailing how the 16 lights inside the "toast" section of Catacomb play field was laid out in the form of a Magic Square. If the term magic square has you scratching your head, roll up to post #217 where you will find me talking about the Magic Square.

1) I am going to talk about how Catacomb is two games in one.
2) I am going to talk about the two different ways to light up the 16 lights in the Magic Square.
3) I am going to talk about how Catacomb Multi-ball works in conjunction with the Magic Square.
4) I am going to talk about how Catacomb awards Extra Balls.
5) I am going to talk about my own invented term I call "Inside Square" just so I can write with clarity.
6) Most of what I will be writing about are in the apron card instructions and owner's manual instructions.

A lot of people have been turned off to Catacomb because of the back box portion of this game along with lighting up the 16 lights in the middle of the play field. Perception is everything and if someone has a bad experience with Catacomb they may write up a review of how "lacking" Catacomb is and warn you off of a pin that you really should try for yourself instead of being fed negative waves. I am hoping to change peoples’ perceptions about Catacomb because it has become a pin that I am having a bang up time playing. I almost did not buy my Catacomb because of some of the negative reviews; That would had been a terrible mistake.

In an earlier post I mentioned my observation that the lighting maze in the center of the play field was laid out in the form of a Magic Square. While The Magic Square is what the entire basis of Catacomb is based on, you, the player, do not need to be concerned about Magic Square as it not a necessary item to understand in order to play Catacomb. However, I will be talking about Magic Square many times as I write. Know that it is a magic Square---and then don't worry about it; It will not affect your game.

I am writing this for someone who is familiar with the Catacomb play field layout. Or for someone who can access a Catacomb to learn the play field layout. This is not going to be for the casual reader.

For purpose of brevity, Catacomb will be referred to simply as Cat
For reference, the Magic Square has been referred to as the “toast” on Pinside and Stern’s blueprint calls it the Bonus. I like Magic Square and will stay with that. So, Toast, Bonus, and Magic Square are all referencing the 16 lights in the middle of the play field.
_________________________________________________________

Cat is two games in one. The first game is the play field game where you are hammering the drop targets. The second game is the back box game.

Let's talk about the play field game, first.

The Play field game:_________________ BANGING THE DROP TARGETS

1) I will be talking about Cat’s four drop target assemblies. The Stern blueprint refers to the four drop target assemblies as Drop Target Bank “A”, D. T. Bank “B”, D.T. Bank “C”, D.T. Bank “D”.
I will refer to them as Bank A or Target Bank A, etc.

****NOTE: These four Bank Target assemblies are the main feature of Cat. Everything in Cat is about the drop target banks. ***

2) I will be talking about Cat’s three spot switches that spot #1, #6, and #2 lights inside the Magic Square, or Toast, or Bonus. Some of you refer to the Bonus Section as “Toast”. The Blueprint calls it Bonus. I like Magic Square for another reason I will be talking about shortly. Call it one of these three terms and I think we can stay on point.

3) I will be talking about Extra Balls.

4) I will be talking about multi-balls and something that I will be referring to as “inside squares” shortly.

5) I will be talking about the back box function that some refer to as Bagatelle. The blueprint refers to the bagatelle as Back Box Play Field. I’ll continue to use Bagatelle or I guess I could use BBPF

6) Cat is really two games in one. There is the play field game with the ball bouncing all over the play field and there is the back box/Bagatelle game. I will be using these two terms. For instance, when I get to rolling here shortly, I will be talking about the play field game. When the ball drains, I will be talking about the bagatelle game.

7) If we were in the same room together, I could point to this or point to that and you would understand what I am talking about in mere seconds. But with the written word, it gets more complicated. I hope you will understand.

I am getting all of my information from the Cat games I have been playing, but more importantly, I am getting most of what I will be talking about by reading the instructions on the apron card and the instructions in the owner’s manual. Everybody is used to the apron instruction card but it does not tell the whole story. There is a small bit of information inside the owner’s manual that clears some things up.

I don’t have Cat completely understood, yet. But I’m working on it. I’m not doing anything here that anybody else could not do. And if what I write helps someone else see something that needs to be added in an effort to fully understand Cat, than I hope what I am writing will cause discussion. This pinball machine, Catacomb, is a fantastic pinball.
_______________________________________________________________

I’m almost ready to get started but let’s play a different kind of game, first.

How many of you play Black Jack? Black Jack, the game of 21. All of you? Great ! It makes my answer easier to come by.

My question to you Black Jack players is this: What is the objective when you are playing Black Jack at the casino where the money is real? If you answered, as many do, that the objective is to get 21, then you would be wrong. The objective.....drum roll..... of casino Black Jack is to beat the dealer. That is all. You do not need 21 points to beat the dealer. The objective of Black Jack is to…..what? Beat the Dealer. You can beat the dealer with an Ace and a Deuce in your hand. 21 is the number that you do not want to exceed on your next draw of a card.

So, with Catacomb, what is the objective of Cat game play? If you say the objective is to light all 16 lights inside the Magic Square, you would be partially correct; But it also sort of depends where the game is located. My position is that if I am feeding quarters into Cat on location, then my objective is to win a game with my quarter. I want to roll enough points to win a free play. And it is not necessary to light all 16 lights in the Magic Square to win a free play. Lighting all 16 lights will make it easier to get the points you need, but you can get your points in other ways.

However, in a home free play setting, I would say getting all 16 Magic Square lights is the primary objective.
_______________________________________

I told you earlier there are two games in Cat. There is a play field game and there is a back box/bagatelle game.

Let’s get started with a play field game.

Bank A will be representative of all four target banks (see picture below). When you press the credit button to start a game you will see lights #1, #6, #14 and #9 at Bank A light up in a clockwise rotation. Banks B, C, and D will also light up in similar rotation. I will refer to these four lights as the rotating lights as we move along.

There are two skill-shot rollovers at the top of play field. The left most rollover, when lit, will spot the #6 light in the Magic Square. It will also stop the four lights from rotating and will freeze the rotation on the red light at each target bank. Similarly, the middle rollover will spot light #1 and freeze the rotating light on amber. The reason for the freeze is to give you a better chance to light some lights in the Magic Square. Keep reading.

NOTE : Below each of these rollovers, it is printed on the play field as to what they do. Just look up to the top of the play field if you forget which rollover lights which color.

There are two ways to light up the 16 lights inside the Magic Square. Think about this for a little bit.

One way is to attack the drop target banks. When you knock down the three drop targets, whichever light was lit when the third target went down will in turn light up the corresponding light in the Magic Square. So, as the four lights around Bank A are rotationally lighting up, if the Green #14 was lit, you will get a corresponding #14 light lit up inside the Magic Square. The other way to light those 16 lights is by playing the Back Box Bagatelle portion of the game.

As you shoot the ball around the table at Banks B, C and D, and you knock down the drop targets you will keep getting different lights to light up inside the Magic Square. After ball 1, I have had as many as 6 or 7 lights lit in the Magic Square; I have also had zero lights lit.

The cruel way to say this is that the better player you are and the more drop targets you hit, the more Magic Square lights you will earn on the play field game and you will spend less time trying to fight the Back Box Bagatelle for the lights you need.

The PERFECT PLAYER OF CAT will never drain the ball and will earn all of the Magic Square lights with flippers and nudging skills and will never have to fight the Back Box Bagatelle for lights.

So, when someone complains that they do not like the Back Box game, I will automatically assume that they are a poor player because the good player will not be visiting the Back Box game very much. Sorry, but that is the way it is. If you have access to a Cat on free play, take advantage and play that pin until your game improves.

Target Banks

All four Target Banks do the same thing, each bank with it own four numbers to work with. When you push the credit button all four numbers in all four Target Banks will start rotationally lighting up in clockwise direction. As long as you have a ball in play these numbers will be rotating unless you spotted the #1 or #6 light in the rollover lanes. I will be talking more about the rotating lights when I start talking about the back box portion of the game.

Screen Shot 2017-07-07 at 12.48.23 PM (resized).pngScreen Shot 2017-07-07 at 12.48.23 PM (resized).png

Let’s talk about Extra Balls and Target Banks

While the main function of the Target Banks is to add points and light up lights in the Magic Square, the second function of Banks A, B, C, and D is to earn extra balls. The way that happens is simple. Drop the three drop targets on Bank A, followed in order with Bank B, Bank C and Bank D. When you hit the last target on Bank D, the Extra Ball switches will light up in the two return lanes. The Extra Ball light alternates back and forth and if you can get the ball to roll over the switch, you will win an extra ball. Cat lets you accumulate Extra Balls. You can go around the A-B-C-D drops in order a second time and win a 2nd Extra Ball.

Cat lets you accumulate Extra Balls, so if you can keep the ball on the play field and knock all four Target Banks down in A-B-C-D order a second time, you will get a chance to win a second Extra Ball. Plus you will roll up a lot of points and probably get some lights to light up inside the Magic Square, as well.

Alrighty. You have been playing a killer ball, you also managed to lock two balls (speech tells you a prisoner has been captured) and you managed to get a multi-ball session going. Multi-ball sessions in Cat can be rather vicious: They almost always come on with a complete surprise, are usually over in a matter of seconds, are very fun and satisfying if you can keep the balls on the play field for any amount of time, and you are rarely in control; Cat is always in control.

Now that we are talking multi-ball I need to talk about what I call the Inside Squares; Inside Squares is my own term; you will not find it in the blueprint.

There are five squares in the Magic Square. The first square is the Magic Square that encompasses all 16 lights.

_____________________________________________.Bonus
_________________________________________ .Magic Square

Screen Shot 2017-07-07 at 12.52.38 PM (resized).pngScreen Shot 2017-07-07 at 12.52.38 PM (resized).png

Next are four Inside Squares: RED, ORANGE, BLUE, and GREEN. Keep reading down below.

Screen Shot 2017-07-07 at 12.38.26 PM (resized).pngScreen Shot 2017-07-07 at 12.38.26 PM (resized).png

Here is what the apron card says about Multi-Ball or Captive-Ball. The square being referred to is my Inside Square. For the following illustration, we will be talking about the “Red Inside Square”. Again, “Inside Square” is my own invented term.

Screen Shot 2017-07-07 at 10.44.19 AM (resized).pngScreen Shot 2017-07-07 at 10.44.19 AM (resized).png

Here are the Multi-Ball instructions from the owner’s manual. These instructions are just a bit more detailed. Remember this, because the apron card is written differently as I will talk about in a little bit.

Screen Shot 2017-07-07 at 10.43.38 AM (resized).pngScreen Shot 2017-07-07 at 10.43.38 AM (resized).png

Pay attention here. You are playing the same killer ball; You are still playing Ball 1. You have not drained.

Killer Ball #1 (KB-1) with three different situations

(KB-1) Situation #1

(KB-1) Situation #1: You have two balls locked. You have red light #1, #6, and #10 lit. Red light #11 is located in Bank B and is dark. Your Killer Ball #1 knocks down all three drop targets in Bank B and light #11 in the Magic Square lights up; you have just completed the Red Inside Square. And your Multi-Ball games starts.

(KB-1) Situation #2

(KB-1) Situation #2: You have no balls locked. None. Zero. Nada. Your Red Inside Square is set up exactly the same as Situation #1. Since you have no balls locked, your red inside square is wasted. I’ll explain: Assume you just completed the red inside square and the absolute next thing to happen is that you manage to lock a ball (you are still playing KB-1). Since the ball was locked AFTER the Inside Square was completed, you get no multi-ball action. Which leads me to (KB-1) Situation #3.

(KB-1) Situation #3

(KB-1) Situation #3: All is the same as Situation #2 above, however, you also have lights #15, #14, and #3 lit up in the Green Inside Square. And now you manage to light up green light #2 by knocking down the drop targets in Bank D and this completes the Green Inside Square. But you just locked a ball and this makes the Green Inside Square a live square and you have another multi-ball going.

I’ll try to write, in story form, the perfect ball--perfect multi-ball scenario. You will need to think about this and use your imagination.

You are playing (KB-1). You have two balls, Ball #1 and Ball #2, locked. You light the Red Inside Square and multi-ball starts. As you are playing a 3-ball multi-ball, you lock Ball #1 a second time and then you lock Ball #2 a second time and you continue playing. Then you manage to light four lights in the the Green Inside Square. This starts multi-ball session #2 two and you are still playing (KB-1)!

Try to visualize: a) You are playing (KB-1) and you have 3 of 4 red lights lit in the Red Inside Square. b) You lock Ball #1. b) You continue playing and lock ball #2. c) With two balls locked, you knock down a set of drop targets in one of the Target Banks and light the forth red light. d) This starts a multi-ball session. e) During multi-ball, you lock two balls again. f) And then you light up another inside square GREEN and start your second multi-ball session. And then you repeat this action for Inside Square ORANGE and Inside Square BLUE. Congratulations: You have just completed four multi-ball sessions with one killer ball (KB-1). And now you are set up to do this action a second time!

So, you, who are the perfect player, playing the perfect (KB-1) will experience four 3-ball multi-ball sessions with one killer ball. By default, since you lit up all four Inside Squares this means that you have also lit up all 16 lights in the Magic Square. And after you have completed the Magic Square, the 16 lights will go dark, the 136,000 point Bonus below the Magic Square lights up and you can do all of the above again. Think about it. You, the perfect player, could enjoy eight 3-ball multi-ball sessions with one killer ball !

Just remember, if you light up an Inside Square before you have any balls locked, that is a now a dead square and you will not get a multi-ball from that inside square.

As the instructions say., if you are playing the back box bagatelle, you can complete an inside square and multi-ball will start after you shoot the next ball. Also, per the instructions, lighting up the Inside Squares also lights up the bonus multiplier up to 5X.
________________________________

___________________________________________Inside Square Bonus Points

_________________________________________From the owner’s manual instructions

Screen Shot 2017-07-07 at 12.20.43 PM (resized).pngScreen Shot 2017-07-07 at 12.20.43 PM (resized).png

___________________________________________From the apron card instructions

Screen Shot 2017-07-07 at 12.21.08 PM (resized).pngScreen Shot 2017-07-07 at 12.21.08 PM (resized).png

The bonus points instructions in the owner manual differ from what is on the apron card. I do not have the answer, yet, but I am thinking that the apron card is not written correctly.

The apron card says the bonus is derived from the “LIT NUMBER OF SQUARES…” I am reading that as four lit Inside Squares. Four lit Inside Squares times 1000 would only be bonus points of 4000. That does not sound right.

The owner's manual says “bonus points come from the (Magic ?) square, where each NUMBER is worth 1000 points. 16,000 points total from the manual sounds more correct than 4000 points from the apron card.

*******************************

That is pretty much the end of Part 1 of this write up on how to play the play field game on Catacomb. I apologize for it coming out so long winded and I will try to condense and improve it if anybody is interested.

I have not yet written Part 2 about playing the back box part of the game. If nobody likes Part 1 there is little to gain by trying to write about the Back Box Bagatelle part of Catacomb. Writing about how to play the Back Box will be just as complicated and involved as writing about the play field game. And if Part 1 makes no sense to anyone, Part 2 would not be any better.

I apologize for leading you on a bit earlier about Part 2.

You all let me know if this write up was worth the effort and if you want me to work on Part 2.

Thank you.

#248 6 years ago
Quoted from brenna98:

What is the strategy within multiball for points? Sounds like hitting the spinner is worth the most.
I can't imagine locking 2 balls again is what you want to do right away..

My "strategy" has pretty much just managing to keep the balls on the play field (Cat does have a pair of greedy outlanes which makes playing multi-ball a real challenge). If I can manage the feat for any amount of time more than 10 seconds or so, I notice that afterwards, with the 3 balls bouncing around, that several more lights in the Magic Square have been lit up. So I suppose I don't pay as much attention to the spinner as I should because getting those lights lit in the Magic Square are paramount. Ripping the spinner is satisfying but I only target the spinner lane as a means, and another way, of reaching the drop targets in Bank B and Bank C.

Locking the balls is not something you do deliberately Cat. This is not like Scared Stiff where the "lock is lit" and you target for the lock. Locking balls in Cat is a random event. When your Cat arrives and you get it set up to play you will understand fully. The capture/lock holes are well hidden and cannot be targeted. You only lock balls by chance as the ball is bouncing around the play field. And more often than not, while playing a multi-ball session, at least one of the balls will get locked again and if that happens---and you have three more lights lit up on another inside square--and you light that fourth inside square light---you are going to have another multi-ball launch. This is one of the reasons why I said Cat is always in control in multi-ball.

4 weeks later
#251 6 years ago
Quoted from spiroagnew:

Agreed. I'll bet I drain through the outlanes about 90% of the time on Catacomb...if the ball careens towards the outlane, forget it, it's gone. Especially since I believe in pretty tight tilts. It's unbelievably brutal and unforgiving...but that's part of the game's charm, I guess.

What I have learned with Catacomb, and Dragonfist, is that you have to loosen up the tilt bobs. These two pins are made to be nudged and jostled around. Nudging Catacomb has given me back approximately 50% of my outlane balls. All you have to do is give it a shake and the ball will hit that rebound rubber knob and the ball will be yours for a bit longer. Seawitch, I rarely shake it--- but Cat and Dragonfist exist to be nudged.

You have to learn to nudge Catacomb or you will not be happy. Loosen your bob ( a lot) and try it. It is not going to hurt the pin.

Mine had a pair of red Super Bands rubber knobs on the outlane posts and those were impossible. I switched back to standard white rubber knobs and outlane play action improved tremendously.

4 months later
#281 6 years ago

And my set is in perfect condition.

3 weeks later
#283 6 years ago

Several months ago a Pinsider made up some lamp boards for Nine Ball and Big Game so we could get rid of the pesky lamp clusters. He made replacement 555 wedge type lamp boards. They work like a dream.

I have recently got my Catacomb up and running all the way but lights in the middle of the play field are a PIA. I would like to have one of these type of boards for my Catacomb. I would also like to have a set of 4 boards for those 4 lights at each drop target.

These are the lamp boards on my Nine Ball.

I'm looking to see if any other Catacomb owners would be interested in being able to switch to 555 wedge type bulbs on their Catacombs.

6ae192a2a3d32257a320badf66940f060009b894 (resized).jpg6ae192a2a3d32257a320badf66940f060009b894 (resized).jpg

f26ac00a0d9d7985823c8996b0937a97ddc26fed (resized).jpgf26ac00a0d9d7985823c8996b0937a97ddc26fed (resized).jpg

#285 6 years ago
Quoted from brenna98:

what's the advantage of these? I have been reading about similar thing with Meteor.
If the current setup works fine, why put this in?

I cannot argue it as an advantage since you can replace each socket individually on Catacomb.

For me , it is a preference, of sorts. I need to replace several sockets on my Catacomb and I find that I am really liking the 555 wedge type bulbs better than the #44/#47 bayonet bulbs. So I thought I would see if anybody else might be interested with the option of switching to the 555s.

#288 6 years ago
Quoted from spiroagnew:

If the lamp boards can be had for a reasonable price, as the Big Game ones were, I'd be in for a set.

Well, Spiro, that makes two of us.

#290 6 years ago
Quoted from Ralph67:

Hey Spiro, Scotch block , is that from a railway term? , I used to be a train drivers assistant , and we used that term, A Scotch block was a large metal clamp that could be placed over the track and locked down , to stop parked wagons/carriages from rolling back on to the main line . by either derailing them or stopping them .

I am interested in a set for my Catacomb.
Mainly the centre. but saying that, the ones inside the target area are bitches to get to, so put me in for a full set too.
Does he make any for 'Meteor' ? they would sell like hot cakes!

You are #3. THe guy who would be making these is doing some checking around.

I'll ask him about Meteor.

#292 6 years ago
Quoted from harbngr:

I might have been too negative. but put me down as well.

Welcome #4

2 weeks later
#294 6 years ago
Quoted from TigerLaw:

My Catacomb is finally here. Any one know what this part is or where it goes?

That is a stand up target face used on Star Gazer and Dragonfist. You do not need it for your Catacomb. They can be bought new and yours is faded. There is no value there.

Looks like HEP did you a nice job.

#299 6 years ago
Quoted from TigerLaw:

Good! I was worried it needed to be installed somewhere and I couldn't figure out where it would go. Ha!
I'm happy its here in the collection. Been a long time. It's a really cool game. I need to read your posts from earlier and figure out the rules.

Let me simplify those rules since I have been playing it for awhile.

There are 4 drop target assemblies: A, B, C, and D.

We will use drop target A; The others will be the same.

PART "A"

Drop A has four inserts colored red, green, blue, and orange. These inserts each light up in a rotating manner. You knock down all three drop targets and whichever color/number is lit when the last target is dropped has a corresponding number in the Bonus/toast section that will light up. When you knock down the three drops the 2nd time, one of two things will happen. If the last target drops when a different color/number is lit you will see its corresponding number light up in the Bonus section. However, if the same color/number insert was lit as the first time then nothing will light up in the Bonus section.

You need to keep attacking Drop Target A until you get all four corresponding inserts lit in the Bonus section. If you are lucky it will only take you four attempts at dropping the drops to get all four lights lit up. However, if you keep hitting insert #1/orange that is all you will get because each light is only good for one hit. There are all luck shots; You cannot plan what you will hit. You are not that fast.

