(Topic ID: 184428)

Captain Fantastic Single Player Moves to All 4


By KansasPinball

2 years ago



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  • Latest reply 2 years ago by KansasPinball
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#1 2 years ago

Still learning these EM repairs, after learning a lot on my sole EM, Klondike.

I find I enjoy these EMs, so I just got this game. Had several issues, which I resolved by adjusting a few of the relays.

Game plays great overall now, but the final issue is when you press the start button, the
game is actually in a 4 player game. At least I think that is what it thinks.

The symptom is when the ball drains on a single player game, the machine doesn't advance the ball,
but rather, advances to the next player. It will allow all four players to have a turn, then when it returns
to player one, the ball count will advance to 2, and the game continues.

I've read so many posts, and I can't seem to figure out what area this could be from. I know in these areas,
the relays definitely interact with the score motor, but I'm not sure what would cause the game to think it is
a four-player game. It seems like the outhole switch should not update the player-up unit, but rather, the ball count unit?

I've gone through every relay in the bottom, and cleaned and gapped every one. I looked at the score motor, and
watched every row of switches actuate, as I slowly turned the wheel. I found 1 switch not contacting, and fixed that,
which probably helped in my other problems. The player up, ball-count, and coin unit all step up and reset as I think
they should. I definitely could have missed something, so I'm looking for some guidance on what area you think might
be the most likely to look, and why. Love the challenge, and have learned a ton about these...this is stumping me tho.

Doug

#2 2 years ago

What light is on of these four:

captain-fantastic-pinball_9966 (resized).jpg

#3 2 years ago

When the game starts, 1 player and ball 1 are lit. Also, player 1 score reel lights up.

#4 2 years ago

Follow-up question. How would I know, if I put the coin unit bakelite disk on 180 degrees out? I did take
the disk off, before realizing through reading, that you're supposed to mark which finger is up. The fingers
don't fall directly on top of the metal, when it resets. It bothered me, but I wonder if I've done, what others
have done in the posts I am still reading.

#5 2 years ago

If you know what stepper advances the '1-4 can play' lights, the 'ball in play' lights and the 'player up' lights, you should be able to manually advance them by pressing their advance solenoid plunger in, and confirm the lights in the backglass respond appropriately. Then manually press the reset solenoid and make sure they spring back home, and relight the first lamp.

It is very odd to me that it's going to player 2 with only "1" lit in the 1-4 can play group.

#6 2 years ago

Make sure the leaf switch on the player unit (in the bottom of the cabinet, behind the coin unit) is on the bottom of the trip pin they tend to get on top
on the Ballys and do what you are talking about

#7 2 years ago

Good video showing this:

#8 2 years ago

Great video Banjo. I watched it several times.
My switches are correct, and match the video. I tore apart and cleaned the Player unit in the head. I had read that was one possible cause of this type of weird problem. I cleaned the three Jones connectors in the backbox, since I'd read that could be a problem also.

Cody, I am able to press the solenoid and increment and reset the coin and ball count unit. The lights on the backbox correspond to
what I am pressing, so I have to think it isn't 180 degrees out.

It is really wanting me to be in the fire on this and learn a lot because now it locks on the center solenoid in the chime box at the front, and my Player 1 100 reel isn't firing, so my reset relays in the head are going nuts and score motor is running. I unplugged the Jones connectors in the bottom of the cabinet, to troubleshoot where the short could be, and the chime problem stopped. I plugged them in one at a time, and found that the plug on the right (smallest plug and viewed by standing at the front of the machine), is the one that starts the buzzing. So, I'll have to find out what I've hit, to cause that to lock on. I assume I've got a switch on the playfield that is stuck, locking on the coil. Definitely on the playfield, due to me stopping it with the disconnect of the Jones plug.

Frustrating, but I know I'm learning a lot more this way, than a quick, easy fix.
I feel close to the fix, just dancing around what is not firing the player unit perhaps. It just thinks that with the press of the
start button, it is a four-player game, yet the lights indicate 1 player, and 1st ball in play.

#9 2 years ago

One more follow-up for Cody. The game starts out at player 1, ball 1.
When the ball drains, it moves the score reels to player two, and scoring occurs there.
When the ball drains, it moves the score reels to player three and scoring occurs there.
When the ball drains, it moves the score reels to player four, and scoring occurs there.
Finally, it moves the score reels to player 1, the ball count updates to ball 2, and it continues.

#10 2 years ago

There are switches that open and close to tell the machine how many players are playing and *which to skip* regardless of player unit position and whatnot. I believe they are on the BACK of the player unit, but maybe not be on these Ballys. Let me look at the schematic for you. I have also seen them on the relay bank.

You are not experiencing an issue with the game starting or running in terms of it adding all of the players for you, as the game is behaving like you are supposed to only be playing a 1-player game. (backglass lights proper, since you said it says a "1-player game")

This is why this doesn't apply (to answer the question on the end of the post):

Quoted from cody_chunn:

If you know what stepper advances the '1-4 can play' lights, the 'ball in play' lights and the 'player up' lights, you should be able to manually advance them by pressing their advance solenoid plunger in, and confirm the lights in the backglass respond appropriately. Then manually press the reset solenoid and make sure they spring back home, and relight the first lamp.

It is very odd to me that it's going to player 2 with only "1" lit in the 1-4 can play group.

