Casanova bagatelle switch mystery

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#1 5 years ago

OP

ED

oilspot

Pinside member

Dover-foxcroft, ME

6y 46,050 202 10 6

My '66 Williams Casanova beater box is getting pretty close to complete functioning.. But one issue it has is baffling me. In the backbox bagatelle feature, there are five lanes, marked 100,300,500,300,100. They all score as they should. EXCEPT the 300 point lane on the left side usually fails to advance the ball count stepper. Obviously there are two sets of contacts and one contact on that one switch isn't working. Nope. There's a single switch in each 300 lane, wired in parallel. One wire, two switches, one circuit. The right hand lane works fine. Ball hits switch, ding ding ding! 300 points, click click next ball. Ball hits Left lane switch, ding ding ding, 300 points, no click click. Same ball in play when outhouse kicker kicks. It's one wire! What am I missing here???? I've had the switch all apart, adjusted the ball rest switches, i'm stumped.

0

#2 5 years ago

OP

ED

oilspot

Pinside member

Dover-foxcroft, ME

6y 46,050 202 10 6

Umm, that's outhole kicker... frikkin autocorrect.

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#3 5 years ago

RM

rolf_martin_062

Inactive member

Aarau

9y 59,550 4,150 14 8

Hi oilspot
I must ask when I do not fully understand the text in a post --- Your "fails to advance the ball count stepper" --- "same ball in play when Outhole-Kicker fires". Does this mean "AA": You get the points and the pin resets the playfield features and the pin kicks out a new ball --- faulty the same ball is given" ? --- or "BB" the same as AA but no kicking out a new ball ? --- or "CC ..." ? - more detailled description is needed.
Can You always MAKE the fault happen ? - or do You have to play - maybe several balls until the fault happens because the bagatelle is nice and the ball lands in "fault making hole" ?

I do wild guessing - maybe the problem is "The Ball-Index-Relay does not pull-in when the ball lands in the "fault-making Bagatelle" ? In the schematics I see at 14-D: Tilt-Relay pulling makes the Ball-Index-Relay to pull-in" and the "Small-Ball-Relay makes the Ball-Index-Relay to pull-in". The Coil on Small-Ball-Relay is also shown at schematics-14-D --- it pulls-in when "Small-Ball-Rest-Switch" is closed - Outhole-Relay is pulling and some more switches are closed. Maybe (?) the problem You have is caused by "non working stuff shown in area-14-D" ?

A "problem" when testing: The pulling Outhole-Relay and the turning motor make the pulling Ball-Index-Relay to quit pulling when the stuff makes the Ball-Release-Kicker (Outhole-Kicker) to fire (also shown in area-14-D). It is too late to look for "does the Ball-Index-Relay pull ?" - too late when You look at the Ball-Index-Relay AFTER the new ball has been kicked over to the shooter alley.

Sidenote: Strange, new to me --- I am used to "in a 4-Player-pin making points with 'ball in play' makes the Ball-Index-Relay to pull-in" - it then stays pulling for a long time - then the lost ball rolls into the Outhole - Outhole-stuff is done - new ball is kicked out and the Ball-Index-Relay quits pulling. Greetings Rolf

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#4 5 years ago

OP

ED

oilspot

Pinside member

Dover-foxcroft, ME

6y 46,050 202 10 6

The original issue was that one 399 pt switch would award 300 points and advance the ball count stepper before ejecting the next ball, while the other 300 point lane would award 300 points and eject a ball without advancing the ball count stepper. But now i'm having other issues with the stepper...

0

#5 5 years ago

OP

ED

oilspot

Pinside member

Dover-foxcroft, ME

6y 46,050 202 10 6

Ok, after more cleaning, fiddling and adjusting I got the ball count stepper to work consistently for awhile again. Except when the left 300 point switch is tripped in the bagatelle. The right 300 point switch functions normally, but the left one fails to trigger the ball count stepper . I am baffled as these two switches are essentially the same switch. They do the same thing to the same wire. If the left switch didn't score 300 then this would be easy. I'm almost ready to just write "extra ball" on the backglass over that switch!

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#6 5 years ago

HOW

HowardR

Pinside member

Boulder, CO

7y 78,050 6,257

OP
Quoted from oilspot:
Ok, after more cleaning, fiddling and adjusting I got the ball count stepper to work consistently for awhile again. Except when the left 300 point switch is tripped in the bagatelle. The right 300 point switch functions normally, but the left one fails to trigger the ball count stepper . I am baffled as these two switches are essentially the same switch. They do the same thing to the same wire. If the left switch didn't score 300 then this would be easy. I'm almost ready to just write "extra ball" on the backglass over that switch!

We think they're wired in parallel but your machine doesn't think so. There's 2 of us but unfortunately your machine has veto power! You're going to have to look carefully at the wiring in the backbox and maybe even temporarily unsolder some wires.

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#7 5 years ago

RM

rolf_martin_062

Inactive member

Aarau

9y 59,550 4,150 14 8

Hi oilspot
You write "two switches ... same switch ... same thing ... same wire ..." --- do You look in the pin ? or do You look at the schematics ? - a single switch actuating or two switches mounted together - actuating together ?
See the JPG - written in blue - "two" switches - written in blue "how many switches". I do not understand the functioning of "Transfer-Relay" - does it act always the same ?

My theory (to not stepping the ball-count-unit) is: The Ball-Index-Relay does not pull at a time it should be pulling. I like SteveFury 's Test-Light(s) - two car-bulbs of 12 Volts mounted one behind the other sums up to 24 Volt --- such 24 Volt Test-Lights we can mount permanent - then we play and have an eye on the Test-Light(s) - always same behaviour ?
Mounted just the "AAA" tells us about pulling or not pulling of Ball-Index-Relay.
Mounted the "BBB" and "CCC" tells about: Can current flow through the "Switch on Ball-Index-Relay - can current flow to make the Ball-Count-Unit to step ?

SteveFury 's Test-Light(s): Here https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/reading-gottlieb-schematics#post-2634425 . Greetings Rolf

0Casanova-Work-01 (resized).jpg

0

#8 5 years ago

OP

ED

oilspot

Pinside member

Dover-foxcroft, ME

6y 46,050 202 10 6

The ball count stepper can be heard operating except when the left 300 point switch is hit. I'll try and get the lights wired across the ball index relay and see if the problem is present there. What I don't understand is why one of the 300 point switches does everything is should, and the other, while obviously closing and awarding points, doesn't do the same. I'll clean and check contacts in the transfer relay and the ball index relay.. I was thinking of swapping the two 300 point switches to see if the problem follows the switch. Oh, and there are two switches under the small ball rest. Tiny leaf switches that are difficult to adjust. I'm considering replacing them with microswitches. Although they seem to be working well for now.

By oilspot

5 years ago

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