Keep attacking Drop Target A until you get all four lights in the Bonus section lit.

Once you complete Drop A, then move to Drop B and repeat. Then C. Then D. You will now have all 16 lights in the Bonus section lit and get the big points.

PART "B"

You can certainly play the game as I just described, but the proper way to play is to attack the drop assemblies in rotation. When you first start a ball, Drop A will be lit up. Once you get Drop A down then Drop B will light up. After you knock down Drop B then Drop C lights up. After you knock down Drop C then Drop D lights up. After you have knocked down all four drops in rotation the Extra Ball insert lights up in the return lanes. And you now have will have four inserts lit up in the Bonus section.

If you perform PART "A" to perfection and you perform PART "B" to perfection you have played a perfect game. But that is not likely to happen.
Catacomb is fast, the ball can get very wild and it will test your flipper and nudging skills to the max. If you don't know how to nudge you are not going to have a very good time and you will get crappy scores.

PART "C"

This is the bagatelle function. This is the part of Catacomb that turns people off. I sort of look at the bagatelle function as the same thing as a DMD pin's moving the game to the DMD after a ball has drained.

In PART "A" and PART B" I described the prefect game. Since you are playing perfect you do not need the bagatelle part of the game. You already lit all of the lights.

However, since your pinball skills stink and you do not play prefect games, you need the bagatelle function to get all of those lights lit. So, while the service manual and the play field call the 16 lights in the center of the play field the BONUS section, I think the more accurate way is to refer to the Bonus/bagatelle function is that it is a CRUTCH. Since you don't play perfectly you need a CRUTCH to get those other lights.

Sorry to blow everybody's bubble, but basically the BONUS section is the CRUTCH section of the game. If you play perfect, you don't need the BONUS section to get all the lights lit. Only the weaker players need the BONUS which makes it a CRUTCH. And if you don't play perfectly and if the CRUTCH was not there, you would not be able to play the game at all. You would never be able to get any good scores.

Playing the Bagatelle: The bagatelle is not easy to play. There is more hope than skill to play it. But as you get better with your flipper skills you can use some flipper handling tricks to try and get the ball into the chute you need it to go down. Just like the Drop Targets talked above, the more lights that are lit, the more of a challenge you will face in completing bagatelle.

I'll stop here as I already have droned enough. Just keep attacking those four drop target assemblies. If you can do them in rotation it gives you the chance for the extra ball. But playing the drops in rotation is not necessary for points.

Catacomb has a tricky skill shot but you will figure it out. Same for the spinner.

Catacomb demands that your two pop bumpers be in tip top shape. They need to be snappy or you will be playing the crappiest pinball ever made.

Good Luck.

#301 6 years ago
Quoted from OTTOgd:

That target is supposed to go right above the 'Spot 2' on the mid-left of the playfield:

I missed that. Forgot all about it. My humble apologies.

#303 6 years ago
Quoted from Spagano314:

Hello Club Members,
I am going to pick up a Catacomb tonight and I was wondering if anyone had any tips on packing and moving the machine. I have moved many pinball machines, but never a classic stern. I am aware of all the basics like removing the balls and I guess also the bagatelle ball and protecting the backglass, but I don't know if the game folds down on the playfield glass or if the head needs to be removed. I moved a Silverball Mania in that way, which wasn't too bad. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thank You!

It would be like moving a Bally on of the same era. The back box is not hinged and needs to be removed.

2 weeks later
#310 6 years ago
Quoted from PavBall:

Those are simplified? I really can’t figure out how to score well on this game. Also, the bagatelle seems to be on for an arbitrary amount of time, after the first ball you can flip it for easily 20 seconds, each ball after that is fewer flips.

THe bagatelle does have some sort of time limit. I guess you could call it a "hurry up" function. It is not much different than a DMD game in video mode which is also a timed function.

The rules are easier to understand then they are to explain. When you start a game the "A" in left drop target assembly lights up. Knock down those 3 drops and then the next Drop "B" light up. Then "C". Then "D" when you do all four drops in rotation like that the "Extra Ball" in the outlanes lights up and you can try for extra ball. But you do not have to shoot the drops in A-B-C-D rotation to light up lights in the bonus section.

To get all of the lights lit in the bonus section you have to knock down the drops in each assembly four times at a minimum. You don't really start getting many points until you get all 16 lights in the Bonus section lit up.

I think it would be easier for you to understand if you pulled your play field glass and manipulated the drops by hand. Start a game but do not shoot the ball.

Start at Drop Target "A" and activate the targets by hand. Pay attention to how the four lighted numbers 1-6-9-14 rotate their lights as you activate the drop targets. And watch how the lights in the bonus section light up while you are messing with the drop targets. Once you get all of the "A" lights lit up you will notice that 1-6-9-14 lights start rotating very fast; This signals to you that all four lights in the Bonus section are lit. Then move to "B" drop target and repeat. Then "C". Then "D". Pretend you are the super player and do this with just one ball-no drains.

Once you get all 16 lights lit up then shoot the ball and let it drain. And watch points roll up.

Do this and then play a few games. Suffer through the bagatelle part. And then come back and I will try to explain the bagatelle. The bagatelle is not complicated but it takes some skill. Yeah, I said that. While the bagatelle is mostly a crapshoot if you a skilled with flipper techniques you can shift the odds in your favor a little bit. And yes, as you get more lights lit in the bonus section the bagatelle will become more difficult to play.

Pull your play field glass and learn how those lights work. Then come back and we will work through the bagatelle function.

Catacomb is a cool game. If you like fast playing pinball machines it is worth learning.

4 weeks later
#331 6 years ago

Catacomb has made into the Top 100 at #99.

#336 6 years ago
Quoted from TigerLaw:

I need to order the “ball trap thing” (I have no idea what it’s technical name is) that stops the ball from bouncing back into the shooter lane on the bagatelle. Does anyone: (a) know what I call that item so I can stop saying “ball trap thing”, and (b) know the size I need assuming it comes in different sizes?
Thanks in advance.

The Catacomb manual, page 16, lists it under ball guides and roll-overs. part number is: W2-6A-308. Under misc. Parts and Assemblies, there is a Bottom Gate Bracket p/n 1A-1031 and a Top Gate Bracket p/n 1B-1032. So, I guess you could call it a gate which is what it is---a one way gate.

It is a piece of wire that is bent in all sorts of directions like a pretzel. Actually, it is quite an intricate piece of wire. One size only.

#338 6 years ago

Do you or anyone else know if the ralph guy got this wireform made? I'm thinking of buying one of the wire bending tools from Marco and giving this try. I never know when I might need an extra.

#340 6 years ago
Quoted from Ralph67:

I did make 3 , 2 were fine and I sent one to Alexsmendes. see post 109 . Dothedoo posted the measurements on here for me to work from ,
I used the wire bending jig from Marco's. And the kit will come in handy for you in the future i'm sure .
good luck , if you need any extra measurements , just call out
Ralph.

Thanks for replying. My Catacomb has a good wireform and I thought I might to make one or two up. And then sell one for a small fortune to Tigerlaw

What kind of wire did you use and where my I buy some of it?

Thanks.

2 weeks later
#345 6 years ago
Quoted from TigerLaw:

The game finally makes sense to me. I agree with cotton, the rules are easier to understand than to explain. The bagatelle rules are pretty great also.

Do you see why I call the bonus/bagatelle/ toast section a crutch, or helper, for weaker players? Can you imagine trying to score big points without that bagatelle function?

3 weeks later
#351 5 years ago
Quoted from PavBall:

I need to rank it. I won my first ever IFPA event on Friday night thanks to Catacomb. I was dubious about the game before but now I absolutely love it!!

Well, you sure came a long way in a short period of time Grows on you, don't it

2 weeks later
#355 5 years ago
Quoted from TigerLaw:

Bump for the question for the spare bagatelle. If no one has an extra bagatelle hanging around does anyone know how to fabricate the part or have any suggestions? Thanks!

Tigerlaw, I think I have found a wire bending tool that will do the trick. The manufacture is already closed for the day.

Wire bending is a skill I have been wanting to learn. If this tool will do what is needed I can use the wire off of my Catacomb for a model. I'll call the shop in the morning and let you know what I find out.

PM me if you want.

#360 5 years ago
Quoted from pinball_faz:

I saw the original post yesterday looking for info on the gate. I was going to take measurements of mine... I completely forgot that I posted the photos on photobucket... I think that was in RGP days. Boy I regret using PhotoBucket now. That site is a HUGE PITA to work with and if you try to buy the services it's stupid expensive.
If it's too much of a pain using the photos or you need another measurement PM me... I'll try to dig up the originals.
Best of luck,
faz
EDIT: I did not realize, I have the originals on my laptop. I created a new thread with full sized photos:
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/catacomb-bagatelle-ballgate#post-4429172
Spagano314
tigerlaw

Do I assume correctly that one person has made both of the posts? I see the pics of the gate but do not see any pics showing what you used to make the gate. Would you please clarify?

Thanks

#362 5 years ago

I was able to procure some .045 wire and was able to bend one up with some special pliers I have. It worked---sort of. It would keep hanging up and not return to the rest position. As I kept tweaking it the wire broke. I have more wire so I will work on this as my time allows. Maybe we can get there.

I called about a bending tool and left a message. Waiting for return call.

#370 5 years ago
Quoted from charles4400:

You did it Cottonm4!!!
Got my ball gates from you and they look and work like factory! Fits and works perfectly, couldn't be happier.
I know these gates are hard to re-create but however you did it....you did it and it works perfectly. Anyone needing a gate go hit up Cottonm4, you won't be disappointed.
I had a previous replacement from someone but it kept sticking open after awhile (don;t know what it is about these which make it so hard to recreate)...this one works perfect. Thanks!!!

Thanks for the shoutout. I scrapped a few before I saw what I was doing wrong. I play tested them in my own Catacomb before I sent them to you. But I have to admit I was concerned that with differences in machines that they might not work good for you. I'm glad to hear you are up an running.

EDIT: Did my instructions on how to install the ball gate wire help you and make for an easy install?

1 week later
#376 5 years ago
Quoted from Jodester:

I want to thank cottonm4 for the nice job he did on tigerlaw ‘s Catacomb gates. I installed them and it really made a difference with scoring on the game. Great work!

I'm glad to hear they are working for you.

The first two I made were for the scrap bin. Third one I broke was the one for my game. With mine being broke I was super motivated to make them correctly Then I found the groove and made a couple of good ones. Then I scrapped a couple more and figured out my mistakes.

As the song says, "When you're hot you're hot..." I took advantage of the groove I had going and made 12 good ones. The tricks I learned that night about bending wire is going to prove useful in the future.

I can't imagine anyone ever needing this part in the first place, so in case someone else is hurting, I have 7 more I can ship if anybody else has a broken wire gate.

Every one of these has been play tested in my own Catacomb. They all work 100%.

IMG_7106 (resized).JPGIMG_7106 (resized).JPG

1 week later
#382 5 years ago
Quoted from vec-tor:

Numbers first. Letters second.

My opinion is that it would be easier to play with the letters, but how do you know it was numbers first letters second?

#386 5 years ago
Quoted from vec-tor:

Because, I was at the distributors when the game first came out.
I have to admit, I was confused about the bonus numbers for a long time.
I guess Stern got a lot of complaints about the confusion.
So... they simplified the look.

That makes sense. I admit that for appearance purposes that I look of the 16 digits in the Bonus Square. It is a Magic Square (each column and each row and each diagonal total to 34) and the digits fit the Magic Square theme, but...

Digits (resized).pngDigits (resized).png

when your bagatelle target is A - B - C - D ......

Box (resized).pngBox (resized).png

the bagatelle is easier too shoot with the alphabetic Bonus Section. If the "Red A" is not lit is easy to figure out that you need to shoot for Column A as opposed trying to remember that the "Red 6" lies in Column A.

Alphabet (resized).pngAlphabet (resized).png

As Shapeshifter asks: What are those elusive production numbers? In total and of each type of Bonus Section? Will we perhaps discover what happened to Amelia Earhart before Catacomb production numbers surface?

Added over 6 years ago:

" purposes that I look of the 16 digits" should read "purposes that I like the look of the 16 digits"

#390 5 years ago
Quoted from bluespin:

cottonm4 told me that he had taken steel legs and spray painted them a hammertone silver color. You’d need to lightly sand the legs so that the paint will adhere will and stay long term

Yes. I have done that and will do so again. Any painted leg is easy to make a color change on. And while chrome is not the best media for paint adhesion, if you have a crappy old rusted chrome leg you can clean it up with some vinegar, scuff it with some sandpaper, and paint it any color you like. It might peel on you; It might not. But after all, it is just a pinball leg that is not going to be doing anything but sitting there at ground level. If it starts peeling (but I doubt that it will) just slop a little more paint on.

#397 5 years ago
Quoted from Shapeshifter:

Flippers and pop bumpers need re-building - that will make a huge difference to gameplay.

Some pins you can play a half-decent game with a weak pop bumper. Not Catacomb. The pops and those 16 toast lights have to be 100%.

Quoted from Shapeshifter:

4 sets of drop targets need cleaning and disassembling - not looking forward to this at all. Guess you have to remove entirely from game?

Yes. Long shank screwdrivers are nice to have.
Remove the two screws that hold the switches to the drop body first.
Then remove the solenoid coil. (I am in the process of attaching all of my coils with molex connectors).
4 screws attach the drop body to the play field.

With drop body in your hand reinstall the two screws you removed when releasing the switches. Once you get everything apart, take two small pieces of duct tape and tape the screw plate to drop body plate. When going back together, the last thing you will be doing is installing the switches and that is much easier to do when you have switch plate taped to the drop body.

My sequence for removal is not etched in stone. Do it in way comfortable for you. Don't forget to tape that screw plate or your language will deteriorate.

1 week later
#401 5 years ago
Quoted from GKW:

but no one seems interested.

I do know John is on vacation in the states. I'm guessing it is a well needed rest. He has made good on other issues in the past. Wait a couple of weeks then send him a PM.

It is fairly obvious you have alignment problems

#403 5 years ago
Quoted from Classic_Stern:

It is shifted and I figured if I ended up with going with a repro I would offset everything in my lightboard with spacers to compensate. But yea its off. I noticed that a few years ago but the one I had compared to my game was maybe 1/8 of an inch. You could easily move your light board to compensate. I think.

Thats'a great idea ! Some one with moderate wooding skills could make the needed changes. If you move the light board to the right you will need to shave off the right hand side so it will still close. Then ad a thin strip of wood to the left side to compensate for the wood removed in the right side. Then you cut out the displays holes and move them. You would the need to re-glue them and add some support cleats.

#405 5 years ago
Quoted from GKW:

I really hate to do this, but I think the community needs to be aware of a problem with the Greatwich reproduction Catacomb backglasses. When I bought my game several months ago, I knew that I was going to need a backglass. I purchased the last one that Marco had and put it aside, until I got the game working and cleaned up. You can imagine my dismay after I installed it. I have reached out to John and Marco to make this right, but no one seems interested. Just thought everyone should know. In case you don't see it, the artwork is off in several places, most noticeably around the displays and mini playfield.

I never noticed it before but my factory back glass has some of the misalignment on the mini play field. It might not be as pronounced as yours but it is there.

For the misalignment at the displays, instead of doing a bunch of wood work, maybe the Pintech displays that allow you to shift their positions could be a solution.

https://pinside.com/pinball/market/shops/1030-pinitech/01170-5x-led-displays-for-classic-bally-stern-uno

#412 5 years ago
Quoted from Shapeshifter:

Oh, silly question - best way of putting playfield in upright position to work on? Is it meant to slide off the small metal rails and onto the wood supports?

My Catacomb and Dragonfist are the pits. The wooden rails the play field rests on when upright measure approximately 6.5" from the top of the cabinet. On my Seawitch, Big Game, and Nine Ball those same rails measure about 4" from the top of the cabinet. Catacomb and Dragonfist are extremely difficult to lift up and slide over the Z brackets.

I did not want to make permanent changes to the Dragonfist cabinet so I used some 3M super duper black doubleback tape and taped some
1" x 2" boards to the sides of the cabinet to raise the level of the rails. It helps a lot for maneuvering the play field around.

I don't what happened. Maybe Stern got a different cabinet contractor who did not read the prints correctly. I don't know, but it sure is a subpar design.

Bally's design seems so much better.

#418 5 years ago
Quoted from GKW:

Unfortunately, yes.

Well, guess what will start going up in price on Ebay. (sigh).

No other solutions in sight?

#420 5 years ago
Quoted from Ralph67:

On the alignment issues , I see your glass is out of alignment both ways . The area on the right , around the arch ,the arch could be moved slightly to the right , that may look a little better , you would need to unscrew the mounts holding the steel ball guide and redrill the holes into the wooden backbox panel so the far right of the arch and part of the top arch move slightly over to the right . As you can see in the pic there is enough art showing if you did move it across ,

I don't think you want to move the arch or the guide rail. You risk upsetting the play action. I have these same issues and I never even noticed them and now I cannot stop looking at this stuff. I'm not moving anything. I am going to take a strip of frisket that I have been talking about elsewhere and lay a strip down on the right hand side, the outside of the ball guide. Over the top of the frisket I am going to hide the white with a length of black electricians laid on top of the frisket. The black will hide the parts you do not want to see and you can always remove the frisket so nothing is permanent. For the plastic arch across the top I will do the same thing: Black electricians on top of more frisket. If you get tired of the black tape just pull the frisket and the black tape is gone. So everything will be hiding in plain sight.

I also have that small wooden block on my light board.

90f3999a7b283df6d68a7845bd49867e95176137 (resized).jpg90f3999a7b283df6d68a7845bd49867e95176137 (resized).jpg

#421 5 years ago
Quoted from Ralph67:

Yes Best to lift it up and over , and be careful with the corner plastics , Not the greatest idea , ive seen many Meteors that the playfield corners are all broken away from being dragged up and over , not nice

I am fortunate to live where many airplanes are built. As a result, we have a surplus store with all sorts of surplus aluminum. If you can find some aluminum "L" angle (you can buy it online) you can make a dam that protects your corner arch plastics when you raise the play field. There is enough room but you do not want your angle so tall that your play field will not close back down.

IMG_4504 (resized).JPGIMG_4504 (resized).JPG

IMG_4505 (resized).JPGIMG_4505 (resized).JPG

IMG_4506 (resized).JPGIMG_4506 (resized).JPG

#430 5 years ago

Some wiring logic: The B/W wires at the fuse block are the two wires that feed your flipper switches and are not fused. One of the wires comes directly from connector J-1 on the rectifier board. Pin #6 I think. And the other leaves the fuse block to feed the other flipper. The two yellow wires feed all of your solenoid coils for flippers, slings, pops, saucers, etc. Usually, one yellow wire will feed the right hand side of the board and the other will feed the left side.

#432 5 years ago
Quoted from Ralph67:

Good idea Cottonm4 with the ali angle .
Any issues with it moving the playfield to far forward , and jamming against the lock down receiver?

No issues. There is enough forward/aft movement of the play field that fitting into the lockdown receiver slots is not a problem. I did not build it as a plastics protector; It was for another purpose. So you could use an "L" angle with a shorter vertical leg or you could just use a strip of flat metal and screw it to the back side of your wooded front guide rails and make it just high enough to protect your plastics from when you are dragging the play field around.

Here is my discovery and why I used the aluminum angle: When I had my Big Game play field removed for restoration I discovered that the play field was bowed/warped bigtime. The bow was in the form of the front and back of the play field being higher than the center of the play field. I thought I was hosed. But I found out that if I could apply pressure to the front and back of the play field that I could "remove" the bow.

How it works: When I lower the play field into position, the vertical leg of the aluminum angle makes contact with the underside of the wood strip at the back of the cab that makes the rest point for the play field glass. And then the lockdown bar pushes onto the front of the play field and forces the play field to the lockdown receiver. And the cabinet "Z" brackets that support the play field act as pressure points that force the play field into a non-bowed shape and my bowed play field immediately straightens itself out.

(NOTE: It took several attempts at cutting the vertical leg to the right height that would allow the play field to lie down properly. The first attempt at lowering the play field left it suspended in the air. ).

At the back of your cab, if you look at the underside of the piece of wood that your play field glass rests on, you might see, or rather you should see, two small square pieces of rubber glued onto the underside. IMO, these rubber squares are the factory's method of keeping positive pressure on a play field to keep it bowing while inside the cab.

