Carnival Queen


By okorange

2 months ago


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  • Latest reply 1 week ago by okorange
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Mixer 4 Draft.pdf (PDF preview)


There are 51 posts in topic. You are on page 1 of 2.
#1 88 days ago

I've just begun another restoration. This time it's a Carnival Queen, the first magic screen game made in 1958. This is a candidate, everything's there and the cab and head are solid. But it's filthy. I started assessing what I'm up against here and noticed a few operator mods and cheats. One was the reflex unit. It was set so it couldn't step up or down, and the unit was positioned to break almost all of the circuits. Now here's an interesting photo of the gears taken out of the machine on the bench. Guess which one does what?

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#2 88 days ago

Step up is on the bottom, step down on the top?

That sounds (and looks) really fair!

#3 88 days ago

Correct but I'm not sure fair is the right description! I thought this operator was a straight guy but the more I look at these games the more I think he was just another crook like most of them. Boy scouts didn't run these machines.

#4 88 days ago

I have run into some machines that were not rigged - but they're the exception. I think I must underestimate how good players were on route.

#5 87 days ago

Phil, when I first was looking at buying a bingo, the machine I was looking at was a
Carnival Queen!
There is/was a guy in Toronto who had three of them. I was never able to contact him,
hence, my Bikini machine.
Good luck.

#6 87 days ago

I thought the games came from the factory with different tooth counts on the tighten/loosen gears. My Key West has a fine-toothed gear (the "loosening" gear) with an embossed "3". There is an spare gear screwed to the rear door with an embossed "5," same as shown in the photo above. That gear may be even finer-toothed than the "3" gear - it's hard to tell without having both gears on the workbench.

#7 87 days ago

They did! There were several gears that came with the games, and the operator could select. The photo shows that this operator was particularly tight because they used the #5 gear, which has the lowest reduction ratio (IIRC). #3 is more fair to the player.

#8 87 days ago

I'll check the number on the spare gear, it's still on the rear door.

#9 86 days ago

Were there generally 5 gears that came with the game numbered 1 to 5, with the 1 being the most liberal? If so, I may be looking to buy 20 #1 gears.

Quoted from bingopodcast:

They did! There were several gears that came with the games, and the operator could select. The photo shows that this operator was particularly tight because they used the #5 gear, which has the lowest reduction ratio (IIRC). #3 is more fair to the player.

#10 86 days ago
Quoted from robertmedl:

Were there generally 5 gears that came with the game numbered 1 to 5, with the 1 being the most liberal?

I think so?

I've only had/worked on one game with more than one extra gear, and it had three. They were screwed to the bottom of the cab, so I guess that's why they didn't go missing on that game. I didn't make a note of the numbers.

Someone with more experience is needed to verify.

#11 86 days ago

So I can't be of any help unless I go looking at the other machines. The CQ's spare gear was another #3. It appears maybe the operator had a choice to make the step up and down in the same increments or screw the players. I'll bet they didn't have to think about it too long.

#12 84 days ago

Terry1 - Bikini's a better machine than Carnival Queen from a player's standpoint. But the historical value of Carnival Queen makes it at least somewhat collectible and that's why I am attacking this one to bring it back. It's the third one I've owned and the first worth saving.

#13 83 days ago

Back at work on the CQ. Here's a couple of photos of the winner unit. This unit is situated facing up on the back door, so it tends to get rather dirty. Well, that's an understatement. Here's the difference before and after cleaning. The back side of the unit was very clean; nothing falls in there because it faces down. I determined it needed nothing. Good to go!

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#14 80 days ago

Continuing on this weekend...Control unit disassembled, cleaned, reclutched, motor repacked. What a mess.

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#15 76 days ago

any plans to take apart the mixers? If so, please let me know if you're willing to take some time to help make blueprints.

a how-to got posted at https://bingo.cdyn.com/techno/howto/diagram_mixer/ with one way of making mixer blueprints.

I need to write up another way that has less potential downtime, but it's basically printing a blank template and filling it in and/or just writing down which rivets are connected to which wire lugs in tabular form.

anyway, mixer 2 and 4 needs to be documented for carnival queen, and pictures of mixers 1 and 3 contact plates and the rotors wouldn't hurt to check the diagrams for those already on the site.

#16 76 days ago

I always disassemble the mixers and clean and check everything. As a matter of fact, that may be on my agenda this weekend. Just looked at your site and never noticed that the mixer diagrams weren't done for the Queen. You don't think they're the same as the Sea Island? I can sure take a stab at it.