#435 5 years ago
Quoted from Shapeshifter:

Going back to productions numbers - have a look at these.
1980-01 Galaxy Stern SS 4,947
1980-03 Ali Stern SS 2,971
1980-03 Big Game Stern SS 2,713
1980-05 Seawitch Stern SS 2,503
1980-06 Cheetah Stern SS 1,223
1980-06 Quicksilver SS 1,201
1980-08 Flight 2000 SS 6,301
1980-08 Star Gazer Stern SS 869
1980-12 Nine Ball Stern SS 2,279
1981-01 Freefall Stern SS 1,300
1981-03 Lightning Stern SS 2,350
1981-08 Split Second SS
1981-10 Viper Stern SS 438
1981-10 Catacomb Stern SS
1981-11 Dragonfist Stern SS 302
1982-01 Iron MaidenStern SS 1,200
1982-02 Orbitor 1 Stern SS 889
It is clear that Stern was in a massive decline and logic suggests to me anyway, that a production number higher than 1200 seems highly unlikely.
On Pinside there are 54 owners of Quicksilver - production 1201.
There are 53 owners of Catacomb!
So, I think 1200 approx is a fair guess? Doubt we will find out but no way on earth were over 2000 produced.

Nice work. When laid out this way I am inclined to agree.

#437 5 years ago
Quoted from Shapeshifter:

New fuse put in. Blew immediately. Would a short cause this possibly? I can look for broken wiring etc.
Time to ask a friend to visit as probably beyond my technical expertise.
I was able to flip the balls, with dead slings, dead pop bumpers and I can already tell, that this game is going to shoot like no other game I have ever played!

Quoted from Shapeshifter:

New fuse put in. Blew immediately. Would a short cause this possibly? I can look for broken wiring etc.
Time to ask a friend to visit as probably beyond my technical expertise.
I was able to flip the balls, with dead slings, dead pop bumpers and I can already tell, that this game is going to shoot like no other game I have ever played!

Time for some Joe Shadetree mechanic work.

More than likely you have a shorted coil.

The fuse under the play field has the B/W wire that feeds the flippers. The flippers are unfused. The other side of the fuse holder has two yellow wires.These yellow wires feed power to all of the coils.

Disconnect/cut one of the yellow wires at the fuse holder. Fire up a game. If the fuse does not blow, then the problem will be with the other yellow wire. If the fuse does blow then you have problem with a coil on this circuit (yellow wire).

Start by moving the plungers in each coil and feel any coil plunger that may be binding or completely frozen.

This is enough for one post. Try the and come back. I need to look at my manual for a bit.

If you do not know how to solder, this would be a good place to start learning.

#438 5 years ago

The Catacomb manual is a little confusing on a a couple of items and I cannot open mine up to verify.

So..........the yellow wires per the manual

A) show Drop Target "C" and D.T. "B" and the upper sling shot as being on the same string of yellow wire. The upper sling shot is the sling just below D.T. "A".

B) The right hand sling shot and both pop bumpers are on same yellow wire circuit

C) D.T. "A", the outhole that is under the apron, and left sling as being on same yellow wire.

D) left multi-ball hole, the coil in the bagatelle flipper and the outhole at bottom of play field.

THe Joe Shadetree way to do this is have several jumper wires handy. Clip the yellow wires from one coil and jumper them together. This isolates that one coil. Start a game. If you don't blow a fuse you have found the offending coil. Solder the yellow wires back on and do the next coil. Keep doing this until the fuse does not blow.

But you need to buy a thermal circuit breaker at an electronics supply and solder one of your blown fuses to make a resettable circuit breaker or you will spend a fortune in burning up fuses as you chase the problem.

IMG_7477 (resized).JPGIMG_7477 (resized).JPG
IMG_7475 (resized).JPGIMG_7475 (resized).JPG

Now you have to replace the coil but your also need to replace a transistor on your SDU board, too. But one thing at a time.

#440 5 years ago
Quoted from Shapeshifter:

Thanks - that is great info to work with.
Decided that I may as well clean/disassemble drop target banks/pop bumpers and kickers to ensure they are mechanically 100%.
May spot something at the same time. And then try and find the fault...
It also is continuously scoring which probably suggests a closed switch?
Will I definitely need a new transistor? Is there a particular type for this game?
Oh, relating back to the chip on the soundboard post - is there a new replacement sound board for this game?
I think mine is ok so just curious right now.

Continuously scoring is a closed switch. Can be frustrating to find.

Transistor = TP102

Pinsider Barakandi sells sound boards

https://nvram.weebly.com/new-pcbs.html

#442 5 years ago
Quoted from Shapeshifter:

That is nice to know for future proofing if that dreaded chip goes bad!

There is a sound board. There is also an extra speech board with the dreaded chip going bad.

#444 5 years ago

10 times easier to work on if you remove them.

#449 5 years ago
Quoted from Shapeshifter:

35 hours of cleaning! Where does the time go.....
Anyway noticed I am missing a part near the tilt mech.
Anyone have photo, so I can see exactly what is missing?
Thanks

I'll get you some pics in a little while, but your tilt mechanism is complete. I can't speak for Iron Maiden or Viper but Dragonfist is built just like Catacomb. They do not have the rolling ball tilt mechanism.

#452 5 years ago
Quoted from Shapeshifter:

Do other owners have the resistors fitted on their flippers?
If they are not factory will remove.
Otherwise still not sure whether to re-connect..

Those are capacitors. I'll have to open mine up and look .

#453 5 years ago

I don't see any on mine. My Seawitch and Big Game don't have them. I say you can removed them without issue. Perhaps they were added due to something different with the electricity at the location your pin came from.

#458 5 years ago
Quoted from Shapeshifter:

Just discovered leg bolts for classic Stern are different to others I have seen.
Still find it odd that my game has original bolts but think someone swapped the legs to another game....
Going to see what the Bally non ribbed Grey look like as they are 28.5 inches.
Super hard to find a nice original hammered silver set of Stern legs it seems.

I did not know that Stern had it own bolts. Interesting. Bally non-ribbed are 28.5". What were/are classic Sterns supposed to be?

#466 5 years ago
Quoted from brenna98:

You're missing the ball troth. It prevents people from lifting the game.[quoted image]

I disagree. I do not think he is missing the ball trough. Neither my Catacomb or Dragonfist have a ball trough. And they are wired differently than my Big Game, Nine Ball , and Seawitch which have the ball troughs.

My Witch, however, is missing the ball trough and there are two empty screw holes on the backing board from where the trough was once mounted.

If you look his backing board you will see that there are no empty screw holes where a trough would have been located.

And while I cannot swear to it, I have strong belief that those wire caps used to block off the wires look factory.

c50c326fb296bf467b454451fd22b92868df0125 (resized).jpgc50c326fb296bf467b454451fd22b92868df0125 (resized).jpg

#467 5 years ago
Quoted from brenna98:

You're missing the ball troth. It prevents people from lifting the game.[quoted image]

What is your tilt bob unit out of ? It looks like a Bally unit. It does not match any of the Sterns I own. Especially the short tilt bob rod and the formed ring on the tilt bracket.

01dba5cb8c2a996f1019934f122c045226c28c3c (resized).jpg01dba5cb8c2a996f1019934f122c045226c28c3c (resized).jpg

#478 5 years ago
Quoted from Classic_Stern:

Stern had their own legs. Same as ball but the inside was rounded vs. square and their own leg bolts as described. I make sure all of my classic stern's have the right legs and hardware. Just the right thing to do. As with my game. stock as stock is.

Quoted from Ralph67:

Thanks for the heads up , I never knew that

Color me surprised, too.

Is there a source for the correct Stern leg bolts?

#482 5 years ago
Quoted from Shapeshifter:

No player in this stream seemed to get the super bonus?
Is that completing toast on ball 1?
I see it is worth 136000.
Is it possible to 5x this so you could get 680,000 super bonus?

I'm still figuring out how scores on the top end work. But you get the 5X lit and those lights lit and the BIG points start rolling up. It is amazing because you will be beating your brains out and look up and all you have is 80,000 points. And then you start lighting those lights and BIG points start rolling up. I have scored 1.9 million on 3-ball.

3 weeks later
#490 5 years ago
Quoted from Shapeshifter:

Another thing I like about this game ( and mine still ain't working btw ) is that the spinner is a nice clean shot.
I recently played Seawitch and the spinner on that game is super hard to hit and get spinning.
Kind of glad that Catacomb seems like the better game.
Still waiting to play Quicksilver and Stargazer, titles that could go head to head with Catacomb!

Yes, the spinner is a clean shot. And where the ball lands is different every time. It's favorite most frequent movement is to leave the spinner lane, shoot across the play field near "C" drop targets, bounce off a rubber, change direction and head SDTM.

The points are in the drop targets

2 weeks later
#494 5 years ago
Quoted from bluespin:

I’m still looking for a Catacomb if anyone knows of one for sale

It seems like everyone is looking for a Catcomb now.

The more I play mine the better I get and the more fun I have with it. But it regularly kicks my butt.

It is definitely a short ball time pin.

#498 5 years ago
Quoted from bluespin:

If you’d stop telling everyone how great it is, and explaining the complex ruleset...then I could find one...for a reasonable price no less!

Actually, the rule set is very simple and easy to understand. It is the explanation of the ruleset that is complex.

#504 5 years ago
Quoted from Shapeshifter:

Ok, so any clues on what to do?
Re-seat connectors? But which ones?
New capacitors? Not even sure what they do but seen people selling them....

Up top on your MPU are two ribbon cables that travel over to a small sound board on the side of the back box. You can try reseating those ribbon cables. Be careful because it is real easy to plug them back in and be off one pin. Also, one of the ribbons is keyed. Good lighting is nice to have. Pay attention to each connector as you pull it. Mark them if you need to.

If reseating the ribbons does not help, I think new capacitors on your sound board should solve your problem.

#505 5 years ago

All of the back glass lift rails on my old Sterns are rusted badly so I have been busy replacing them with polished stainless steel lift rails that Gatecrasher makes.

The other item I am starting to replace is the white trim strip that goes along the sides of the classic Stern back glasses. I don't know about you but on all of my classic Sterns that white trim strip is just one more piece of plastic turned yellow from years aging and of nicotine exposure.

You cannot buy white trim strips. You can only buy trim strips in black. Some people are happy with the black trim strips. I'm not. I like the white ones but as I said, you cannot buy them.

I have found a solution. Here are 3 pics showing a comparison of the old trim vs. the new.

The old:

IMG_8451 (resized).JPGIMG_8451 (resized).JPG

The new:

IMG_8452 (resized).JPGIMG_8452 (resized).JPG

Side by side:

IMG_8453 (resized).JPGIMG_8453 (resized).JPG

Here are the new white trims on the Star Gazer that I am building.

IMG_8449 (resized).JPGIMG_8449 (resized).JPG
IMG_8450 (resized).JPGIMG_8450 (resized).JPG

Some people like the black trim and I get that. But for those who like the white as I do, here is how you procure some white trim.

You go to Lowes or Home Depot and get a length of white plastic channel that is used as a border for shower walls.

This stuff. It is designed to cover the edge of shower wall material which happens to be 1/8" thick. Your back glass is 1/8" so the fit is perfect. The only thing you have to do is make the short leg of the channel a little shorter than it is; You can leave it as you bought it which is longer than what Stern used but if you have access to a table saw you can trim the short leg to the correct size.

Eight feet of this shower wall trim costs about $3.00. It will yield enough sticks to do both sides and the top of your back glass. $6.00 worth will allow you to put new white trim on three of your Stern back glasses.

IMG_8456 (resized).JPGIMG_8456 (resized).JPG

Now, I need to put this on the other Stern threads.

#518 5 years ago
Quoted from Shenanigander:

I am getting through reading all of the pages of this thread but not there quite yet but I did see someone seems to have had the same issue as me.
My background bass sound cuts in and out at seemingly random switch hits.
Is this normal or do I have a sound issue?
https://www.dropbox.com/s/85i4ez3maxowro3/Cat%20sound.m4a?dl=0

I don't hear anything different than mine. If there is something wrong I don't know about it.

#522 5 years ago
Quoted from Shenanigander:

Links don't seem to be working but the pitch for the voice in the game changes from "normal" to deep.

The first link is working. It sounds like mine. I have never heard another Catacomb and have nothing to compare it to. I just figured this is the way it was supposed to sound.

If you figure it out I would appreciate knowing.

#524 5 years ago
Quoted from Shenanigander:

I will see what I can figure out. I uploaded the sound bytes again. Lets try these links...Listen for the change in pitch on the voice. The lower pitch also sounds a bit slower.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/katjyur1p4tta4k/Cat%20sound%202.0.m4a?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/7l7xebazjkvq5mc/Cat%20sound%203.0.m4a?dl=0
Ok 1st link works but not 2nd. I am smashing my head against the wall now. The clip works on my desktop just fine. The other clip's link works fine. Cant get the 2nd one to work. Must be bed time(*)&&#$(&*_&@#$_)*$_@)(%
OK couldn't give up just yet. Merged both clips into Audacity. This one link should play them both. Fingers crossed!
https://www.dropbox.com/s/qegvmcmkn91wgwz/Cat%20sound%20high%20and%20low.mp3?dl=0

Ok. I hear what you are talking about. Mine sounds like the audio clip with the higher pitch voice. I have no idea what's up. You might try snagging a sound board and a speech board on Ebay. I know that's not much help. I'll put it my "do some digging file" is best I can do.

But your Catacomb is playing OK. Correct?

#527 5 years ago
Quoted from Shenanigander:

Sorry, forgot to reply to this. Yes it is playing great overall. Spent a lot of time tweaking, adjusting and dialing things in. Occasional reset to look into as well as the sound issue. Just ordered new plastic set from CPR
Just installed new thick, glossy printed apron cards! [quoted image]

Where did you get those apron cards? I want some.

#535 5 years ago
Quoted from Shapeshifter:

Getting much closer to a working game!
My issue was a blown transistor...... had to use another off same board for now.
Friend fixed
Any idea where I get one of these?? Or a few really.
And I want to re-set the high scores and looking at manual you press reset button inside coin door.
However if I open coin door power automatically shuts off, so I can't do anything with the door open. Any ideas?[quoted image][quoted image]

1) What are the numbers on the transistor. Your pic is fuzzy.

2) Where does the transistor go? You will probably want some TIP 102s. Depends on where it is located.

Sources:

https://www.greatplainselectronics.com/search.asp

GPE is currently out of stock.

https://www.pinballlife.com/index.php?p=catalog&mode=search&search_in=all&search_str=tip+102

Steve at Pinball Resource stocks them.

Prices are all over the place. Shop wisely.

If the coin door loses power only when opened then it suggests a lose wire connection somewhere. There is a 20 or 24 pin connector along the side of your cabinet that the coin door plugs into. Next time you lose power to the coin door start wriggling all if these wires around aand see if you get connection back.

#539 5 years ago
Quoted from Quench:

Yes. Those coin door power switches are annoying so they're one of the first things I remove if a game I buy has them.
You could probably cable tie something flat over it to keep the switch on if you want.

Nice call on that door switch. Some European safety thing?

#543 5 years ago
Quoted from Shapeshifter:

Slowly going through the manual to set up the game the way I want.
I think using coins, means winning specials feels more like an achievement, so coins it will be.
Bit surprised my game has 3 coin mechs, all with a 1981 date on them.
Going through the menu I noticed total plays.
Is this likely to be from day 1 or can this be re-set like the scores?
Don't want to re-set mine so can't test!
I have 17200 plays. Curious what others have?
Wondering if this is a day 1 figure which I think would indicate a low played game? It would be if it were an EM with this figure.

In 1979, the U.S. started minting a new coin called the Susan B. Anthony dollar. It was poorly designed and not well received by the publc. In 1981, the govt. admitted defeat and quit making the coin. In the U.S., the two outside coin drops were for quarters and the middle drop was for Susan B.

Apparently, Stern figured out the Susan B. was a dud and returned to the two coin drop format used on the other Sterns. My Catacomb has the two coin drop. I"m thinking Stern may have foisted of the remaining three coin drop to the foreign markets. I have no other speculation as to why your Cat has the 3-drop.

I don't have any provisions for total plays on my Sterns. Is this something that was added by an operator? I wish I did have play counters. Is it a mechanical play counter? Or some electronic beast?

#547 5 years ago
Quoted from Shapeshifter:

Interesting re the coins.
As for overall game plays, doesn't every game have this? Diagnostics in the manual.
It's the 11th press of the test button.
I am just playing around with these settings at the moment but didn't want to accidentally re-set my overall plays, if that is possible. [quoted image]

Man, I have rarely messed with that test button. I have not had time. Just taking care of mechanical items on these pins I have bought in last couple of years has been keeping me jumping. My present attitude with the electronics part is that if it is working then just leave it alone.

#549 5 years ago
Quoted from Shapeshifter:

I just set my game up on 3 balls, first replay at 860,000, then 1,280,000 and lastly 1,600,000.

You are not going to get very many replays

Quoted from Shapeshifter:

Every time the high score is beaten it will award 3 credits by 3 cracks of the knocker - nice reward.

That action will not last very long

Quoted from Shapeshifter:

The yellow spot number 2 target - am I right in thinking it will spot one number/letter in the grid? And after that it scores 5000 points but no more numbers/letters awarded?

The yellow target (when lit) will spot the green number 2. Then it just scores points. The two rollover inserts at top spot the 6 and 8. After that they are points only.

The bagatelle mode will also spot you one time per game (maybe per ball--I will need to check that out). So, you are in bagatelle mode and the four lights in front of the drop targets are rotating. Then you shoot and your ball will match whatever light/column was lit as the ball dropped. You can keep on letting the pin auto-rotate and you keep shooting as long as you don't hit the same number twice. However, as you are auto rotating, if you hit a light/number that you already lit up, the pin will spot you another light/number for one time only. If you hit the same light/number a 2nd time your bagatelle mode is over.

You can do all of the above except without auto-rotate. Just hit the left flipper and now you are in control of which colors of lights are lit. Your A-B-C-D Catacomb will make the bagatelle mode easier to figure out which lights to shoot for (instead of which number to shoot for you will be deciding whether to shoot for A-B-C-D. So, for the most part, you will be deciding which color to shoot for while I always have to remember if a red #7 is in column A or B or C or D. And I am assuming the A-B-C-D versions of Catacomb will also do this spotting business so the same spotting rules should apply.

#551 5 years ago
Quoted from Shapeshifter:

I will test all this later. Thanks.
With the left flipper on the bagatelle, does it change the colors all the time, all the way through the game? Or as the grid becomes more complete, the left flipper doesn't change the colors?

The left flipper is always active. The left flipper is a double switch flipper. If it is not rotating the drop target lights check it for cleanliness and adjustment.

#560 5 years ago
Quoted from Shapeshifter:

Bingo!
I didn't notice that the pop bumpers rotate spot 2, 6 and 1 and yes, when lit, they award number/letter in grid.
And the 2 rollovers set the drops at red or yellow.
Thanks.

I'm curious. With your Bonus section being the A-B-C-D type, do those 3 inserts still read as spot 1, spot 6, and spot 2? And they spot A, A, D. ?

And what are the inserts around all four drop targets read? Are they numbers or are they A-B-C-D, as well?

#569 5 years ago
Quoted from Xtraball:

Those are 44 or 47 bulbs. From top to bottom they are:
High Game
Tilt
Shoot Again
Game Over

You beat me to it.

#570 5 years ago
Quoted from TigerLaw:

I just have to say, I love how active this club thread is these days! For a long time there was so little action in here, this game deserves this much attention as it is awesome.

Well, Tiger Law, why don't you come in and lay some Catacomb stuff on us. Tell us how yours is doing. You still like it? Are you ever going to sell it? You are a lawyer. You know how to talk. The more the merrier.

#571 5 years ago
Quoted from Shapeshifter:

These are the spotted letters.
Spot 2 is green D
Spot 1 is yellow A
Spot 6 is red A
[quoted image]

I wish mine was of the A-B-C-D Bonus style. So much easier to shoot for the column instead of trying to figure out which column you need to shoot for for a particular number.

#575 5 years ago
Quoted from TigerLaw:

My Catacomb will be in the HAAG tourney in a few weeks. Looking forward to showing it off. Keith Holbrook will take it away from HAAg to clear coat the playfield.

Keith is going to be a busy man. Shortly, I will be delivering my Quicksilver play field to him for restoration.

#578 5 years ago
Quoted from Shapeshifter:

Getting closer to a fully working game!
I noticed there are a few switch blades broken here - underneath the ball trough. Probably as a result of people pulling out playfield with nowhere to rest it.
Anyway I can't find silver switch blades like these anywhere.
Anyone had to buy these and know where?
Thanks
[quoted image]
[quoted image]

I see the broken pieces you talk of. If all of your wring to the switches looks intact and nothing looks shorted you should be OK to play.

The blades themselves are common. And I have switches galore that use these blades. I just see any others that are stacked this way these ball management switches are stacked.

if you have some old switches laying around, you can pry them apart with a small screwdriver and use the salvage separators/wafers to rebuild your switches.

http://pbresource.com/buttswit.html

PBR also sells blades, fish paper, contacts, separators...everything you need to build your own switches. You will have to ask Steve for the small tubes that hold everything together. You will see all of this way down close to bottom of this link.

http://pbresource.com/pfswitch.htm#oldstern

#582 5 years ago
Quoted from vec-tor:

White-Blue wire/ Red wire do not look like they are hooked up correctly?
Is the Red wire supposed to go to the solder lug?

Quoted from vec-tor:

White-Blue goes to the solder lug.

Nice catch, vec-tor.

I took some pics of mine. THat Blue-White wire needs to with the diode. Where he has a red wire mine is a brown wire and is hard to see.

IMG_8609 (resized).JPGIMG_8609 (resized).JPG

IMG_8619 (resized).JPGIMG_8619 (resized).JPGIMG_8621 (resized).JPGIMG_8621 (resized).JPGIMG_8624 (resized).JPGIMG_8624 (resized).JPG

#587 5 years ago
Quoted from Shapeshifter:

Why 3 switches per letter?

I wondered about this but never took it as far as you just have. I'm thinking that the color of light you select during bagatelle is probably the 4th switch somehow.

Quoted from Shapeshifter:

So, all 12 switches needed to be cleaned and gapped perfectly?

That sounds reasonable.

#591 5 years ago
Quoted from Shapeshifter:

Btw, anyone who says the bagatelle isn't skill based, doesn't understand how it works! Need lightning reactions to change colors at last second!

You have to know how to nudge; I'm learning.

You need a feather touch on that flipper button; I suck at it but I'm getting better.

I'm not fast enough to change the colors at the last second and really need to work on that. And this is where your A-B-C-D play field will really give you an advantage, IMO.

You caught on fast. It is so much more than just shooting the ball.

#595 5 years ago
Quoted from Shenanigander:

Starting to get better at the bagatelle game as well. I usually pick a color that I have none of or the least of and keep flipping till i see that the ball is going to land in a column I already hit then hit the left flipper fast to change the color. Is that your guys strategy?

First round I get one of each color. That is a sure thing. After that the crap shoot starts. Column D can be easy sometimes if you have a light touch. A hard hit and some nudging gets Column A. Sometimes I will keep rotating the colors and other times I try to fill one color and move on. I have not shot to fill a specific column. Many times I keep the flipper activated for the next ball. With the flipper still up you can tap the flipper and bounce the ball and get D relatively easily. There is skill but a whole lotta luck involved. I need to improve my tap hitting on the flipper. I'm not fast enough to rotate the colors when the ball is moving; That would be a nice skill to have.

I concentrate on continued improvement on my game and try to keep knocking those drop targets. Drops are your big points. I'm getting better but still have such a long way to go.

#604 5 years ago
Quoted from Shapeshifter:

I finally have my game pretty much playing 100%! Flipper rebuild, waxed playfield and man, this game is brutal.
Fantastic game though.
Been experimenting and realized it's possible to get the D on the bagatelle by a very soft flip - not easy but again, there is way more skill in the bagatelle than the critics acknowledge.
I agree that you are given too much on ball 1 but on balls 2 and 3 , it evens out.
This has to be in top 3 of Classic Sterns?
I mean, seriously what is better?
I have been after a Quicksilver, based on reputation and art, but does it play better than Catacomb?
Stargazer - I get it's the game most people want but it looks easy in comparison to Catacomb!

Good to hear that you are up and running.

Yes, it is brutal. I would not to meet it in the arcade.

The bagatelle is a blessing and a curse. From all I have read on pinside, the bagatelle part is what turns people off. They say it messes with their rhythm. I can understand. I sort of view it as the solid state version of a DMD video mode.

Once I understood what the bagatelle as for and how it worked, Catacomb went to the top for me. But it took some playing and getting better at it to really start liking it. Balls that used to get by my flippers don't get past anymore so every once in awhile I get one of those killers balls that makes you understand what you like about playing a super fast pinball machine.

#609 5 years ago
Quoted from Shapeshifter:

Here is an interesting Roger Sharpe 1981 review of Catacomb. [quoted image][quoted image][quoted image]

Thanks for posting that article. He pretty much nails it on the last page when he is talking about the average player. It took a some play on this game for it to grow on me. As you said, it is brutal. It took me awhile to get good enough to enjoy it.

I like my Seawitch. I really do. And I am probably in a minority, but if I had to choose between Seawitch and Catacomb, Catacomb would stay. They don't come around often but when you get one of those killer balls it is an adrenaline rush.

Screen Shot 2018-10-15 at 10.37.01 AM (resized).pngScreen Shot 2018-10-15 at 10.37.01 AM (resized).png

Screen Shot 2018-10-15 at 10.37.27 AM (resized).pngScreen Shot 2018-10-15 at 10.37.27 AM (resized).png

#611 5 years ago
Quoted from Pinphila:

Hey Club - I have a lead on one of these. Totally non-working, wont power on. Whats a fair price on this in current shapes. It looks to be in good shape. Thanks!

A picture is worth 1000 words. What does the play field look like? etc.

#616 5 years ago
Quoted from Pinphila:

Backglass and playfield look great. Ill post a pic later. Prior owner has had since 1989.

It is getting easier to assign value.

A repro back glass will cost you $300.00. A set of repro plastics cost $149.00. If plastics and back glass are good you now have $450.00 imaginary money to play with. If CPR ever makes a Catacomb play field figure it will cost $700.00. Now you have $1150.00 imaginary money to play with.

Is the cabinet nice? If not, you will have to get a custom mix of the green paint. I don't know? $50.00 maybe. Pinball Pimp stencils will set you back another $150.00. Now you have $1300.00 imaginary money in your pocket.

Not working? A brand spanking new MPU is $200.00. An SDU is about the same price.

Nice ones are selling for around $1600.00-$2000.00.

A pin that went private when only 7-8 years old sound like a dream find----if the owner did not beat the crap out of it.

#628 5 years ago
Quoted from Pinphila:

Haven’t gotten it yet. I was trying to figure the value. It’s nonworming and won’t even turn on. I have never had one of these and this era of game is not my expertise so I trying to determine if this was worth $500 in current shape or $1000?

It does not take too much to get these working. It could be just a fuse. Or a loose connection. At worst, the MPU, or SDU. Both of those will cost around $400.00 as a pair. You will have to spend some shopping it.

Everything looks nice. I don't see an operator's sticker on the apron.

We all want to get something as cheap as possible, but knowing what I had to pay for mine and how far I had to drive to get it and how hard they are to find, I'd be all over that one for $1000.00 if that is what it took.

But.....I like this era of games. I have a love affair going with my Sterns. And this game plays to my taste. Your mileage may differ. But if you didn't like it you probably will not have any trouble selling it.

#635 5 years ago

While sorting thru some paperwork I came across some helpful operator notes on a Catacomb speech board schematic.

SB #1 (resized).jpgSB #1 (resized).jpg

Says if capacitor C 27, 470pf, is bad you will have fast talking. Every once in awhile, my Catacomb starts sounding like one of those hyper cram-all-the-words-in commercials so I will need to replace this.
SB #2 (resized).pngSB #2 (resized).png

The hand drawn blue star directs to see note on other side. It says "sound board must have jumper from J-3 to R-23, R-24 and R-25." I have located R-23 and R-25 on the drawing, but have not located R-24 yet.

I have not removed my speech board to see if these jumpers have been done. I can provide better pics if anybody needs them.

SB #4 (resized).pngSB #4 (resized).png

SB #5 (resized).pngSB #5 (resized).png

#636 5 years ago

Here is the paper that is stapled to the inside of cab if anyone needs it. This is full size at one sheet of copier paper.

Cab paper (resized).jpgCab paper (resized).jpg

#639 5 years ago
Quoted from Shenanigander:

You actually have to use a soldering iron and heat up the metal post and wiggle it out. You have do the same when installing the post to the new plastic. I just did Eight Ball Deluxe plastics. What a bitch. There were maybe 40 - 50 metal posts to do. Catacomb will be a since compared

I did some Bally bells awhile back. It was easy. Once I got the right tight-fitting hole drilled in the plastic replacements all I had to do was a slow squeeze in my bench vise.

I'm doing some for Cheetah now. They suck the wind. The Stern bells are not as strong and robust as the Bally units. I'll have to try the soldering iron trick.

#642 5 years ago
Quoted from Shenanigander:

You actually have to use a soldering iron and heat up the metal post and wiggle it out. You have do the same when installing the post to the new plastic. I just did Eight Ball Deluxe plastics. What a bitch. There were maybe 40 - 50 metal posts to do. Catacomb will be a cinch compared

Quoted from cottonm4:

I did some Bally bells awhile back. It was easy. Once I got the right tight-fitting hole drilled in the plastic replacements all I had to do was a slow squeeze in my bench vise.
I'm doing some for Cheetah now. They suck the wind. The Stern bells are not as strong and robust as the Bally units. I'll have to try the soldering iron trick.

Quoted from bluespin:

I did this for my Spectrum. Place the soldering iron tip inside the bottom of the bell (widest part) and touch the inside of the narrow end of the bell, moving the top around every five seconds or so. That’ll give it a nice even Heat and make it easier to insert inside the plastic. It’ll still be a snug fit

There are other ways to defeat the bells.

I had to cheat yesterday and employ the Gorilla glue. I made the holes a little bit larger; Not so large that the bell would fall out of the hole; I still had to press it in the hole, but before I seated the bell to the plastic I placed a toothpick's worth of Gorilla glue between the bell and the plastic. They are mounted solid and will never come off again.

You could also install #6 carriage bolts from the under side of the play field as the pinball mfrs. did for the sling shot posts and other high impact areas. All you do is install the carriage bolts, load the bells from the top, then place your plastics on top and lock it all in with a nut and washer.

If your bells are a rusted mess, you can paint them or do away with them completely. Do the carriage bolt part as just mentioned and use nylon bushings instead of the bells. Nylon bushings are available in all shapes and sizes so you would have to find the right size to order.

https://www.amazon.com/Nylon-Spacer-Bushings-257-Length/dp/B005C0L6EC/ref=sr_1_13
13&keywords=nylon+bushing

Or you can buy nylon rod and make your own. You need a band saw and a drill press to make this option viable.

https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1

1 week later
#646 5 years ago
Quoted from Shapeshifter:

My far left outlane ( 5000 points ) switch is just dead.
Cleaned, and makes great contact. Nothing.
Wires are not loose on switch. Re-flowed.
Any ideas where to go next??!
Thanks

On the road. Will advise in day or so.

#647 5 years ago

This is the switch matrix. There are rows 10 thru 17. There are columns ST0-A thru ST4-E.

The left out lane is row 11, column C. Row 11 wire color is Grey. Column C wire color is White/ Blue.

The Grey wire is common to: bottom pop, left outlane, the #1 spot at the upper roll over wire and the middle outhole. The middle outhole is that triple switch that sits under the apron---the switches on your Cat that were crushed.

The white/blue wire is common to: outhole (reflex)--when the ball drains this is the first wire it lands on, L. outlane, Rt. outlane, L return lane, rt. return lane, drop target Set B (left, right, and middle.

Study the matrix. It is probably completely confusing to you. Keep studying. Eventually, a light bulb will go on in your head and the switch matrix will no longer be a mystery to you.

Lift your play field and trace the wires to your left outlane that I lined out above. Look at them, touch them.

Find an item on the matrix yourself and then go see what that item looks like on your play field.

Study this stuff for awhile. You should start having some questions. Ask the questions and I will try to answer them.

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#651 5 years ago
Quoted from Jr99svt:

Nice Club You Have Here, Mind If i Join?

Well, seeing that you already own a Catacomb, it looks like we don't have a choice

How long have you had your Catacomb?

#655 5 years ago
Quoted from Jr99svt:

I have owned this one for about 14-15 years. Traded a Bally Playboy for it.

I had a Bally Playboy for awhile.

You made a great trade !

#657 5 years ago
Quoted from Shenanigander:

Finishing touches on my Catacomb. Backbox plastics replaced and Stern Electronics keychain added. Just have to get my sound working properly now! Replacing the metal bells was pretty easy afterall using the soldering iron trick. Always a little nerve racking taking a soldering iron to brand new plastics though!
[quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image]

This is a good place to point out that the wide piece of plastic does not have a broken corner in the lower right. That is a designed bevel cut so the ball will not slam into a sharp corner; Rather the ball would be deflected and continue on to the four columns.

#664 5 years ago
Quoted from Shapeshifter:

Nice!
I just emailed CPR to ask if they would consider selling backbox only plastics.
They would sell a lot.

Quoted from Shenanigander:

They will sell just the backbox plastics? That is sweet! Get them to toss in the Stern keychain plastic as well!

Quoted from Shapeshifter:

Waiting for reply so no idea yet.

Quoted from GKW:

Wouldn't it be possible to recreate one, using 3D technology? I didn't know that CPR would sell only 1 or two plastics, instead of a set. I did see on their website that they have the complete plastic set and a pre-order for the playfield.

Nobody knows if CPR will sell just 1 or 2 plastics. The question was asked of CPR. The asker is waiting for a reply. This is how rumors get started.

1 month later
#668 5 years ago

How many Catacombs were made?

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Recently, a Catacomb was sold on Pinside’s marketplace. The asking price was over $5,000.00 and the ad drew more than the usual amount of, “ is this ad even real at this price?” kind of comments.

As usual, since Catacomb has no available production numbers, guesses were all over the place with regards to how many were made. One pinball site says there were 3900 produced. One pinsider suggested 1000 units; another says 1200.
However, no one ever tells us of which method of “Scientific Wild Ass Guess” that they are using to arrive at the number.

The best we have so far is from the individual who is tracking the serial number spread, which seems to support a production run in the 900s.

I am going to go on record here and say there were less than 1000 Catacombs produced. My pick is 900 or less Catacombs were produced.

And everything else that follows is me attempting to justify that 900 number.

To get to this 900 number I had to make several heroic assumptions. I could easily manipulate my data to say there were 1500 produced. So, the 900 number I offer up is not etched in stone. Mine is just another Scientific Wild Ass Guess tossed into the mix.

The key number I am looking for to make my assumptions is “number of units produced per day”. This number will be referred to extensively.

If you don’t like what I have done, you are more than welcome to offer and support your own conclusions.

There is no way I can do this with two 3-sentence paragraphs and hope to accomplish anything. If you get bored easily, or suffer from ADD, or Reading 101 is a challenge for you, you should probably pass this post on by. You have been warned.

The parameters:

*The sales and production data I am using has come from Pinside. All of it. If Pinside’s data is suspect, then naturally my conclusions are suspect. I get that.

· Any sales information I use comes from Pinside’s archived ads. I realize there are Ebay sales. I realize there are Craigslist ads. I realize there all kinds local type ads in the pinball sales universe. But Pinside is the only one that is readily traceable and it is good enough for this exercise.

· I have made a spread sheet which I will be including in my analysis in an effort to help support my position on Catacomb production numbers.

· As mentioned above, the key number is “how many units produced per day”.

· Stern’s production numbers are easy to follow with the Pinside data. But it starts fuzzing out when Stern gets to Lightning. I’ll say it again: Stern’s production data starts going nutty when Lightning hits the production line.

· We will be camping out with Lightning quite a bit as I move forward.

· This exercise is concerned only with that production sweet spot that started with Meteor in September 1979 and ended with Dragonfist in January 1982. I did not use Cue with its production of 6 units and I did not use Orbitor with its run in February 1981.

Below are the my methods used for this exercise:

** I did not account for any holidays. All months are established as using the standard Monday-Friday workweek.

You should notice that any two months grouped together resulted in 43 working days, except for Galaxy where its two months added up to 45 working days. Leap year, perhaps?

************

I added Magic to this exercise as sort of a control number.

Magic was produced in August 1979. I assume that production started on August 1 and ended on August 31. There were 22 working days in August 1979.

Stern produced 2,466 units of Magic. Divide 22 working days into 2,466 units and the daily production count is 112.

So, Stern produced 112 units of Magic per day for the month of August 1979.

OK. So how did I determine that Magic production stopped on August 31?

Meteor production started in September 1979. Using my assumptions, Meteor production started on Sept. 1. Therefore, Magic production ended on August 31.
*************************

Meteor production started on Sept. 1, 1979. Galaxy production started on January 1, 1980

Therefore, using my methodology, Meteor production stopped on December 31, 1979.

Stern produced 8,362 Meteors from Sept. 1, 1979 through December 31, 1979. This is the highest production number of any of the classic Sterns produced.

Stern produced Meteors at the rate of 97 units per day.

Continuing on, Stern produced 114 units per day of Galaxies over a 45 day period. Total Galaxies: 5130

In March, 1980, Stern changed its game and produced both Ali and Big Game over a 43 day period. Did Stern produce Ali first and then move on to Big Game? Or did Stern have two production lines producing both pins simultaneously?
We have no way of knowing, but over a 43 day period, Stern produced 5,684 units for a production rate of 132 units per day.

Seawitch was a standalone run. 2,503 units were produced over 22 days for a daily run of 114 units.

Next is Cheetah and Quicksilver. Production fell off of a cliff with these two. 1223 Cheetahs were produced and 1201 Quicksilvers were produced. Total production over a 43 day period dropped to 56 units per day ! And I am like, “what the hell happened to cause such precipitous decline?”

After Cheetah and Quicksilver, here comes Star Gazer with 869 units produced over a 43 days period. The daily production number for Star Gazer is a paltry 20 units per day.

But then, like a Phoenix rising from the ashes, Flight 2000 comes on strong with 6, 301 units produced over a 43 day period. And the daily run number is back up there at 147 units per day.

So, what happened? Did management have real strong “it makes my pants feel warm” feelings about F2K and cop an attitude with Cheetah, Quicksilver, and Star Gazer? As in, “quit wasting time on Cheetah, Quicksilver, and Star Gazer. F2K is going to one hot pin and we need to be getting it out the door---PRONTO !! Get a move on!

Is that what happened to 3 now highly coveted pins today? I don’t know, but these 4 pins sure ran a strange production schedule.

Nine Ball comes in at 2,279 units produced in 23 days. Daily run backs off to 99.

Free Fall falls down the chute with only 1300 units produced over a 43 day period. Daily run is 30 units per day; Not too much better than Star Gazer at 20 units per day.

But Lightning is where it gets real interesting. Lightning starts up on March 1st, 1981 and runs until July 31, 1981.

2,350 Lightnings were produced over a 5 month period. That equals 109 days.

And this is where many heroic assumptions come into play.

· Did Stern produce 2,350 units in the month of March? That would be 22 working days and a daily run rate of 106 units per day.

· Stern is not going to have a bunch of line workers standing around for 4 months smelling their fingers, so if you assume all Lightnings were produced in 22 days, then you also have to assume that Stern laid everybody off for 4 months.

But laying your people off like that can be production suicide. All your laid off workers will go find other jobs and when you need them to come back you will find many will be gone forever. And now you have no experienced people to build your product.

My thinking leans toward Stern stretching out the Lightning production over a 5 month period and letting all employees go except for a few choice employees. In this manner, when it is time to ramp production, you have a core of experienced employees in place so you can at least produce some units until you manage to rehire some old help and get some new help trained.

That is the way I am playing this. That Stern kept a skeleton production crew on board as it was trying to stay alive.

So, that is Lighting. 5 months at a daily run rate of 22 units per day.

And this brings us to Split Second and Catacomb. Lightning production, as I have shown, was lackluster when compared to earlier production. So, why are the only two pinball machines in Stern’s catalog that have no production numbers happen to be the first two pins produced after that stretched Lightning run? Did Stern’s record keeper get laid off with the stretched Lightning run and not get called back to keep records for SS and Cat?
Who knows? But whatever happened with Lightning has to have had something to do with no production numbers for SS and Cat. I can’t prove anything, or course, but I feel it in my bones.

Split Second is easy to play with in regards to coming up with a production number. But you have to assume some things. Depending on your assumptions, you can make SS a 500-unit pin or a 5000-unit pin.

Split Second was produced over 43 day period. I will assume this the same (assumed) skeleton crew that produced 22 units of Lightning per day kept that same pace with SS.
So, Split Second was produced over a 43 day period and the daily run rate was same as Lightning at 22 units per day.

22 * 43 = 946 units of Split Second produced. You cannot prove it; you cannot disprove it. If you wish to assume Stern able able to go balls out on SS, and then assume 56 units per day were produced. 43 * 56 = 2,408. Does anybody here think 2,408 units of SS were produced? I sure don’t. I will remain with my assumptions and say less that 1000 Split Seconds were produced.

And this...... brings us to Catacomb. The other classic Stern of which we have no idea how many were made. I stated at the beginning of my exercise that approximately 900 units of Catacomb were produced. I am almost there.

Let’s go. Catacomb is not as easy to plug in numbers as SS was. The reason is: From October 1, 1981 through December 31,1981, Stern produced three pinball machines.

This production schedule amounts to 66 days for 3 pins. Catacomb, Iron Maiden, and Viper.

Iron Maiden and Viper are known quantities. 1200 Iron Maidens were produced and 438 Vipers were produced.

The question is: How was production allocated? To make it easy, I am going to assume that Iron Maiden and Viper were produced from Nov. 1 to Dec. 31. That is 43 working days for a daily run of 38 units.

This leaves Catacomb only for the month of October. That’s 22 working days. Do you want to assume the same run rate of 38 units per like Viper? If you go with a 38 daily run rate then you are left with 22 working days @ 38 units per day, or 836 units of Catacomb produced.

Someone has a serial number spread, which I think is closer to 900.

Now that I am finished, I will say somewhere between 800-900 units of Catacomb were produced.