#17 75 days ago

I put some templates at bingo.cdyn.com/paper/templates. You know enough about the machines to take a lot of shortcuts, so I'd suggest pictures like on the how-to for reference. What I usually do is look at the wiring side on the contact plate and:
- mark positions 1,4,8,12,16,20,24 on the contact plate with a sharpie to minimize counting
- x-out all the unused rivets on the diagram ... makes a good check as you fill things in
- start on lug 2 and follow the wiring around, sticking a 2 on each rivet that's connected. Move wiring as needed to see what's going on.
- repeat for all the rest of the lugs
- figure out from the wire colors, schematic and wire isolation what wire is on each lug

make sure ya take a picture of the wiper side of the rotors!

if you aren't in a huge rush to get it back together, maybe post pics and your process so other people can see how you do it and ask q's before reassembly?

#18 74 days ago

No rush but I'm putting this off at least for a short time. I thought I'd get to it now but I have two games going to the Rocky Mountain Pinball Showdown next weekend and they need some attention. I'll take care of this once it's disassembled.

3 weeks later
#19 50 days ago

Between work, family and life in general I proceed slowly on these projects. I've completed the disassembly, cleaning and re-installation of the magic screen. This thing is a bear, removing the motor, whacking roll pins, loosening and removing chain drives, lubing everything and the worst is getting it back together without three or four hands. A little gorilla tape helps hold things in place, and it doesn't hurt to say a few choice words as long as no one else is around. Install an NOS number board and looking good. I could probably use a replacement moving color screen but I'll worry about that later. Back in place and smooth as silk although I may need a very slight adjustment of the wiper to assure no problems later.

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#20 50 days ago
Quoted from okorange:

Between work, family and life in general I proceed slowly on these projects. I've completed the disassembly, cleaning and re-installation of the magic screen. This thing is a bear, removing the motor, whacking roll pins, loosening and removing chain drives, lubing everything and the worst is getting it back together without three or four hands. A little gorilla tape helps hold things in place, and it doesn't hurt to say a few choice words as long as no one else is around. Install an NOS number board and looking good. I could probably use a replacement moving color screen but I'll worry about that later. Back in place and smooth as silk although I may need a very slight adjustment of the wiper to assure no problems later.

Beautiful!

#21 50 days ago

@okorange, how do you remove the screen from the game? It doesn't have the spring clips that hold later ones in place - do you have to take off the top of the track to access the screen?

I've worked on one or two Carnival Queens but haven't had to remove the screen or adjust the screen unit on them.

That NOS card sure looks great!

#22 50 days ago

I took the whole thing apart. First the top track to remove the screen, and that opens everything else up. I took everything apart and the pieces were sitting on the workbench mocking me. I had a terrible time getting the screen back in after maintenance since I've never taken apart a CQ screen unit. The wipers have to line up with the stationary board, the unit has to be aligned properly so the index is correct with the screen, and the screen has to line up with a secondary index switch so when the screen is at zero it makes. Putting it back together again I ended up loosening one screw at the bottom holding the whole thing down and sort of forced the screen in. This must have been a huge complaint from operators as Bally changed that design later to make it easier. I can't wait to get to the mixers in a while - much easier!

#23 50 days ago

That sounds awesome if you just have a bulb out... (who thought that was a good idea?!)

Out of curiosity, could you simply replace the track with a more modern one with the spring clips? Or due to the other differences, would that not work?

#24 50 days ago

I think you could probably do that replacement and as a matter of fact I thought about it since I have parts. But I left it original just because. The lights can be accessed since the screen is short enough to leave plenty of room when shifted around the backside.

#25 50 days ago
Quoted from okorange:

he screen is short enough to leave plenty of room when shifted around the backside.

Oh, right. Haha!

Quoted from okorange:

But I left it original just because.

I probably would too. Luckily, it should be good for another 55 years or so.

#26 45 days ago

Fire! I completed all work on the back side of the white board, rebuilt all steppers and cleaned the score counters and the extra ball unit as well as the replay counter and the five bank switches. Next on to some more work on the back door and the magic screen feature unit. Wow, there'd been quite a fire in there at some point in its life. It looks like the step up coil had remained engaged for a little too long and poof, it burned, scarring the back door and melting some of the other parts in there. The operator did a decent patch job since the unit was working properly, but this has got to be fixed!

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#27 40 days ago

On to the mixers. I'm in the process of taking them apart and cleaning, so @baldtwit wanted a little help as long as the damn thing is accessible. Mixer #1 is documented for the CQ on the site, so I started by checking that diagram for accuracy. The diagrams are shown from the wiring side, I'm used to looking at things from the wiper side so I had a little problem wrapping my mind around this at first. I started by breaking as many circuits as I could. That was accomplished by sticking cardboard under all of the reflex wipers and disconnecting the reflex adjustment plug (Diag. I-23) and tripping the extra ball relay (Diag. F-26 to the mixer at C-31). Then I tested the lugs to check which ones made with each other. At this point, it was 13/14 and 6/9/11, just as drawn. So to check all of the other lugs was easy, but only if I had the mixer shown from the wiper side. I flipped the blueprint horizontally in Photoshop so I could see it from that side. Good I can read numbers backwards. Then it was easy for me to test all of the other wires 2-5, 7, 8, 10, 12, 15 and 16. They were all good as drawn. Since it was impossible to test the tied lugs without actually disconnecting wires, I had to visually inspect the wiring side to verify those, and all was good. It looks like lug 10 was available to the operator to loosen the machine a little by jumping to another lug, like that was going to happen...