If you do not like my numbers all you have to do is change the assumptions on how many days production times how many units per day. And those two numbers can be anything you want them to be.

#670 5 years ago

how do y'all like my custom pop bumper caps?

I have not got them lit up, yet.

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#684 5 years ago
Quoted from WarLokBlackOut:

Does anyone of you guys know what the exact diameter of the ball in the back box is supposed to be? And is the one way gate unit at the top of the plunger lane for sale somewhere?
Thanks in advance.

I can make you a one way gate

EDIT: I thought you were talking about the gate in the bagatelle. Sorry.

#686 5 years ago
Quoted from TigerLaw:

Where did you get the new plastics? Thanks.

CPR sells a complete set.

2 weeks later
#691 5 years ago
Quoted from bluespin:

That’s crazy. The 1st, 2nd and 4th player displays are missing digits.


Interesting bidding action. Bidder 1***s comes in with $1500.00 bid on Jan 7 which reveals bidder 1***k had already bid $1500.00 on Jan. 15.

Bidder 1***s comes back and starts walking it up and does not take 1***k out until $3000.00 is top bid at 9:19 am Jan 18. 7 hours later, 1***k comes back and tops up at $3050.00. It will be interesting to see if 1***s comes back for more. Or maybe someone else will swoop in for a last second snipe.

It's a lot of money. No doubt.

take aways:

1) corner of back box chipped. That is an easy fix.
2) back box face painted black. Lowes has a color chip that is a 99% match for the lizard green color. Not too hard to correct the black face. you can get a sample size of paint mixed up for $4.00.
3) Legs are black. Another easy fix.
4) displays have issues. Throw in an Alltek for $200.00

5) The left side of the back box looks like it is not sitting correctly on the cab. Right side looks OK. ?????

pluses

1) crappy video shows the pin starts a game with out issues. is playing good and fast. Can't tell about feature lights.
2) play field looks nice but dirty. Maybe some light touch up needed. Inserts are probably cupped, but can't tell.
3) Except for broken back box corner, the cabinet looks nice and clean.
4) Coin door looks brand new.
5) back glass looks nice. Don't know if it is a translite, a repro, or original.
6) Apron looks nice and clean

It is a nice looking pin. It is not a beater. It's a good player. Two bidders are in at the $3000.00 mark. My guess is the losing bidder is still going to be on the hunt.

It is too rich for my blood but after I watched a Cyclopes sell at auction to a telephone bidder for $5200.00 not much surprises me.

#693 5 years ago
Quoted from Pinphila:

What is the paint color?

I'll have to find the paint chip I have laying around. I don't live too far from Lowes. I can get you the paint number in a couple of days.

#695 5 years ago
Quoted from cottonm4:

Interesting bidding action. Bidder 1***s comes in with $1500.00 bid on Jan 7 which reveals bidder 1***k had already bid $1500.00 on Jan. 15.
Bidder 1***s comes back and starts walking it up and does not take 1***k out until $3000.00 is top bid at 9:19 am Jan 18. 7 hours later, 1***k comes back and tops up at $3050.00. It will be interesting to see if 1***s comes back for more. Or maybe someone else will swoop in for a last second snipe.
It's a lot of money. No doubt.

Bidder 1***s got taken out by a new bidder. 1***m has introduced himself with a $3100.00 bid at 8.40pm. But that was not enough as he had to top himself with a bid of #3,300.00 at 8:41pm. But that did last long. Bidder 1***k seems determined and comes back with a higher bid of $3452.00. But 1***m has come back and, it this time, is high bidder at $3500.00.

1***k and 1***s both started out at $1500.00. Both have made multiple bids into the $3,000.00 price range. They are serious. 1***m opened at $3100.00 and is up to $3500.00.

16 hours left to go. We have a horse race working with 3 serious bidders.

Makes me wish I had two Catacombs so I could sell one.

#698 5 years ago

Vec-tor, how did you take what I said in post #691 about watching a Cyclopes sell for $5200.00 and make it look like Pinphila said it instead of me?

.

This is my last sentence in #691

Screen Shot 2019-01-21 at 9.48.31 AM (resized).pngScreen Shot 2019-01-21 at 9.48.31 AM (resized).png

In next post #692, Pinphila replies to my post #691 with a question.

Screen Shot 2019-01-21 at 9.50.25 AM (resized).pngScreen Shot 2019-01-21 at 9.50.25 AM (resized).png

And then in #696 you reply to my post about the Cyclopes but your post makes it look that what I said is being said by Pinphila

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How you do that?

#703 5 years ago
Quoted from rollitover:

Recent Catacomb on ebay
just sold for $3550.
A pretty penny indeed.

Bidder 1***k bid $3452.00

Bidder 1***m bid $3500.00

Bidder 1***s won at $3550.00

That means two jilted lovers in the $3500 range are still looking.

So, if you are going to sell your Catacomb, what kind of price will you ask?

#705 5 years ago
Quoted from Pinphila:

What is the paint color?

It is a close race between ECOSYSTEM-HGSW1242 and Green Verge HGSW1241.

Green Verge looks a little dark next to my paint in the flesh but looks better in the pics. I think is is too dark.
Ecosystem looks better in the flesh and a little bit light in the pics.

Part of the difference is the cabinet semi-gloss and the chip is flat.

Actually, a color somewhere between these two would be perfect.

This is a Lowes paint chip.

If you are located near a large paint and body shop supply store they might have the equipment to make you an order and put it in spray can. It's not cheap. It cost me $20.00 a can for a color I needed to spray. There were no guarantees that the mix would be a perfect match so I had to pay for a 2nd can to get to color dialed in.

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#713 5 years ago
Quoted from Pinphila:

Thank you! I will try both of these and see what happens.

I hope you come back and post your findings.

Thank you.

#715 5 years ago
Quoted from Pinphila:

I will. I just emailed a company about making the colors in Aerosols.

One last caution:

Your Catacomb might be a different shade than mine. Different batch of paint, etc. Different living conditions. Mine does not look like it was ever in a smoky bar.

#717 5 years ago
Quoted from Pinphila:

I have 5175
So, I was triaging the game tonight and have the following issues:
1) No controlled lamps. ( used to work but now no )
2) No speech. I do have the other sounds. Ill check the dip switches but I assume it is on.
Where to begin? I am a bally williams guy so these sterns are new to me.
Thanks!

Check the 10amp fuse on the rectifier board. The one on the left. Blown 10 amp fuse = no feature lights.

Di you ever have speech working?

#726 5 years ago
Quoted from Pinphila:

Awesome! Thanks guys! I dont know how I missed it.

I can't imagine how you missed it, either. There are only 75 websites to buy your pin parts from. None of them will have everything you need. Prices are all over the place.

So, now you are walking the virtual mall picking up one item in this store. And another item in that store. In one store, the item you want is on the first shelf at eye level. At the next store, what you are looking for is all the way to the back and way up on top where you can barely see it. One store calls it a bracket while another calls it a mount.

If you do get lucky and find a store that lists everything you are looking for you will see in the small print that three items are out of stock and offer no idea id they will ever be restocked.

I don't know how you missed it, either.

3 weeks later
#730 5 years ago
Quoted from spiroagnew:

I've been away from the hobby for a bit, but did anyone else notice that Catacomb playfields are being offered in the "measuring interest" stage on the CPR website? I've emailed indicating I'd be interested in one.
https://classicplayfields.com/preorders/

Yes, but thanks for high lighting it. I expressed my interest some time back. Now, the question would be be do you want the 1 through 16 numbered model, or do you want the A-B-C-D model?

2 months later
#756 4 years ago

Several months ago, I asked if any Catacomb owners would be interested in a having #555 lamp board made for Catacomb. The gentleman who made the 555 lamp boards for Big Game, Cheetah, Nine Ball, and Meteor has asked me if I am still interested in doing this for my Catacomb. I hope this means that he is ready to take on this project.

I have had more than a few headaches those 16 Bonus lights in the center and they work so well on my Big Game and Nine Ball that I am most definitely still interested.

This is one he made for Cheetah.

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Speak up. Raise your hands if a lamp board for your Catacomb would be of interest to you.

#758 4 years ago

You are #2 then. but I don't know how he will be taking orders. I'll email him and tell him whysnow is a buyer.

He is telling me he only ordered 5 sets for this trip. He has not said if there will be a 2nd trip.

This leaves three sets left.

There is a total of 6 boards. The one for the 16 lights in the center. One each for each drop target. And one more that Im not sure of but I think it will be for the 3 lights at the spinner.

#760 4 years ago

I sent him an email.

By a pinside count, 2 sets are left.

#762 4 years ago

Redketchup, you are #4

One set left.

I am advising him that these sets are spoken for but I have not head back from him yet.

#764 4 years ago

# 5 is spoken for.

Price: The best I can tell you is somewhere around $55.00-$60.00 USD.

#766 4 years ago

I have sent all 4 of you PMs on how to contact the seller with your requests to buy.

Also, he said he will get more boards the next time he makes an order, so nobody is going to be shut out who wants a set.

2 months later
#781 4 years ago
Quoted from eyeamred2u:

FYI, I make the bagatelle wire ball gate. I have an original that is used for the measurements. If interested, send a pm.
Ken[quoted image]

Nice job.

I made some of these a year ago.

Quoted from cottonm4:

I'm glad to hear they are working for you.
The first two I made were for the scrap bin. Third one I broke was the one for my game. With mine being broke I was super motivated to make them correctly Then I found the groove and made a couple of good ones. Then I scrapped a couple more and figured out my mistakes.
As the song says, "When you're hot you're hot..." I took advantage of the groove I had going and made 12 good ones. The tricks I learned that night about bending wire is going to prove useful in the future.
I can't imagine anyone ever needing this part in the first place, so in case someone else is hurting, I have 7 more I can ship if anybody else has a broken wire gate.
Every one of these has been play tested in my own Catacomb. They all work 100%.
[quoted image]

I think I sold about 30 of them. I had no idea that they were such a demand item. My next challenge is to make the two gate support pieces for another Catacomb owner who has no way to mount the gate.

#792 4 years ago
Quoted from hocuslocus:

what is this bagatelle wire supposed to look like installed?
I got something there, but It looks pretty ghetto.

Can you take a picture of what you have, please?

What you have is the wire as shown in the pic several posts up.

There are two pieces of thin stainless steel angles in the back box the wire fits in and rotates.

#794 4 years ago
Quoted from hocuslocus:

yup, think I need to find the gate part as well. I'll check the part numbers hopefully it's something generic.
I'm in the middle of a shadow rebuild right now, but that different gate picture got me wondering about mine.
[quoted image][quoted image]

You do not have the correct parts. Someone took a generic ball gate and planted it there. If that wire was bent in a little bit different from what it is you could use it OK. The whole purpose off the gate is to keep the bagatelle ball from going back down the shooter lane. Your wire looks too low to the back box surface to prevent the ball from traveling backwards. Look closely where your bracket is located. You will see two holes. There also two other holes below your red post. Those four holes are the correct mounting holes for the brackets your are missing.

You will not find any generic brackets to do what you need.

The proper bracket is two pieces of 90 degree angle metal that accepts the type of bent wire showed several posts back.

I have been thinking on this for awhile and I think I can make the proper brackets but I am trying to find the right metal that will work for this job.

#797 4 years ago
Quoted from hocuslocus:

oh wow, I just checked out IPDB. yeah mine is completely wrong. what happens to these things, do they break or something?
I'm guessing that gate wasn't used on any other game.

Quoted from hocuslocus:

anyone have side pics of these brackets, all I've found is top down.
Did they use the same type of metal as they did for the other brackets (that aluminum pot metal stuff)?
I can try to make something, doubt it's gonna be pretty though.

I don't know what happens to them. My guess is that an idiot with a screwdriver removed them, then forgot about them, then sold the pin.

I honestly have not looked at the metal that close. I do think it is stainless steel but I will need to remove one and have a closer look. You could probably get a couple of gates like what you have and do some bending. How they look when finished is not important unless you are selling them. You will not see them when they are installed.

You will need to match drill two holes in the upright part of the bracket. They need to be perfectly match for position location. Then one of the holes needs to be filed out with a slot.

They will take a little bit of tooling and time. If I made a pair I would have to charge you $50.00. This is why I have not messed with it.

I'll get you some pics this afternoon.

#798 4 years ago
Quoted from hocuslocus:

anyone have side pics of these brackets, all I've found is top down.
Did they use the same type of metal as they did for the other brackets (that aluminum pot metal stuff)?
I can try to make something, doubt it's gonna be pretty though.

Quoted from cottonm4:

I don't know what happens to them. My guess is that an idiot with a screwdriver removed them, then forgot about them, then sold the pin.
I honestly have not looked at the metal that close. I do think it is stainless steel but I will need to remove one and have a closer look. You could probably get a couple of gates like what you have and do some bending. How they look when finished is not important unless you are selling them. You will not see them when they are installed.
You will need to match drill two holes in the upright part of the bracket. They need to be perfectly match for position location. Then one of the holes needs to be filed out with a slot.
They will take a little bit of tooling and time. If I made a pair I would have to charge you $50.00. This is why I have not messed with it.
I'll get you some pics this afternoon.

I had a little bit of free time. Here are some pics. My memory is refreshed; I know why I have not tried to make these. This would be a job for Mantis. But I only know of you and one other Catacomb owner that needs these.

They are made of stainless steel with a very hard temper. You will not build anything of this quality with a pair of pliers and a bench vise. The loop on the left side of the gate wire is a counterweight to close the gate after the ball passes.

IMG_1749 (resized).JPGIMG_1749 (resized).JPG

IMG_1746 (resized).JPGIMG_1746 (resized).JPG

This piece has two slots. This is for installation proposes. You twist the wire gate into the two slots. Then you install the other end of the gate into the hole in the opposite bracket and screw that bracket to the pin.

IMG_1747 (resized).JPGIMG_1747 (resized).JPG

So, the questions are:

1) Could you just make two angle brackets, each with a matched drill hole and install those? Probably. But then you are going to have to make a real long gate wire and the extra weight of the wire might affect how it works with the ball.

EDIT: I'll call the bracket with the one hole (not the two slots) the lower bracket. That lower bracket acts as the stop for the gate wire. Any different dimensions you use to build these brackets will require you to address how you bend your gate wire.

#799 4 years ago
Quoted from cottonm4:

I had a little bit of free time. Here are some pics. My memory is refreshed; I know why I have not tried to make these. This would be a job for Mantis. But I only know of you and one other Catacomb owner that needs these.
They are made of stainless steel with a very hard temper. You will not build anything of this quality with a pair of pliers and a bench vise. The loop on the left side of the gate wire is a counterweight to close the gate after the ball passes.
[quoted image]
[quoted image]
This piece has two slots. This is for installation proposes. You twist the wire gate into the two slots. Then you install the other end of the gate into the hole in the opposite bracket and screw that bracket to the pin.
[quoted image]
So, the questions are:
1) Could you just make two angle brackets, each with a matched drill hole and install those? Probably. But then you are going to have to make a real long gate wire and the extra weight of the wire might affect how it works with the ball.
EDIT: I'll call the bracket with the one hole (not the two slots) the lower bracket. That lower bracket acts as the stop for the gate wire. Any different dimensions you use to build these brackets will require you to address how you bend your gate wire.

Here are some pics with the gate wire installed.

This pic shows the gate being installed. It is installed at an angle into the two slots. Then it is twisted into position and the lower bracket is installed.

IMG_1750 (resized).JPGIMG_1750 (resized).JPG

This is the complete assembly installed. The loop in the gate wire which is the counter weight nests against the upper bracket when it is at rest.

IMG_1752 (resized).JPGIMG_1752 (resized).JPG

This is the activated position. The ball pushes through and rotates the gate wire 90 degrees ( see position of counterweight loop). After the ball passes, the counterweight, along with weight of the wire pulls the gate back into closed position. This all happens in the blink of and eye. This gate is what keeps to bagatelle ball from running back down the chute.

The 90 degree rotating movement of the gate wire is checked by the back glass. With the back glass removed, I could continue to rotate the gate another 90 degrees for a full 180 degree rotation.

IMG_1756 (resized).JPGIMG_1756 (resized).JPG

And this pic shows 180 degrees of rotation.

IMG_1754 (resized).JPGIMG_1754 (resized).JPG

#801 4 years ago

You might be able to use the chrome bracket you have and redesign the wire and make something that would work. I think I could design a wire to work with this bracket that would work and it would get rid of that horrendous spring you have. I think.

77244d44961b06df77481c7e25c93666c11b909c (resized).jpg77244d44961b06df77481c7e25c93666c11b909c (resized).jpg
#807 4 years ago
Quoted from hocuslocus:

I'm gonna try to mess with it a little after I finish this shadow project. Where do you get that piano wire from? is it a certain gauge

I got lucky and found my wire at a local model aircraft hobby shop. Google " model airplane piano wire". Several options will pop up. Gauge .047" works good as you can bend it with needle nose pliers or some modified duck bill pliers. You will want to use pieces of wire that are long enough so that you have some leverage to help bend the wire.

1 week later
#810 4 years ago
Quoted from vec-tor:

Note: I have found that you do not have to move any support brackets to the B.B. one way gate.
If you turn the wire gate to the extreme opposite position it will "unhook" from the top bracket.
Those, allowing one to remove wire gate from bottom support bracket.
Reverse the order to reattach the one-way wire gate.

I just tried that out. Works great. Nice discovery.

2 months later
#822 4 years ago
Quoted from Quench:

Unfortunately clear details on this are not listed in the schematics :-/
Any chance you or someone else can comment on what the wire colors are at the solenoid driver board connector J2 pin 15 (left bottom most wire), and also the wire color at the rectifier board in the cabinet at J3 pin 13?

i will be home later today and will be able to have a look on my Catacomb

#823 4 years ago
Quoted from Quench:

Unfortunately clear details on this are not listed in the schematics :-/
Any chance you or someone else can comment on what the wire colors are at the solenoid driver board connector J2 pin 15 (left bottom most wire), and also the wire color at the rectifier board in the cabinet at J3 pin 13?

OK.

Here is the short answer:

1) Rectifier J3-13 is a dark blue/white wire that travels to the flipper coil on the displays board. From the coil, the Blu/W wire and now also a Black wire travel up to the relay. (Dark Blue/W can also be Light Blue/ White wire instead).

2) From the right hand flipper (see more below about the confusion below) a Red/Yellow pairs up with the Blu/W wire at the rectifier board and travels to the relay. These two wires are joined into a connector (this is the connector the questioner cannot find the female on his Catacomb.)

2) At the relay, a Red/White wire travels to SDU J2-15.

That's it. That is your circuit.

===========================

Pin J3-13 is a dark blue wire with white stripe. See yellow tie wrap at the connector. While I did not do a continuity check, I am reasonably certain this Blu-W wire travels to the flipper coil on the displays/bagatelle board. From the coil this Blu/W wire travels up to the relay. There is also a black wire that travels from the coil to the relay.

IMG_2499 (resized).JPGIMG_2499 (resized).JPG

The relay has 4 wires attached. The four wire colors are:

1) The familiar Dark Blue/White wire from the flipper coil is located to the left side of the relay to the rear.

2) The black wire located at the flipper coil is located to the right side of the relay.

IMG_2514 (resized).JPGIMG_2514 (resized).JPG

2) A Red/white wire is positioned in front of dark blue wire. There is a diode between these two wires; The banded side of the diode faces the dark blue wire. This R/W wire travels to SDU J2-15. This has been verified with a continuity check.

3) There is also a red/yellow wire at the relay.

IMG_2502 (resized).JPGIMG_2502 (resized).JPG

The dark blue/white wire and red/yellow wire pair off and travels across the displays board to a 2-pin connector that I am holding between thumb and forefinger.

IMG_2504 (resized).JPGIMG_2504 (resized).JPG

The other side of the 2-pin connector carries the same Blu/W wire and Red/Y wire into the play field harness. Traveling down this harness, the Blu/W wire terminates at J3-13 on the rectifier board where we started out at.

IMG_2512 (resized).JPGIMG_2512 (resized).JPG

While the Blu/W wire terminates at J3-13, the Red/Y wire connects to a red wire that travels to the right flipper. This is as far as I can trace the Red/Y wire. I am going to have to cut some tie wraps so I can see what this action is because I see a Red/Y wire on the left flipper, as well.

IMG_2515 (resized).JPGIMG_2515 (resized).JPG

#827 4 years ago
Quoted from hochiming:

cottonm4 you are now my friend!
I can`t more happy! Tha catacomb now playyyyyy
you are a geniusss.
Thank`s.
I love pinballsssss!!!
If you came to visit Argentina let me know.
Kind regards
Matin

Thank you for letting me know you have resolution. But where was the connector that you could not find?

Quoted from Quench:

cottonm4, thanks kindly for going into detail. You got hochiming up and running
Question, the red-yellow wire that connects to a red wire near the rectifier board, that red wire then goes to the right flipper button switch right? i.e. not back up to the playfield at the right flipper mech onto a second switch at the EOS switch stack?
One of these days I have to scan my Catacomb manual in high res and replace the poor quality one in IPDB. And maybe add clearer details on this to the schematics.