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#28 40 days ago

Mixer #2 is mapped. This one is way more simple than #1. There are seven lugs with wires attached on this mixer. All of its functions are located at H-26 of the schematic. As suggested, I started by x'ing out all of the unused rivets. It turns out that rows 3 and 4 (from the outside) are not used at all. Anyway, this took a couple of minutes but not that difficult. Now onto the wiring. Again, I would rather find a way to do this without visually inspecting if possible. I checked the continuity of the lugs without the wipers in place, and found that none of them made. Looking on the wiper side, lugs 2 and 3 are wired to feed rings. Lugs 4 through 8 did not make with anything else without wipers, so they were easy to trace and record using the tester. That's it for the wire map, now which are which? Since lug 2 and 3 go to the feeds, they had to be 56-11 or 57-11 respectively. Lugs 4 through 7 traced continuous to the magic screen feature disc and were easily identified. That meant lug 8 was 27-7. The only thing left to do was figure out which was which on lugs 2 and 3. I suspected that lug 2 was 57-11 because there were 7 ways to make with 27-7 from that path (untripped super relays), and only 6 ways with a super relay tripped. Testing to the red score booster trip confirmed this. So here's the rough draft and photos of the thing out of the machine.

Mixer 2 rough drawing.pdf
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#29 39 days ago

here's what the posted diagram looks like. Glad ya made the diagram ... I couldn't see a couple of the wires in the picture easily.

Thanks!

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#30 36 days ago

On to mixer #4. Finally! This one was tougher. There are 19 wires attached to the wiring disc and that requires the use of a lug bar to handle them all. The schematic locations for this one are at I-32 through I-34, I-29 and G-29, mostly in the same area. There's a mass of wires on this thing, and I get a bit nervous moving them around randomly if I don't have to. With my luck I'd pull something out and screw the whole thing up. So I decided to approach it by identifying the wires from the rivet side again and then flip the chart over so the wiring side gets posted. I started by cutting circuits that could give false reads again. For this one it meant isolating the A wiper sets on the green, red and yellow disks. After doing that, the only make I had on the lugs was "D" and "F". The schematic shows this at location G-29, and the continuity was caused through the select before 5th on the trip bank. Tripping that relay set opened the switch and the tester could be used for wire locations. After spending a few hours carefully going about that task, I had a blueprint with a few holes, i.e. rivets without a wire attribution. At this point, I turned to the wiring side and visually inspected to make sure I was correct, and confirmed that. This was tougher than it sounds as a few of the empty rivets were really hard to get to but a bit of patience paid off. The only thing left was to determine which wire was which, and that was pretty easy since they only trace to the three score discs except for one wire going to the extra ball trip #1 and one to the CU cam #7. So here is the final mixer #4 diagram as mapped.

There is an error in the Carnival Queen manual. On the red score unit lug 3 from the top left should read 10-8, and lug 4 should read 98-7. The documentation has them reversed.

After I completed the blueprint I checked my work against the posted documentation for mixer 4 on County Fair to see what, if anything, was different. There's a change in the handling of the D and F wires, they added another more complex circuit through mixer 2 to get to the same place and this is clear on the schematic. Otherwise, everything was the same except the rivet just above lug 15 in the third row labeled "15" on my diagram was labeled "16" on the County Fair on Phil's site. I looked at it again to confirm and the "15" is correct for the Carnival Queen.

As you can see in the photo of the mixer itself, wire 75-5 was disconnected from the lug. I'm not sure if this was done on purpose, but the end result was mixer #4 relay would not power and the game would have granted features and extra balls easier than normally expected. I know no one owned this game but an operator before me because I know its history, so that was sort of odd.

I haven't decided what to do, if anything, about mixer #3 yet. The documentation posted shows a shop engineering drawing, so I am inclined to believe it's correct and just move on.

Big kudos to Phil H, after going through this exercise I have way more appreciation for the effort he's put into helping all of us.

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Mixer 4 Draft.pdf

#31 36 days ago


Quoted from okorange:
........Big kudos to Phil H, after going through this exercise I have way more appreciation for the effort he's put into helping all of us.

Fully agree big kudos for Phil for the help and education. Also to you for helping document the Carnival Queen mixer. Thank you.

I have one bingo a Can Can that I totally rebuilt except for the mixer and control unit. It seems to work perfectly well except when getting a blue payout or a large replay payout it never stops paying. As I never get these payouts in a real game only with the glass off it probably is not that important in reality.

Love the game.

#32 36 days ago

attached is the factory blueprint for county fair (and roller derby according to the blueprint, but other docs I have says mixer 4 was w-937b on roller derby...the schem I have for roller derby matches w-937b).

yup, I blew it on the 16 vs 15 rivet on the county fair diagram on the site. I'll fix it.

if you're wondering why I redrew the blueprints to begin with, there's two main reasons. The biggest was the original quality. Because they are blueprints, the page background is usually non-uniform, and the worst ones were hard to read to begin with.

The second is a consequence of the first - file size. The attached blueprint scan was originally 44MB in color. Some crude processing and saving as a greyscale jpeg gets it down to around 4MB, which would have been good enough. In many cases, tho, the filtering needed to reduce the background noise significantly damages the text.

the third reason was to clarify a little - like the "feed" wipers are connected to the center ring. Also, the wiring changes on different games could be taken care of and the lug->wire mapping tables discarded (e.g. what wire is on lug 2 for each game).

since I needed to have templates to make drawings anyway, it was easier and faster to just redraw the diagrams - when I did it right. One of these years I'll post the original blueprint scans. The file size is less of an issue now.

I've never broken a spaghetti wire off a contact plate rivet by bending/pushing the wires. If one did break off, it'd be poorly connected. You don't want to bend them enough times to fatigue the metal, but that's not really a problem when you are just moving them around to see what's underneath.

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#33 35 days ago

Phil has also been a great help with my
Bikini pinball issues.
Can't thank him enough!!!
Terry K

#34 34 days ago

On to the mixers and everything else up there. Everything is detached from the back door now - easier to reach and deep clean. I am considering if I should go ahead and detach the stuff from the head as well so I can remove everything from the game and get the inside of the head cleaned really well. Then, if I do that, I may as well go ahead and get it painted while it's empty. Decisions...anyone ever tried to do this? I believe I may be certifiably crazy. Looking to do a really nice restoration on this one, though.

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#35 34 days ago

Oil soaked wood may be an issue Phil. Should be okay if you clean it up with Dawn/water - wipe her down with some alcohol after dry then prime - paint. On bingo's I stopped after the Dawn/water .. painted inside a few heads of flipper pins tho..

BTW, I booked a solo room at the show hotel for York ... best sign up soon matey.

#36 34 days ago

That photo is the mixers out of the machine on the bench under glass, no problems. Believe it or not my wife wants to come to the York show too. She enjoyed the Denver show this year and some of the pinball shoots we did for the Tommy show last year with my granddaughter. Looking forward to it! We'll make it an east coast vacation.

#37 32 days ago

if you want to take the stuff out of the head, it's pretty easy. There's a couple bolts on the bottom of the "hinges" that you can back out and lift the lamp panel off the pins. Unscrew the transformer, wood board for the plugs and the metal shelf and you've got almost everything loose. A few clamps, fuse block, convenience outlet, etc. and you are done.

if I remember right, the metal shelf and wood board need to go on in a specific order, so don't forget which has to go on first (like I did).

I'd do it with the head on the floor ... easier to hold the panel at an angle and slide the head wood along the floor while feeding the panel and bits out the back.

#38 32 days ago

did you have a picture of the front and front door that you can post please

#39 29 days ago

Butch, here's a photo but oh boy, it's rough. Hope this helps.

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1 week later
#40 22 days ago

Getting new stickers ready for the various units.

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#41 21 days ago

where'd you get those phil ... i want some. a mouse got a bunch from my gg

okay ... copied this ... thanks

any others ???

#42 21 days ago

Steve, I do them in Photoshop myself. Anything you need send me the old crap and I'll clean it up. I need a few others I am missing. I need the reflex unit if I can get it, so I'll probably end up using the label from another machine. This is the first time I've gone to this extreme but I had to completely redo the back door and paint it to fix the fire problem. It's easy to fix the labels but the coil numbers are what I need.

#43 20 days ago

thanks matey - it'll be a while before i'g get in there.
stupid mouse took just about all of 'em.
i think most of the coil part numbers are noted in the manuals..

#44 15 days ago

Back door almost done, just need to add the stickers. Every single point is cleaned, every stepper disassembled and cleaned up, new springs and some new parts on the steppers, mixers completely torn down and put back together with NOS clutches. I painted it blue after fixing the burned out section because I don't like the drab grey they used. I'm still deciding if I should get the head out on the ground for a good cleaning and paint while it's empty. The only thing left to complete the initial work before cosmetics is the guts of the cab.

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#45 15 days ago

Nice work @okorange!

#46 15 days ago

Thanks Nick, slow and steady gets it done.

#47 15 days ago

wow

#49 15 days ago

Thank and great job !!

#50 14 days ago

Fantastic work and looks amazing! Can't wait to see more.

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