Quench, I could not have done this without your insights. Early on, I noticed that Catacomb had an extra wire at A2-J3-13 but I have never had time to properly trace it. And I do not think I would have ever found the R/W wire at SDU 2-15. So, my hat is off to you. But I am proud I was able to help another Catacomb come to life.

I am going to have to cut several tie wraps so I can physically trace the R/Y wire properly. I did not understand why the R/Y color was not maintained at that connector and why it turned to red. I hope to be able to check this tonight. All I can say at this time is the R/Y wire turns into a red wire and travels to the right flipper. At the right flipper, there is another red wire that travels back toward the left flipper, but the left flipper has a R/Y wire attached. The puzzle is hidden inside those tie wraps.

#828 4 years ago
Quoted from hochiming:

I love pinballsssss!!!
If you came to visit Argentina let me know.
Kind regards
Matin

Matin, I will probably never travel outside of the US. But I have always wanted to see the countries in South America. But yours is a nice offer and you have a nice collection so I may have to do something about this

#832 4 years ago

This one sold on Pinside. Asking price was $5500.00. Final sales price was not listed but the ad went up on 12-20-18 and went down on 12-27-18.

https://pinside.com/pinball/market/classifieds/archive/72768

#836 4 years ago
Quoted from Quench:

That's ok, I don't want you cutting cable ties in your game.
The right flipper button has a red wire as Stern standard going to the solenoid driver board flipper relay - in Catacomb it likely also goes to the relay on the backbox playfiled via the thick red-yellow wire.
Looking at the left flipper button switch linked below, it's a double stack switch with a thin red-yellow wire that's used for advance in bagatelle mode.
https://images.pinside.com/9/b6/ed/9b6edcfa55a915accc90ff1310288a067f9ce684.jpg
The schematics lists the left flipper advance switch as being on the playfield instead of the cabinet flipper button.

Quoted from TheLaw:

He'll just put some new ones one

I have 3 sacks of small tie wraps at 1000 count per bag. I'm rich in tie wraps. I have to see it for myself. They are coming off. It might be a couple of days, but touchy-feely is always better than a drawing. With all doubts removed, I like your idea of making a new drawing for IPDB.org.

#837 4 years ago
Quoted from Quench:

That's ok, I don't want you cutting cable ties in your game.
The right flipper button has a red wire as Stern standard going to the solenoid driver board flipper relay - in Catacomb it likely also goes to the relay on the backbox playfiled via the thick red-yellow wire.
Looking at the left flipper button switch linked below, it's a double stack switch with a thin red-yellow wire that's used for advance in bagatelle mode.
https://images.pinside.com/9/b6/ed/9b6edcfa55a915accc90ff1310288a067f9ce684.jpg
The schematics lists the left flipper advance switch as being on the playfield instead of the cabinet flipper button.

Progress is slow. I cut some cable ties and ran the red wire. It comes across from the right hand flipper and proceeds to travel back up toward the back box in the cabinet wire harness. I'll have to go back into the back box to see where it terminates. There are a lot of red wires in the back box I'll have to do a continuity check.

I have to leave the house for awhile. Will look later.

IMG_2557 (resized).JPGIMG_2557 (resized).JPG

IMG_2556 (resized).JPGIMG_2556 (resized).JPG

#838 4 years ago
Quoted from Quench:

That's ok, I don't want you cutting cable ties in your game.
The right flipper button has a red wire as Stern standard going to the solenoid driver board flipper relay - in Catacomb it likely also goes to the relay on the backbox playfiled via the thick red-yellow wire.
Looking at the left flipper button switch linked below, it's a double stack switch with a thin red-yellow wire that's used for advance in bagatelle mode.
https://images.pinside.com/9/b6/ed/9b6edcfa55a915accc90ff1310288a067f9ce684.jpg
The schematics lists the left flipper advance switch as being on the playfield instead of the cabinet flipper button.

Quoted from cottonm4:

Progress is slow. I cut some cable ties and ran the red wire. It comes across from the right hand flipper and proceeds to travel back up toward the back box in the cabinet wire harness. I'll have to go back into the back box to see where it terminates. There are a lot of red wires in the back box I'll have to do a continuity check.
I have to leave the house for awhile. Will look later.
[quoted image]
[quoted image]

Recap: The Red/yellow wire at the bagatelle relay travels down into the play field harness. At a point near the rectifier board, the R/Y wire terminates into a connector with a Red wire on the other side. This red wire travels to the right flipper; From the right flipper, the Red wire goes back into the backbox and terminates at SDU J2-1. If I could draw this is would be >>>>bagatelle relay<<<<----Red/Yellow wire---connector---red wire---right flipper---red wire---SDU J2-1.

Still left to do is run the red/yellow wire from the left flipper. Somehow, I think this flipper R/Y wire has some way of connecting to the (previously referenced) R/Y wire at the bagatelle relay but I get no continuity from the left flipper to the relay.

#841 4 years ago
Quoted from TheLaw:

Right flipper single stack, left double

Yes.

Quoted from Quench:

Thankyou!
Is the right flipper button switch a single or double switch stack?
The red-yellow wire on the left flipper buttons second stacked switch should go to the tilt mech, start button and coin chute switches - ultimately it should come from the MPU board at J3 pin 2. What is the color of the other wire on that left flipper switch associated with the red-yelow wire? Is it just a yellow wire that goes to the MPU board at J3 pin 16?
That second stacked left flipper button switch should essentially be the advance switch for bagatelle mode and is part of the switch matrix.

Yes, indeedy Boss ! The run to the tilt and start button confused me. That R/Y wire terminates at MPU J3-2.

The color of the other wire on the 2nd flipper stack is orange/red wire. The red hi-lights on this orange wire are of the small 1/4" inch "chunks" of red as opposed to an orange wire with one long red accent stripe. A continuity check confirms this wire terminates at MPU A4-J3-16. What I don't know is if this is a straight run from Point A to Point B of if something else is in the circuit for this wire.
==================================

This entire bagatelle circuit needs its own complete breakout drawing page to show where everything is at.
==================================================

NOTE: I am going to have to study the switch matrix. The color of my wiring does not seem to match what is on the drawing; The wiring on my pin does not match the drawing callouts. The coin door drawing calls for I-7 to be MPU A4-J3-16 to be (Y) yellow but mine is the O/R from 2nd stack from the left flipper wire. The other side of this circuit at A4-J3-2 is the correct R/Y wire we already have talked.

My Big Game has four wires that do not match drawing call outs. Where the drawing calls for a Purple wire, my wire is Orange/Green. Purple/Blue is actually Purple/White. Grey/Red is actually Tan-Orange. So anything is possible with Stern and its wiring.

Quoted from Quench:

That second stacked left flipper button switch should essentially be the advance switch for bagatelle mode and is part of the switch matrix.

Yes, this is the advance switch for bagatelle. I just have not been able to find it on the switch matrix. Can you point me to the correct matrix address, please? I see L. Flipper button at address STO A and I7 for an orange wire and a White /Red wire. I don't see any other Left flipper button addresses.

#843 4 years ago
Quoted from TheLaw:

So my question is, can /should you use some clear on the backboard /bagatelle?
Had to touch up a bit and just wondering. My first thought is always yes.

Why? What did you have to touch up? All you have is a plastic ball floating by once in awhile. The color paint that is there is not fragile. I don't understand your thoughts for clear in this area.

#846 4 years ago
Quoted from Quench:

If you're up for it, at some point pictures of the wire colors going to the bagatelle switches and lamps will help.

I have thought about drawing it up. It would not be hard. I'll have to include it in my "items up next" queue. Pinball is a great retirement hobby. I am bust all of the time

#854 4 years ago
Quoted from TigerLaw:

I really need to buy some new plastics. Can someone help me with this one? Game is unplayable with this broken piece.
[quoted image][quoted image]

That broken plastic can be fixed. You will probably see the repair.

I have an idea on what can be done. Send me a PM.

#857 4 years ago
Quoted from TigerLaw:

Thanks guys! We were hosting an IFPA tourney yesterday at our house; what a bummer for this issue to pop up. We are hosting another tourney today at my office. I’m going to look into this tonight.
cottonm4 , you are incredibly helpful as always when it comes to this title and other classic Sterns. Thank you for your friendship.

Look, that broken plastic does not see all that much action. Go to Home Depot or Lowes. Get some Gorilla brand clear tape. it is heavy duty stuff and not the cheapest. Tape some of this tough stuff on both sides of the plastic and you should be able to play OK. If you want something a little tougher still, tape a pop sickle stick or tongue depressor and place over the top of your already "repaired" plastic to make it even stronger.

A box of tongue depressors at Dollar General for a dollar. You will have a hard time finding these anywhere else.

gorilla-specialty-anti-slip-tape-60270-64_1000 (resized).jpggorilla-specialty-anti-slip-tape-60270-64_1000 (resized).jpg

1 week later
#859 4 years ago

Thanks for posting. I just had to buy one.

#861 4 years ago

For the record, I have observed that the number 5 that is part of drop target “D” is not the correct color. It is pink when it should dark blue to match the number 5 that sits in the bonus/toast area.

Please tell me that the other Catacomb play fields have the 5 as the correct blue color.

Edit: I also notice the number 8 at the “B” drop target is pink, as well.

#863 4 years ago
Quoted from Shapeshifter:

Oh dear that looks like a bad error.
Guessing they have sometime taken color from the 5X and accidentally put it on those 2 inserts as they should be blue.

Yes. I hope the entire inventory does not contain this error.

#872 4 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

If you are remaking them, then I would like to cancel on the one with incorrect inserts.

Same here.

#877 4 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

That is fine with me.
Just keep my payment and ship me the new/ correct insert one when they come out. I am in no rush as I have like 5 swaps in front of catacomb

Same here. Keep my payment alive. I am in no rush, either.

I did send a request to the CPR website as Mike instructed but just covering my bases here.

#885 4 years ago
Quoted from CPR:

the sample we had here was like the one you see in the pictures so that's the way we made em.

That is so strange that the sample someone sent to you had this error with two inserts. How? Was this play field a prototype or reject from Stern in the 80s? Or possibly, someone, at one time or another, replaced the correct inserts with two pink inserts that were silk screened correctly?

It is an interesting puzzle with no answer.

#886 4 years ago
Quoted from harbngr:

Will a few more playfields be made as well? I would Like one of the corrected ones. I had signed up on the standby list, but never received an email.

Somebody posted about a wishlist at CPR for a Catacomb play field. I signed up as interested but did not get an email either. And it was only when CPR made the post here that I was able to buy.

#888 4 years ago

I borrowed this pic from CPR. That Catacomb play fields really pops in this pic, IMO.

I suppose if anybody was on the fence about buying a Catacomb, this would be the time to step up.

December2019banner (resized).jpgDecember2019banner (resized).jpg

#891 4 years ago
Quoted from Redketchup:

In this case, your purple insert are blue insert fade with time... i had a seawitch playfeild with all the kind of shade of purple where they are supposed to be blue..

My Seawitch inserts faded like that. I placed blue LEDs under those inserts and that helps a lot.

#894 4 years ago
Quoted from Methos:

I missed getting one, and need it.
Anyone plan on canceling their order or don't need it after all?
Please hit me up.
thanks.

Why don't you contact CPR and see if they can get you listed in the replacement production run? Hell, they are in business to sell play fields. Selling more is always merrier.

Go for it. The worst CPR can do is say "no". But time is of the essence.

https://classicplayfields.com/contact-us/

2 weeks later
#896 4 years ago

OK boys and girls, I have a problem with the LED lights I added to Catacomb.

I'm talking about these LED boards you get from Pinball Replacement Parts.

https://pinballreplacementparts.com/products/stern-catacombs-set-of-lamp-boards-to-replace-old-metal-strips-and-panels

IMG_2742 (resized).jpgIMG_2742 (resized).jpg

I have installed these LED kits on Big Game. There were no problems. I made the swap, turned on the pin and enjoyed all of the nice bright LEDs.

Same for Nine Ball. I have other problems with Nine Ball but making this LED conversion was never a problem.

Catacomb is another story. I don't know what's up.

I installed the LED boards on Catacomb several months ago and have not been able to play it since.

Here is what is happening: All of my feature lights were working before I made the swap. After the swap I am having all sorts of strange behavior.

During attract mode the feature lights are supposed to be in constant blinking motion.

On drop target "A", the numbers "1", "6", "14", and "9 are supposed to light up in rotation. 1,6,and 14 work. # 9 is dead. The bulb is good. So, I have 3 lights working correctly in rotation during attract mode. The letter "A" lights up correctly.

IMG_2737 (resized).jpgIMG_2737 (resized).jpg

Drop target "B" is working as it should. All 4 lights light up in rotation. The letter "B' lights up correctly.

IMG_2740 (resized).jpgIMG_2740 (resized).jpg

Drop target "C" has problems. All four lights light up but they stay on solid. They do not light up in rotation as they are supposed to.

IMG_2735 (resized).jpgIMG_2735 (resized).jpg

Drop target "D" is the opposite of drop "C".

The letter "D" lights up but none of the four lights turn on at all.

IMG_2734 (resized).jpgIMG_2734 (resized).jpg

The Toast/Bonus section is a mixed bag.

Four lights do not light up at all.
Two lights light up but stay on solid. They do do not blink.
The remaining ten lights are working normally.

IMG_2738 (resized).jpgIMG_2738 (resized).jpg

I was powering my lights with the Stern LDA with the Seigecraft LED adaptors but for trouble shooting, I replaced the Stern board with an Alltek LDA. There was no change with the lights.

The game itself plays OK; As well it can be played with no proper lighting signals.

If anybody has any idea why two previous LED conversions went A-OK and the third conversion has gone bonkers with only half of the lights working properly, I would really appreciate any ideas on where to look.

Thanks

#898 4 years ago
Quoted from Jr99svt:

if there were no issues before the 555 board swaps, you may have cross wired 2 wires on a board or 2.

I appreciate your thoughts. I just wish it was that easy to find the problem. All it amounts to is there are 32 trigger wires, (one for each lamp) and one common wire for all. The worst that could happen is that I get a couple of wires crossed and a 7 lights up when a 10 should be lighting up and a 10 lights when it should be the 7 lighting up.

I did a test and replaced some of the LEDs with some 555 incandescents. That made no change. Lights that are not coming on, lights that are not blinking, or the lights that are staying on all of the time did not change their behavior when I installed the incandescents.

This pin has a speech board that is connected to the lamp driver board. I'm thinking I will disconnect the speech board and see if that helps.

1 week later
#901 4 years ago
Quoted from TheLaw:

Did you try jumping the common connections on the board? From one solder point to the next with a bare wire?

Lawman, I will answer this to-be-continued story a little later.

#902 4 years ago

Some of you are aware that I have been making the wire gates for the bagatelle section of the Catacomb pin. Several months ago I had a pinsider contact me about the mounting brackets for the gate.

Two days ago, I had another pinsider who is restoring a Catacomb contact me about those same mounting brackets (see pics).

Screen Shot 2020-01-23 at 6.26.22 PM (resized).pngScreen Shot 2020-01-23 at 6.26.22 PM (resized).png

I am not equipped for any serious sheet metal bending. This is something that Kerry at Mantis would have the right equipment to make these.

The problem is making only 1 or 2 sets would cost a fortune. The other problem is that they will not break or wear out. They are made of stainless steel. So if your Catacomb has these brackets then you are set.

What I am inquiring about is if there is anybody else out there who would like to have a set for a wild ass guess of just in case.

I would really like to be able to help these two people out because, the pin is not very playable if the gate assembly is not installed.

Is there anybody else needing or wanting a set of these?

#904 4 years ago
Quoted from Jr99svt:

Im in for 2 sets

As you can see, this request for people wanting the gate mounting brackets is rather thin. So, I need to ask how much you would pay pair of a pair?

They look like something you should be able to buy for $25-$30 dollars for a set. But my uneducated guess is that you would be paying at least $60.00 per set. Maybe higher.

Would you still be interested at $60.00 per set? What about $80.00 per set?

If no one would be interested at these nose bleed prices, there is not much point in me trying to pursue this any farther.

#908 4 years ago

That is 4 sets. And one person has not spoken up yet.

So 5 sets so far.

I'll contact Kerry and if he is even interested.

#909 4 years ago

Someone new has PMed me with a request for 2 sets.

That makes 7.

If anybody this is interested would make a post on this thread it would be much appreciated.

Thanks

#911 4 years ago
Quoted from Methos:

I am in for one set.

I have been waiting for you. #8.

I'll reach out to Kerry tomorrow and try to see if I can get some idea of pricing.

#913 4 years ago
Quoted from getadam:

Count me in too, Cotton.

Number 9. Number 9. Number 9.

#916 4 years ago
Quoted from Jr99svt:

do you mean Me? im still in for 2

No. I linked my reply to Methos, who was the late arrival. You are still in for 2.

#918 4 years ago
Quoted from Methos:

Was on vacation, sorry for the late response.

Being on vacation is nothing to be sorry about. No apologies needed.

#919 4 years ago

I have emailed a request for pricing on 10 sets.

Now we wait.

#920 4 years ago
Quoted from cottonm4:

I have emailed a request for pricing on 10 sets.
Now we wait.

Kerry has responded to my request. I am not interested in sending him my set of mounts as samples. Right now, they have become too valuable to place in the mail. If they were to get lost then I would be in the same problem we are trying to solve.

I am going to dust off my drawing skills and work up some isometric drawings with measurements and hope he will be able to work with my drawings. If quality drawings will not work for him then I will have to ship.

What I can tell you is if he can do them they will be laser cut, which means nice smooth edges.

Please be patient. On my way to the print shop to get some quality drawing paper.

2 weeks later
#922 4 years ago

Only one last long shot item i could suggest is maybe something is wrong with the speaker. ???

Sorry i don't have something better.

#937 4 years ago
Quoted from Quench:

Tried a brand new 25k logarithmic pot and I think the owner also tried one from another Stern. No luck.
Thanks for the suggestions so far.
Only significant things not changed are transformer/rectifier board and wiring harness.

Thanks, that's what I'm trying to get to the bottom of.
It's just like what happens in this video. We first noticed it with the game just sitting idle in game mode that the background sounds would intermittently drop volume - the owner noticed he could trigger it by hitting switches and scoring:

When i get home i will listen to your video on my computer equipped with good speakers. I am currently listening on my cell phone and it sounds just like my Catacomb.

It will be very late this afternoon or tomorrow before will be back at my computer.

#941 4 years ago
Quoted from cottonm4:

When i get home i will listen to your video on my computer equipped with good speakers. I am currently listening on my cell phone and it sounds just like my Catacomb.
It will be very late this afternoon or tomorrow before will be back at my computer.

I have listened on the better set of speakers. I am not hearing anything different from mine. I don't know. May be I have been thinking it is a feature.

I know I wish I could make that "growling" sound go away. I have got used to it but would prefer it was not there.

#943 4 years ago
Quoted from Quench:

Which effect is the growling sound?

I don't know what you would call it. It is that low pitch sound that I think is supposed to represent the chained monster.

#947 4 years ago
Quoted from Jr99svt:

i dont mind the back round sounds, i kinda like them. but id pay good $ for a modern speech module to replace the synth voice

I have learned to live with that sound. And agree majorly for modern speech.

#950 4 years ago
Quoted from Quench:

I might be oldskool but I couldn't imagine having modern speech on these old games.

You have a point.

2 months later
#953 4 years ago

Catacomb has 4 drop target assembles. They are A, B, C and D.

Here is the wiring diagram for the Catacomb solenoids

Drop target "A" is highlighted in blue

Drop..........."B" is highlighted in pink.

Drop..........."C" is hi lighted in green.

Where in the hell is Drop target "D"?

If I am blind, kick me in the butt and tell me so.

But I am not seeing drop "D" on this solenoids diagram. All four drops are represented on the switch diagram, but drop "D" appears to be missing on this solenoid diagram.

Anybody any ideas? Thanks.

CAT wiring (resized).jpegCAT wiring (resized).jpeg

#955 4 years ago

Physically tracing the wire is not a problem. All 4 drop bank solenoid coils feed from the drop banks to the SDU J5. I'm just trying to figure out why Drop D did not make the drawing.

I am starting to have some suspicions that the solenoids drawing was taken from an earlier Stern and changed to reflect the requirements for Catacomb. Perhaps the job was assigned to a new engineer who overlooked that Catacomb needed an added drop bank added. And then the engineering inspector did not catch the discrepancy.

#958 4 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

Any hear any status update on the correct insert CPR Pfs?
I had one of the original misprints. They kept it and refunded saying that they would redo them for next run
I never heard follow up yet.

I asked a couple of weeks ago. Was told they are completed and waiting for the clear coat guy who was staying away from work due to the virus.

2 weeks later
#961 3 years ago

Help.

Several months ago I installed some of those 555 light boards that pinballreplacementparts.com has been making for some of the Classic Sterns. I had installed these boards onto my Big Game and my Nine Ball without issue. On Catacomb, this install turned into a disaster. Some of the lights worked and some didn't.

Between living and working on my other pins, as time allowed, I would keep trying to fix these troublesome lights with no luck.

Yesterday, the lights magically fixed themselves. Don't ask me. I don't have a clue. All of the lights are now working 100%.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

But I still have a problem. None of my switches on the ST3 Row D will work.

The "C" drop target assembly, the rollover button, the stand up target, and the inlane rollover switches across the top of the play field all share a common white/yellow wire. I get continuity from the W/Y wire at all of the different switch points. All points get continuity all the way to the MPU A4-J4-pin4. But even with continuity checking out, none of the switches will work; This also includes the switches for column "C" in the back box bagatelle.

The set up: I have 3 Alltek boards installed: MPU, SDU, and LDA. Thinking that maybe something had broken on my Alltek MPU, I swapped in another Alltek MPU. The problem persists. So, I will assume my problem is not with the Alltek MPU.

As noted, my feature lights issues have magically fixed themselves.

Once I get this switch problem for ST3. Row D resolved my Catacomb will be 100%.

I don't know where to look. Any thoughts and ideas are much much much appreciated.

The line hi lighted in blue represents the switches that do not work. Why are they not working?

Thanks in advance.

CAT wiring (resized).jpegCAT wiring (resized).jpeg

#963 3 years ago
Quoted from vec-tor:

I would probe A4J2-4 (W-Y) if pulsing then test playfield switches.
You could have a break on the first switch daisy chain.

Electricity is not my strongest suit. I know how to check continuity. On a car, I can get around with a DMM a little bit. But on a pinball machine I am a little lost. What do you mean by "pulsing"?

#966 3 years ago
Quoted from vec-tor:

if you have a logic probe you would see a L.E.D. pulsing.
If you have an oscilloscope you would see a square wave form.
eg _______+5volt ___
---- 0volt--_________0 volt.

I guess I need to buy a logic probe.

Quoted from vec-tor:

I would check the pin in the connector... It could have failed.

I checked and replaced the connector pin thinking that could be the problem.

Now, I have gone farther. I have removed the factory wire from the connector wafer and have installed a jump wire and have jumped from the connector to jumping the W/Y wire at the non-working drop assembly. I still get nothing. And I can't think that 2 Alltek MPUs would be bad.

I am really pulling my hair out.

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IMG_3540 (resized).JPGIMG_3540 (resized).JPG

#968 3 years ago
Quoted from vec-tor:

If you have an ohm meter, I would test continuity.
clip one end to the open wire and the other to the playfield switches.
If the meter buzzes/beeps then the wiring is O.K.
If not, then you have something open.
If the wires have continuity, then the problem is
the CPU board.

Nothing makes any sense. It has to be something simple but I am at a loss.

I have continuity at all switch points and all the way up to the MPU. The meter beeps. I was hoping for a broken connection/an open wire. But all switch points make the meter beep.

I have double checked this and triple checked this. I have all of my D.T. assemblies molexed for easy removal so I had to make would sure I have continuity.

And this is the 2nd Alltek MPU/CPU that this action is happening with. The MPU I have installed was pulled from my Nine Ball, dips reset for Catacomb and zeroed out. And this MPU was working fine in Nine Ball.

And it does not get any more direct than jumping a wire from the board to the drop target assembly.
My jumper wire from A4-J4-pin 4 in the top pic and and an alligator clip on the power wire for the drop target in the lower pic will not power those D.T. switches up.

There is nothing wrong with the solenoid coil. When crediting a new game, all 4 drop targets assemblies get pushed up. But during play action, D.T. "C" target will drop but since the 3 switches are dead the targets will not pop back up.

#971 3 years ago
Quoted from vec-tor:

Does Alltek board have the right dip switch setting to the game?

Yes. The dips are correct. When I first brought thi s MPU over from Nine Ball I forgot to reset the dips. That made for some interesting action before I ever hit the credit button.

I will have to get a logic probe. I'll start studying these. I assume some are better than others. Any suggestions appreciated.

Quoted from vec-tor:

I wounder if you have a bad diode on the playfield switch strobe?

The game plays A-OK except for Bank C drop targets. What is the play field switch strobe? I have plenty of diodes in stock.

Quoted from vec-tor:

I would put the game in switch test, and make sure all switches are open.

I tried the switch test. Nothing showed up.

My wiring is stock wiring. The loose wires you see was me cutting tie wraps for access.

I'm done for the day. I'll try to get back on it tomorrow.

Thanks for the thoughts and ideas. They are always appreciated.

#974 3 years ago

Progress. I had a troubleshooting call with a friend last night who knows his way around with pinball electricity and electronics.

He suggested I isolate the drop target by itself and see what happens. So, with wiring the DT direct to the MPU and eliminating all of the other switches in the string, the drop target works as it should.

Now I just have to figure out what in this string on Row D is causing the problem.
I'll post the solution when I figure it out.

Thanks to everybody who came in with ideas.

IMG_3545 (resized).JPGIMG_3545 (resized).JPG

CAT wiring (resized).jpegCAT wiring (resized).jpeg

#976 3 years ago
Quoted from vec-tor:

Remember, how the game is wired is completely different
than how the schematics presents itself.

I understand. However, with this string on Row D, I have physically touched every switch in the W/Y wire string. That is why you saw all of the loose wire. It is wired in different order than what the drawing shows.

I am hoping that I can block all of the switches with a piece of paper and isolate the problem that way. If not, I am going to have to start cutting wires and using my alligator jumper wires and bypass each switch one at a time. A PIA.

#979 3 years ago
Quoted from vec-tor:

NOooo! please, desolder the wires.
I hate when people start cutting up stuff.

I won't be cutting the wires willy nilly. I cut close. Right to the solder joint. I prefer to solder the wire back on with a freshly stripped wire . I'm not much on electronics, and my troubleshooting skill need improvement, but I can run wiring and build a harness. And I have lot of extra Stern wire if I need to replace a section.
=================================================

Quoted from vec-tor:

I would start with the switches on the top side
of the playfield and work down. It could be a bad capacitor
on one of the switches, along with the diode.

Good thoughts but I will save this for last.
=======================================

Quoted from vec-tor:

I would desolder the "D" strobe wire (w-y) from all the switches
but have them daisy-chained together.
Put some tape on the exposed wire.

This is where I am going first. My problem is on the W/Y run. It could be something up top as you suggest, but since my only problem is the W/Y I'll look there first. And I keep thinking I am going to find where I did something wrong when I installed those 555 light boards, but everything I touched looks good.

I'll be daisy chaining as you suggest. Hopefully. this will out the bad actor.

#980 3 years ago
Quoted from Quench:

Can you elaborate?
Did the number '0' show up in the ball in play display?
Or did another number came up on the player displays that didn't change when you pressed any of your non functioning switches?
Did any other switches respond with their switch number?

I could press the self test switch and get the numbers running across showing the display lights all worked. But down in player #3 and the credit display I was getting garbage. I'll hook back up tomorrow and take a pic of the garbage I had. With the W/Y run disconnected the self test switch and the memory clear switch are working properly.

While I am in here doing all of this, I will be able to make the time to draw up all of the components that make up the Bagatelle function we talked several months ago.

#982 3 years ago
Quoted from Quench:

Sounds like you only ran burn-in-test mode, not switch test mode??
When you only disconnect that white-yellow wire from MPU J2, do the displays work correctly in test mode? If yes, the white-yellow wire has a short circuit (not open circuit) somewhere on the playfield/bagatelle.

When I disconnected the W/Y wire from everything but the "C" drop target assembly, the "C" DT works perfectly, as does everything else. I think you are right with the short circuit. Now I have to find it.

I hooked everything back up so you can see what I get with pressing the self test switch. With the W/Y wire eliminated , all of this goes away.

IMG_3558 (resized).JPGIMG_3558 (resized).JPG

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#984 3 years ago
Quoted from Quench:

The player 4 display is selected/activated by the exact same signal

This part I understand. And that is about all.

Quoted from Quench:

as the switch strobe #3 signal.

And this is? I am imagining that this has something to do with pulsing. Correct?

Quoted from Quench:

When a player display shows the same as the "credit/ball in play" display, it means that display select signal ala respective switch strobe signal is shorted to ground.

Can you put this in layman terms, please? I need to learn and understand what the switch strobe signal is. And possibly where it comes from?

Quoted from Quench:

So it's likely that switch strobe signal is shorted to one of the G.I lamps on the ground side.

How do I trouble shoot this? Do I remove all of my GI bulbs one at a time until the issue goes away?

Thanks.

#986 3 years ago
Quoted from Quench:

Nah, just look at all the switches with the white-yellow ST3 wire for anything shorting to it.
BTW have you confirmed if the issue is on the playfield or the bagatelle? i.e. the three bagatelle column "C" switches are also connected to that white-yellow wire signal *somewhere*. Maybe one of those bagatelle switches is shorted to a G.I lamp.
"Switch Strobe #3" is the expanded name of the "ST3" white-yellow switch wire you're working on. See the diagram below.

[quoted image]

Found the problem. Yes, it is something I caused. But my action was indirect.

I had a diode leg shorted to a GI light braid, as you alluded to.

IMG_3570 (resized).JPGIMG_3570 (resized).JPG

When swapping over to the 555 light boards, I had to remove all of the drop target assemblies. Apparently ( I don't know what else to call it) when I was installing Drop Target "B" I inadvertently pushed the diode leg into the GI light braid. And then when I put it all back together I had instant problems with my new LED lights. Out of frustration, the pin sat for several months as I went on to fix some easy pin stuff on my other pins.

Total time wasted: About 3 hours. The educational value: Priceless.

Many thanks to all who offered suggestions.

Special thanks to my un-named friend who got me to going in the right direction on the phone.

.

Many thanks to Vec-tor and Quench without whose help I would probably still be flailing away.

.

That little diode leg right above my green alligator clip was resting on that braided wire sitting under the drop target coil.

Now, to put this pin back together and make a drawing on the bagatelle wiring

IMG_3569 (resized).JPGIMG_3569 (resized).JPG
#992 3 years ago
Quoted from TheLaw:

I've got some repinning to do and another tweak or 2 but I'm calling this swap done.
EDIT: BG too bright, I'll deal with that
[quoted image]

That play field shines like a diamond in a goat's ass !

Is that CPR clear or did you do some extra clear work?

#993 3 years ago
Quoted from TheLaw:

EDIT: BG too bright, I'll deal with that

Check out my new experimental back box set up. I just got it together today. I have the lights set on bright setting and it is not too bright. It gives nice even light with no bulb spotting.

I still have more work to do but I am please with it, so far. I need to add more lights to get her feet lit up.

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#995 3 years ago
Quoted from TheLaw:

CPR clear only

I will be happy when mine comes in.

#996 3 years ago

I almost forgot. I am left with 2 problems that I made for myself.

While trying to figure out what was going on, I dropped screwdriver. Unfortunately the screwdriver made contact with a lug on the speaker and shorted out.

That short blew out my sound board and also my speech board. I swapped out my sound board and got my sounds back. But I don't have another speech board to swap with.

Questions:

1) My friend said I might have blown the audio amplifier on the sound board. Can this be fixed? What parts do I need?

and

2) Can my speech board be fixed? What parts would I need?

Thanks in advance.
IMG_3600 (resized).JPGIMG_3600 (resized).JPG

#998 3 years ago
Quoted from Quench:

Can you guess/comment on what the screw driver shorted to what? A screw driver touching one speaker lug isn't shorting anything unless the screw driver also touched something else at the same time.
First, measure the voltage at TP2 on the SB-300 sound board. It should be 12 volts. If not suspect resistor R1 which is a 2 ohm, 1 watt resistor which you can test with your multi-meter.
If you get 12 volts at TP2, then the amp chip might be blown. It's the device at U1 which is a "TDA2002". It looks like a 5 legged transistor screwed to the heatsink. Measure the voltage on the output of the amplifier - easiest access point to the amplifier output is the + (positive) leg of capacitor C5.
The speech board gets complicated, you don't want to have damaged the speech processor chip since they are hard to get and expensive. Need to know more about what shorted.

I sort of saw the screwdriver hit out of the cornier of my eye. I thought I saw it hit the speaker lug and the edge of the magnet, but. I cannot say for sure. I did see it hit the lug. It did not throw sparks. It was not until I turned the pin back on that I understood I had a problem. I'll have to put the sound board back and and do the tests you suggest.

I bought two of those speech processor chips for just-in-case awhile back when they were mentioned on this thread.

I'll start digging around. I'll advise when I find out what is going on.

Thanks.

#1000 3 years ago
Quoted from Quench:

Is ground connected to the speaker frame? If not, the magnet is connected to nothing so won't cause any short.

The best way I can answer that is there are two lugs on the speaker frame. Both look to be insulated from the frame. I can't explain it as I did not get a 100% look when the screwdriver fell. All I can say is not long after that, I turned the pin on to no sounds. It could be something coincidental. Not probable but certainly possible.

Quoted from Quench:

Does your replacement SB-300 sound board support the speech board input? The SB-300 boards made before Flight 2000 don't and need to be modified with a wire on the back of the board.

Thank you. The sound board I removed had a jump wire soldered on the back and there were some handwritten instructions about installing this extra wire. But there were no notes as to why the wire needed to be there. I'll look at and test my disabled board and then go from there, which may require me to modify another sound board with this wire.

I appreciate you sharing your knowledge. It means a lot.

#1002 3 years ago
Quoted from Quench:

You mean the normal two speaker wires connected to lugs?

Yes. these two lugs are what I was referring to. There is not ground wire to the speaker attach screws. None of my Sterns have any extra wire going to the speaker frame.

The pin was off that the time. I was removing some wire harness clamps to look closer into the wiring and dropped the screwdriver. And a few minutes later when I turned the pin on I had no sound.

Quoted from Quench:

When the VSU-100 speech board was designed, Stern needed a way to connect its speech audio to the SB-300 sound boards audio mixer so you could hear speech. That jumper wire on the back of the SB-300 provides that interface.

That answers several questions. I can hear the speech; Just barely. It sounds very faint. Like it is 10 miles away. I am going to go ahead and install that jumper wire to my sound board tomorrow and see what happens.

#1004 3 years ago
Quoted from Shapeshifter:

So another run of Catacomb.
Were any corrections made does anyone know?
Classic Playfield Reproductions
EIGHT NEW PLAYFIELD RUNS for May 2020 !
Just emerged from our clearcoater, in-stock and ready to ship.
- - - - -

CATACOMB (Restock, Wave Two)

The picture CPR had up for the first run is where I discovered the inserts color issue. The pic they have up now looks OK. I'll find out for sure when mine arrives. Next week, maybe?

#1008 3 years ago
Quoted from zeldzameflippers:

i have a problem with my Catacomb game. It was working perfect but now a part of the coils doesn't work anymore. The coils of both flippers, 2 targetbanks and the ball ejector are nor working, all the other coils do work. No fuses are blown.

Which drop targets? "A", "B", "C", "D" ?

Are your 3 slingshots working? Are your pop bumpers working?

Quoted from vec-tor:

Connectors in the back box?

Sounds reasonable.

Except for the flippers getting power from A2J1-6, all of the other wires feed to A3 connector.

Cat solenoid wiring (resized).jpegCat solenoid wiring (resized).jpeg

#1011 3 years ago
Quoted from zeldzameflippers:

hi, the follwing coils do not work in gameplay: targetbank a, c, d, both flippers, 2x outhole, ball in play under apron. The other coils are working.

Try to not get lost in my color coding scheme.

The only thing all of these solenoid coil switches have in common that they all connect to different connectors on your solenoid driver board (SDU). The only thing that makes sense to me is that something has gone bad on your SDU. Do you have another classic Stern that you could pull an SDU from and swap into your Catacomb to test with?

Someone better than me might have a different idea, but I think something is wrong with your SDU.

Cat solenoid wiring 1 (resized).jpegCat solenoid wiring 1 (resized).jpeg

#1012 3 years ago
Quoted from Quench:

Does your replacement SB-300 sound board support the speech board input? The SB-300 boards made before Flight 2000 don't and need to be modified with a wire on the back of the board.

Quoted from cottonm4:

Thank you. The sound board I removed had a jump wire soldered on the back and there were some handwritten instructions about installing this extra wire. But there were no notes as to why the wire needed to be there. I'll look at and test my disabled board and then go from there, which may require me to modify another sound board with this wire.
I appreciate you sharing your knowledge. It means a lot.

I added the modification wire on the back of the sound board. This did bring my speech board capabilities back. This is most valuable information.

#1013 3 years ago

I finally, after several months, have completed the LED lamp boards conversion. The pin is playing 100%. I'm sure glad; I was getting tired of working this one for so long.

I also completed my custom pop bumper lights.

The LEDs are 2 SMD. They are a little bright. If they get a little dimmer with some age, I should be OK. If they don't then I'll need to come up with something else.

Again, many thanks to everybody who threw out some ideas when I was broken down.

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#1017 3 years ago
Quoted from bluespin:

Is it too late to send a low ball offer for your “project?” Asking for a friend.

Oh, its never too late. You can always send one

#1019 3 years ago

Here is preliminary on a drawing work up for the Catacomb Bagatelle wiring diagram. It is rough and some of the print is a little light.

Does anybody have have any sort of drawing program that they could use to clean this up and refine it a little bit?

There is not a lot to the play field part of Bagatelle wiring. One relay and one extra coil are the only additions; While these are mounted on the back board, the coil is controlled by the right hand flipper.

NOTES:

1) Right flipper is wired in a standard pattern as all other right hand flippers. There is one additional wire: It is red/yellow from the relay. It may have a connector where the red/yellow changes to just red at the flipper.

2) The left hand flipper has two sets of switches. The 2nd set of switches control what color/column of lights in the bagatelle you want to shoot for.

Cat solenoid wiring 2 (resized).jpegCat solenoid wiring 2 (resized).jpeg

Stern also left Drop Target assembly "D" off of the blue print. I have added it back in red ink. All I can say is that I wish I were an artist.

Cat solenoid wiring 3 (resized).jpegCat solenoid wiring 3 (resized).jpeg

#1021 3 years ago

First time for this:

Only the two top rows lit up.

IMG_3654 (resized).JPGIMG_3654 (resized).JPG

#1024 3 years ago
Quoted from vec-tor:

Question...
is the top right kickout coil primary wire ( yellow or blue/white )?

Both kickout coils are yellow wire. I had to pull my glass and lift the play field to make sure.

Quoted from TheLaw:

I think the power on all those coils are yellow?

#1027 3 years ago
Quoted from TigerLaw:

Question:
How do you get the game to lock in on a color? I see that happen sometimes most frequently on the first ball. Does it do that automatically or is it something you activate? Thanks.

I don't really know what you question is asking but I will try.

1) During game play, all 4 lights in front of each drop target will light in clockwise rotation. Always. Whatever color of light that is lit when you drop the last drop target of, let's say "A", the corresponding light in the bonus section will light up.

2) When you have lit all 4 lights to one drop target lit up in the bonus section, all 4 lights in front of that DT will light in a fast rotation telling you that you have managed to light up their counter parts in the Bonus section. So, if you drop A-1 orange, A-6 red, A-9 Blue and A-14 green, all 4 lights in the bonus section will light up and those 4 lights in front of the DT will light in fast rotation.

after the ball drains

3). All 4 lights will light in rotation. You can take your chances as you keep firing the right flipper at the Bagatelle and hope that none of the lights rotate into the Bagatelle column that the ball goes down.

4) For full control of those lights during Bagatelle, just press the left flipper and the lights will quit rotating. And now you control which color of lights you want to shoot for.

#1034 3 years ago
Quoted from harbngr:

It is the top left roll overs.
The left most locks them to red and the center locks them to yellow. the right most increases the spinner value to a max of 1500.

I had forgot about locking the lights. I did that yesterday and thought the pin broke. What is locking those lights supposed to do?

#1035 3 years ago
Quoted from vec-tor:

O.K. Somebody needs to do some more "schematic cosmetics".
Thanks to all in repairing the schematic's discrepancies.

Wait until I bring up some questions on the switch matrix drawing

tomorrow maybe

#1037 3 years ago
Quoted from greatwichjohn:

Anyone with a bad glass here is a couple of deals. So it seems like some of my last 15 tempered Stern size blanks has some minor surface defects from glass manufacturing. These are very tiny surface depressions likely fine dust during the firing process of original glass sheets before cutting & on to tempering. So if you are interested in one, the one with a number of tiny ones $200 US shipped or better one with a few $225 US shipped. Art is perfect on both. The fuzzy area is mostly the logo text. A surface enhancer is used. If you do not like it installed on bare glass you can carefully remove it with windex & paper towels large areas & q-tips close to ink edge. Here are pictures of the worst one. At players distance installed, most people would likely not know. I try & supply Marco Specialties with best quality. No one wants complaints! Offer only to USA.
[quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image]

It looks like it is real dark, John. Is that just the photo?

#1038 3 years ago

I posted these a long time back. Time to do so again.

These are the Catacomb instructions from the manual.

Cat instructions (resized).jpegCat instructions (resized).jpeg

#1041 3 years ago
Quoted from Quench:

Changed the wire color for the "Drop Target Reset Bank A" coil from "R-B" to "R-BLU". The manual and SDB schematic show it this way. Correct me if it's actually wrong.

Nice work.

R-Blu does not look right when the other 3 are base color orange. I'll lift my play field and verify.

Quoted from Quench:

Removed the Left Flipper Button switch - it belongs in the cabinet switch schematic.

This was a question I was going to bring up.

Should the diode high lighted in blue be removed as well?

And what is this monster hi lighted in green that is not labeled?

Cat instructions 1 (resized).jpegCat instructions 1 (resized).jpeg

#1044 3 years ago
Quoted from Quench:

All other schematics include the switch matrix diode even when there's no switch. You could argue the switch itself should also be removed from the diagram but I'll leave it for consistency.

The only reason I asked is because I see what looks like 3 unused switch positions at top of column "A".

Quoted from Quench:

BTW, any chance if you can confirm whether the pop bumper switches have capacitors?

Yes. I can do that.

Might be a couple of days.

My other question: Did Stern put a newly graduated electronics engineer on the Catacomb drawings?

#1045 3 years ago
Quoted from harbngr:

So actually the super bonus on catacomb makes sense. I didn't realize it till it was pointed out in a post. But the toast is actually a magic square. where if you add the numbers in a line, be it horizontal, vertical, or even diagonal, they all equal '34'. So with that, when the toast is filled, you have 4 rows of numbers that equal 34. 34 *4 = 136 * 1000 points = 136k.
It is actually a pretty cool little secret once it was explained.

Did you like my Magic Square write up?

#1048 3 years ago
Quoted from Watkinsd13:

Hello! A bit of a long shot but I’m trying to find a catacomb and join this club! I’ve been following this club and have learned a lot about it and would love to get my hands on one. Thanks again for any help.

Look in the archived sales. There are a couple that did not sell. It is how I got mine. But the prices are up there.

#1050 3 years ago
Quoted from Watkinsd13:

cottonm4 never thought about doing that and messaging folks. Yeah I looked through there and prices seem kinda all over the place. Thanks and I will try that!

You can always make an offer. Years ago with newspaper ads ( that cost money) , you could go through the old newspapers and call to see if something did not sell and sometimes you could make an offer and get it.

#1051 3 years ago

It has arrived.

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IMG_3692 (resized).JPGIMG_3692 (resized).JPG

The fonts are different. I would have preferred the original. But I won't notice after it installed and ready to play.

Screen Shot 2020-05-19 at 3.49.10 PM (resized).pngScreen Shot 2020-05-19 at 3.49.10 PM (resized).png

And Joesph Joos signature is a little weak.

Screen Shot 2020-05-19 at 3.51.22 PM (resized).pngScreen Shot 2020-05-19 at 3.51.22 PM (resized).png

The clear is smooth and shiny. I close my eyes and run my hand across the play field. I cannot feel any inserts. I REALLY like the white inserts they are using. They are sort of a milky white, sort of translucent but not really. They have a soft look to them.

Other than the two minor discrepancies I listed, I do not see any other flaws. I see no need to apply additional clear coats.

The clear is cured. The play field is ready for build up. ( that will be a bit in the future).

I'm happy. I would buy it again.

#1053 3 years ago
Quoted from Quench:

Changed the wire color for the "Drop Target Reset Bank A" coil from "R-B" to "R-BLU". The manual and SDB schematic show it this way. Correct me if it's actually wrong.

Drop Target "A" does have the red/blue wire. Your action is correct.

Quoted from Quench:

BTW, any chance if you can confirm whether the pop bumper switches have capacitors?

My pop bumper switches do NOT have capacitors installed.

Carry on.

#1054 3 years ago
Quoted from greatwichjohn:

So there are different versions of backglass. Most people have no problem with my dark version. Over the years with this title about 3% are not happy. So 97% are happy & ok with it. So far I have only heard of a small number with white. The art supplied with my Star Gazer was dark also & I changed it to almost all white. This was the reverse only some had the dark version. Go figure with all the suppliers of glass over the years for all manufacturers of pinball games. There are more choices now for glass with the big guys wanting all the market.

John, I just sent you a PM. I need a Catacomb back glass. I'll take one of these you have offered.

#1056 3 years ago
Quoted from Quench:

Thankyou.
Last mod I hope, I've removed the coil marked "Backbox Playfield" from the playfield schematic - it's actually the bagatelle playfield enable relay which is behind the bagatelle and it's on your bagatelle schematic.
Unfortunately I can no longer change the work in progress playfield schematic in post #1040 so here it is.
[quoted image]

Very nice.

I am going to have to go buy a proper sheet of drawing paper and redo my bagatelle drawing. I have figured out how I can do the lettering and numbering without me trying to do that with my clumsy hand.

EDIT: So I do not sound ungrateful, thank you! for all you have done to clean this drawing up.

#1059 3 years ago
Quoted from Quench:

Cheers, I'll have to scan and update the lower cabinet schematic with the items that are missing (left flipper bagatelle switch, and speaker/volume control). Maybe next week. Then there's the power/transformer diagram to include the bagatelle power wire, and the backbox wiring diagram.. it doesn't end

Yes, it does not end. The four columns in the backbox need to be addressed. .

While inside the back box rooting around, I see each column has a trip wire that corresponds with each drop target. Bank "C" is triggered by a Y/W wire at the drop target cage and also has a corresponding wire at a Bagatelle column. I have not yet traced the bagatelle wires to their source.

So, when you shoot the bagatelle, one of the three bagatelle switches also resets the drop target.

#1063 3 years ago
Quoted from harbngr:

Ya, really thinking about it. Also thinking about doing the alltek led board as well.
Ran into the dimpling issue when I swapped out my flight 2000. so well aware of that issue now, unfortunately.

Get the PCBs. you will not be sorry. Well, at least I am not sorry.

#1064 3 years ago

Oh, what a thrill. My best Catacomb score ever. It took playing a lot games to get this score on this short ball time pinball. I lit the Bonus section up twice ! It was a gas.

Previous best score was the other day for 1.5 million.

Catacomb is masterpiece of pinball wizardry.

IMG_3709 (resized).JPGIMG_3709 (resized).JPG

#1066 3 years ago
Quoted from harbngr:

sweet score there cotton, think you beat my top score by a little over 100k.
I agree as well, this pin rocks it. So much so that i invested the money to do a rebuild.

Like you, I bought a new play field. And I just bought a Greenwich back glass ( I imagine you bought the other one ). I am going take it up all the way. My problem is my cabinet, while not perfect, is too nice to restore. Maybe if I can find a beater I can swap cabinets and do the cab, too.

1 week later
#1070 3 years ago
Quoted from robx46:

Was wondering if anybody knew where I could get the 1 way gate wireform for the backbox! I search part number w2-6a-308 which is what it is, but it turns up absolutely nothing.

I have made a bunch for several pinsiders. I am out of the type of wire I need to make them. I would have to see if I can buy some more of the correct size wire.

Is your missing?

#1072 3 years ago
Quoted from robx46:

Yep it is missing. I'd certainly pay for one if you can do it. Even if I manage to find another I'd like to have a backup.

We have a hobby shop that is fairly well supplied. I’ll go shopping tomorrow and see if they have the wire I need.

#1077 3 years ago
Quoted from robx46:

Awesome thanks cottonm4! Let me know!
Now a gameplay question. What does the "add a ball" setting do? I can set it to 0,1,3 or 5. These Stern manuals aren't as good as Bally in terms of setting descriptions & recommended settings.

We are in business. I found some wire stock I forgot about. I will need a few days to work this into my schedule but I will be able to make you a pair.

Add-a-ball, I believe is just another way of saying "extra ball". With those dip switches set per the manual you can stack up to 5 extra balls. The most I have ever gotten is 3 extra balls.

I'm not proud. I'll take every extra ball I can get on Catacomb. When it comes to short ball time pins, Catacomb is 2nd to none. It is tougher to play than my Robocop which is a short ball time champion. Getting a killer ball on Catacomb is an adrenaline rush.

#1079 3 years ago
Quoted from Jr99svt:

Has there been any Progress on this part?did you ever hear back from Mantis?

I have heard back from Mantis. He indicated he can probably make them, but there will be set up costs. The thing is is that I should probably just send him my set, but I am afraid they would get lost in the mail. When I have them out of the pin, I treat them as though they are made of gold.

I was trading emails and plans with a guy in Texas and then the virus knocked everything for a loop.

I have my drawings almost finished. I think we were at something like 10 people wanting a set of these gate mounts.

Can everybody that wanted a set of these stand up and be counted again, please?

#1080 3 years ago
Quoted from robx46:

Yikes so I'll also just set that to 5 then!
& thanks again, just message me where when they are ready I'll pay & send you my address.

Unknown (resized).jpegUnknown (resized).jpeg

1 week later
#1081 3 years ago

Another small mod; For the backless.

On my old back glass, some of the ink had been worn away by the two gate brackets on the displays board. There is no clearance between the two gate brackets and the back glass and I already am starting to see a wear point.

Not wanting a repeat on my new back glass, I added some duct tape as a preventive measure. It is just a little something to provide a barrier between the glass and the brackets.

IMG_3863 (resized).JPGIMG_3863 (resized).JPG

#1085 3 years ago

Quite some time back I noticed that all of the white numbers on the orange inserts have some kind of action/reaction with the orange dye and the numbers turn orange.

This pattern also exists on the CPR repro play field. I have no idea why the orange color gets sucked up by the numbers. I find it strange. The red, blue, and green colors do not bleed into the white number ink. Only the orange.

IMG_3886 (resized).JPGIMG_3886 (resized).JPG

1 month later
#1093 3 years ago
Quoted from hocuslocus:

Yup, I can do two or three whenever just let me know. Finally starting on stern freefall last week, had a group we were trying to get to ten to get plastics made.... sadly we never made it, no love for the freefall I guess .

Wait, you are saying that you can make these two gate brackets for Catacomb? Am I reading you correctly? There are 2 people I know who need a set of these.

#1095 3 years ago
Quoted from hocuslocus:

Oh no I can't make them (wish I could). I was just replying, to an older message you had about it. Just saying Id take 2 or 3 depending on how many needed to make 10. Probably be the worst time to mail anything right now anyway.

I have not completely forgotten about this. I have made some drawings, but as I look closer, I am figuring out that these parts are very close tolerance when it comes to matching up with the play field glass. If I measure wrong, or if Kerry did not get them quite right then they would not fit. There is very little space between the back glass and the tops of the brackets. I actually have some paint/ink worn from my back glass due to interference.

So, for complete accuracy I would need to send Kerry my brackets from my Catacomb so he could make his own measurements; And I have nightmares of them getting lost in the mail. So I am stuck. I do not want to be that much of a volunteer

#1098 3 years ago
Quoted from hocuslocus:

so something like this?
amazon.com link »
also just for another option, do you know what the approximate thickness is of the metal used.

Yes, this is the wire. $2.50 a stick is a little more than I pay at the local airplane hobby shop, but it is not bad price.

If you don't have Amazon Prime, or cannot get free shipping, this shop sells the same stuff for around $9.00 shipped.

https://www.misterart.com/cart/cart.html

Quoted from hocuslocus:

also just for another option, do you know what the approximate thickness is of the metal used.

I assume you mean the metal for the gate brackets, correct? I cannot find my working paper but I think the flat material measures .030".

#1100 3 years ago
Quoted from hocuslocus:

Found a couple of metal bending options besides a table vise and hand tools that might work pretty well.

Well, share your wealth of knowledge. Don't keep us in suspense.

#1103 3 years ago
Quoted from colonel_caverne:

Hi there,
Just wanted to know for my information what is the piece of art behind the clear part of backglass? Is it a mini playfield, a plastic, what else?
Thanks

You can call it a mini-playfield but is more commonly called a bagatelle. In bagatelle mode, a light weight ball shoots to the top and drops into one of 4 columns

#1106 3 years ago
Quoted from colonel_caverne:

Ok thanks.
Bagatelle is wood painted, plastic,..?

Quoted from TheLaw:

That's a good question; It's some sort of pressed wood. You can see fibers when unscrewing posts from it.

Yes. Some sort of particle board, MDF maybe. 1/2" thick. Painted white. All of the colors are silk screened I am thinking.

#1108 3 years ago
Quoted from woody76:

I am looking at a Catacomb to purchase and the bagatelle ball is missing. Is there a replacement for purchase?

We can get you fixed up on the ball, I think. But in the bagatelle up on the top right hand side there are two brackets and a gate the ball must pass through. Those two brackets are unobtainum.

What does the pin look like condition wise?

CPR makes the play field and plastics. Greatwich makes the back glass. BG Resto makes the back glass. Pinball Pimp makes the cab stencils.

EDIT: The ball is a one inch wooden ball. Shipping will cost more than the ball.

https://www.caseyswood.com/shoppingcart/zen-cart/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=159_157&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI97PVk9rQ6wIVUvDACh3hvw51EAAYASAAEgKX5PD_BwE

#1111 3 years ago
Quoted from woody76:

Anyone know the green color of the cab? who makes the best backglass for this? I think there are 2 people making it. and is there a source for the plastic piece that holds the bagatelle ball by the flipper? I taped mine back together but would like a new one.

I robbed one of the wooden play field supports from inside the cab and went to Lowes for a small can of color matched paint. It was not perfect but it was real close in color match.

I can make you the piece of plastic that holds the bagatelle in place. Actually, I have some spare material. I can cut it to size for you, make your bend marks and you can make the bends in it your self. If I ship it flat like this is will fit in an envelope and postage is 50 cents. PM me your address.

I'll do this for you for free but you have to come back and share with us a little bit of your experiences with your Big Game now that you have it playing.

Deal? You first I'll look for your input on the Big Game thread.

And then when you get this piece of plastic, you come back and tell us about Catacomb.
Am also send ing you a PM

#1113 3 years ago
Quoted from woody76:

I have been on this machine for hours. Very addicting and frustrating at the same time. I did finally light up the entire square with 1 extra ball but had it all lit on my third ball. I was really digging Big Game but I have to give the edge to Catacomb by just a bit as far as game play goes. I see why some folks do not have a great first impression on Catacomb. It is not one you just walk up to and immediatly love it. After probably 5 hours of playing I have a real appreciation for it now.

Yeah. It took me a few hours of play to really get into it, too.

Have you had a spinner shot go bad and drain yet? If not you will

1 week later
#1117 3 years ago
Quoted from woody76:

had my first spinner shot drain today. It was a laser! Did have my best game yet. 2 extra balls, had 5x playfield, and cleared the toast area once and almost a second time.

I have lit up the bonus once and did 13 lights the 2nd time around. I do not know what happens if you get all of the bonus lit twice.

Sounds like you had a couple of killer balls.

#1121 3 years ago
Quoted from The_Director:

Can someone get me dimensions of their backglass please? Going to have to order the translite off eBay and need to know what size glass to go with.
Also, anyone have a link to the ball in the bagatelle in the back? Thanks!

28 1/2" wide x 25 1/2" tall.

#1123 3 years ago
Quoted from The_Director:

Thank you! These are 1/8" thick too, right?

1/8”. Yes

3 weeks later
#1128 3 years ago
Quoted from The_Director:

Just noticed something weird on the field I swapped. It doesn’t have the numbers for the banks ABCD and only has the bank letters in the middle. Early run? Proto? I just noticed, but strange and have never seen.
[quoted image][quoted image]

They don't need to be on those inserts. You have the A-B-C-D play field. So you have A-orange, A-red, A-blue, A-green. And all four of those are located at...

I wish my Play field was the A-B-C-D type. They are scarce. But they are out there.

Way back in the thread someone explained the logic behind the A-B-C-D play fields.

Of course, it you are upgrading with a CPR repro play field, you will give up the A-B-C-D format, since CPR followed the Magic Square format.

When you have the number type play field you have to do a mental exercise as to where Red-7 goes to. Eventually, after you play enough and your memory function kicks in you realize that Red-7 goes to "C". And blue-5 goes to "A".

3 weeks later
#1133 3 years ago

My best Bonus/Toast attack session to date. All I needed to make complete run the 2nd time around was D-13 Orange and D-2 Green.

Part of what helped me was that I scored 2 Extra Balls on Ball 2.

Sorry, the lights are little bright under the camera. There is no glare while playing.

IMG_4908 (resized).JPGIMG_4908 (resized).JPG

1 month later
#1135 3 years ago

It looks like CPR has sold out of the Catacomb repro play fields. I hope everyone who wanted one got one.

#1140 3 years ago
Quoted from harbngr:

ya, got mine. waiting till spring so I can reclear it.
thinking of doing the numbers on the amber toast inserts. hate that they look faded.

I bought mine as soon as they were for sale. What has that been? 6 months?

I opened up the box and checked for flaws and it looked great. I boxed it back up. I just had another look. The play field is a smooth as the day I first opened the box. It is an excellent coat of clear; It is as smooth as a baby's butt. I'm installing it as it came from CPR. It needs nothing.

I don't know what it is with the amber inserts, but somehow the amber dyes bleed into the white ink on the inserts. My original play field has the same color bleed with the amber inserts, leaving it with orange looking ink. And my CPR play field also has orange looking ink, as well. I think you will just have to live with it.

Maybe some other Cat owners can speak up about the amber inserts.

3 months later
#1143 3 years ago
Quoted from rcbrown316:

Should i snag one now while available and deal with the decision later?

only you can make that decision.

Quoted from rcbrown316:

Do we think they will be available in 2 years?

CPR is your answer man for that.

Quoted from rcbrown316:

What would my old one be worth on resale if i replace it?

That's a good question. Yours needs some restoration touchup work.

Quoted from rcbrown316:

Plastics are nearly perfect but should i be concerned with matching colors with a new PF?

I am going to use my original plastics. They are mostly black in color. I see no color matching problem.

Quoted from rcbrown316:

Also why are the borders on the green and blue toast insert "droopy compared to red/amber? Most of the sterns I see the back borders are off-center. I figured it was just shoddy workmanship.

When I bought my first parts for Big Game from Steve at PBR, he told me he never liked Stern quality (he is a Gottlieb man). I did not understand what he was talking about until I started restoring my Big Game and also do a little work on Gottlieb and Williams pins. Stern was sloppy in its assembly work, IMO.

On a Williams pin, the switch diodes were wired in nice and neat. It was extra work. Stern just slopped the diodes on.

This is a Gottlieb Snow Derby pin. Notice how the keylines around the inserts are real thin lines, all nice and neat. That took some precision work. Stern, OTOH, used the big, fat, wide lines, around the inserts and slopped the keylines on.

And what did it matter? These pins were supposed to last 3-4 years. They lived in arcades and bars. All they needed to do is work and get people to drop their coins. So, no point in over building.

Gottleib, Bally, and Williams are long gone. Stern is still around so he/it must have been doing something right at the time.

#1148 2 years ago
Quoted from Agent_Hero:

Catacomb playfields sold out on their site earlier this year. I assume the restock is when they get more “lumber” allocated for a given title.

They are back for sale. $850.00 a pop.

https://classicplayfields.com/product-category/pinball-playfields/

#1149 2 years ago
Quoted from FLASHBALL:

What size ball is used in the backglass for catacomb?

1 inch. Wooden, I think. Weighs .4 oz.

I put up a link in this thread where they could be bought. Like anything else, the price is not bad. Shipping is killer.

Did you get it running?

#1153 2 years ago
Quoted from FLASHBALL:

Not yet. Just trying to pull together materials so I'll have everything when it's time.
Also, I was lucky enough to have the brackets intact. But Im going to need help fashioning a wire gate for them.
[quoted image]

Come over. I'll make you a gate for the back box. Quite a few people on this thread have a gate that I made for their Catacomb. You can either come over and watch me make it or I can have ready for when you arrive.

#1154 2 years ago
Quoted from vec-tor:

My two cents... I am not happy that the fine black line details are lost on
the reproduction Catacomb playfield.

I know what you are talking about. Those black lines have room for improvement. I am more disappointed that different fonts were used for the numbers on the inserts. But it is such a beautiful repro play field otherwise.

#1155 2 years ago
Quoted from cottonm4:

1 inch. Wooden, I think. Weighs .4 oz.
I put up a link in this thread where they could be bought. Like anything else, the price is not bad. Shipping is killer.
Did you get it running?

I found the link for the wooden back box ball.

https://www.caseyswood.com/shoppingcart/zen-cart/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=159_157&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI97PVk9rQ6wIVUvDACh3hvw51EAAYASAAEgKX5PD_BwE

They cost 16 cents each. You have to buy a minimum of 5. So, 80 cents worth of wooden balls. And $7.00 for shipping. I do think if the pinball hobby dried up that the post office would go broke. I know I have been doing my part to the post office in business

#1156 2 years ago
Quoted from vec-tor:

Looks like it is time to get in contact with cottonm4.

Yeah, he comes over to play my pins and I give him a basic primer on the rules of Catacomb. On his 2nd game he gets all 16 lights in the Bonus section lit ! And then he says, " I want a Catacomb."

It took me hours worth of play to get those lights lit.

Bastard. Come over here and make me look bad on my own machine

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