There is also a switch on the score motor which pulses 5 times which may be stuck open which would only advance the unit one position at a time. The thing with these EMs is that they will do what you tell them to do, so even if it "knows" it's not a multiplayer game, if it gets an incorrect "signal" to do something - it will do it. (i.e. allow a player unit to stop on player 2, 3, or 4 in a 1 player game)

  • [THE FOLLOWING DOES NOT APPLY IF THE GAME HAS BOTH A BALL COUNT UNIT AND A PLAYER UNIT LIKE WILLIAMS GAMES DO, GOTTLIEB GAMES COMBINED THEM SO I AM NOT SURE ABOUT BALLY]

The circuitry for this in EMs is very simple. A game is basically ALWAYS a 4-player game, except, when it has less players playing, it automatically skips over the empty spots. Think of it as it automatically draining the balls for the non-added players because that is basically what is happening. On a lot of games you can actually see it happening too as the lights cycle through on the reels.

A player unit ONLY spins one direction besides full reset at the beginning of a brand new game. (which is either in reverse or sometimes they just step themselves all the way around) So to get to player 1 ball 2 from player 1 ball 1, you have to ALWAYS go through 3 other players to continue regardless if they are playing or not. If they are playing, it will stop and let them play, and if they are not, they are stopped on only momentarily and then skipped over by the player unit advancing.

For a visual, this is how a 4-player player unit is laid out, it only spins one direction besides full reset as stated and each time it is advances it always has to go to the next one, and then skips over it if needed to get back to player 1:

Player 1 Ball 1 ->
Player 2 Ball 1 ->
Player 3 Ball 1 ->
Player 4 Ball 1 ->
Player 1 Ball 2 ->
Player 2 Ball 2 ->
Player 3 Ball 2 ->
Player 4 Ball 2 ->
Player 1 Ball 3 ->
Player 2 Ball 3 ->
Player 3 Ball 3 ->
Player 4 Ball 3 ->
Player 1 Ball 4 ->
Player 2 Ball 4 ->
Player 3 Ball 4 ->
Player 4 Ball 4 ->
Player 1 Ball 5 ->
Player 2 Ball 5 ->
Player 2 Ball 5 ->
Player 3 Ball 5 ->
Player 4 Ball 5

Two player machines vary, some use player units in the same manner where it skips over player 2, and some use alternating relays and a normal single-player ball count unit which never touch player 2 when they're not playing, which is a different unrelated system...

#11 2 years ago

Here is a Gottlieb example of a game skipping through the players which aren't playing, if you look at the backbox lighting you can see the scores light quickly as they are passed over:

(Starts at 1:00, I have setup the link to start here)

#12 2 years ago

Good video. It showed me how it works. You're filling in some blanks I have as a newbie.

Once you look at the schematics, I'll look into whatever you want me to. Still getting used to reading those and actively researching that.

At this point, I've looked at, gapped, and cleaned, every relay in the cabinet.
I've cleaned the Player unit in the head (shiny and lubed), and it functions correctly, using the 1 increment, and reset test of Clay's.
I've tightened the screws on the switch-stacks of all the score reels, which forced me to re-gap just about every one. I think me adjusting has affected the Player 1 score reel that won't reset, but I'll look into that tonight.
I cleaned the Jones plugs till shiny in the backbox, but not the ones in the cabinet yet.
I've watched every switch on the score motor to ensure every make/break and other switches act right, AND cleaned every one.

I'm definitely good with getting my hands dirty. I just can't seem to figure out what isn't incrementing the ball, but keeping it on player 1.

#13 2 years ago

Good deal on cleaning the Player Unit. Now you'll want to also clean the Coin Step Up Unit because
it tells the player unit that only one player is playing and not to step up. I need to check the schematics
to make sure, but I actually think the Player Reset relay should energize which keeps the Player Step Up
Unit from stepping up, and resets it back to player 1 at the appropriate time when more than 1 player
is playing.. The Coin Step Up Unit you'll want to clean which I believe is on the bottom board.. (T)

#14 2 years ago

Hi KansasPinball +
I also believe the Coin-Unit and the Player-Unit do not communicate well. What happens when You start a FOUR-Player-Game ? Can You play it ? What ... THREE, What ... TWO ?

IF (if) You can play a 4,3,2 player-game: Your problems are only "along my red lines".
Want to cheat a bit - establishing a permanent Jumper*** "my green line" ? With this You should be able to play a ONE-Player-game - ONLY a one-Player-Game.
Jumper*** from wire-grey-red to wire-orange-white.

Look at You Player-Unit - wire-color-grey-red is soldered-on onto a solder-lug, inside the unit is a connection to a wiper - when "first-up": The wiper rides on a rivet "having no connection". When it is "second player is playing": The wiper rides on a rivet having connection to wire-color-white-brown. When it is "third player is playing": The wiper rides on a rivet having connection to wire-color-white-yellow. When it is "fourth player is playing": The wiper rides on a rivet having connection to wire-color-orange-white. Greetings Rolf

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#15 2 years ago

Thank you for the responses! Every one of them gives me a new insight as to how this works.
So, I concentrated on the Player Up unit. I took it apart again, but my version of taking it apart, was to take
the spider finger disk off, sand, lube, etc. Well, as I was putting it together, I noticed the fingers were not quite
right as they sat on the metal. I touched the bakelite square, and it moved! I looked closer, and a screw was missing,
and the other was loose! I got a screw, re-aligned everything so the fingers were perfect, and voila' my 1-player game,
served me up a second ball on playe-one!

I fixed the other issues, but one more cropped up. Probably easy but I'm not seeing anything immediately pop out. When
the game resets, the player 1 reels, (100 and 1000), don't reset, so the relays clack away. I can manually manipulate the
relays for the reels themselves, set them to zero, and the game resets perfect. Scoring works fine also. But once it goes
to reset, nope!

Very strange, since scoring and manual manipulation of the score relay works, but not the reset relay. If I manually activate
the reset relay, after moving the drums, it will rest all but 100 and 1000. I looked at the switches on the relay and they look
good. I've gone over hundreds of relays in this game, trying to fix the main problem.

Ideas?

#16 2 years ago

You need to clean those 2 score reels most likely gummed up. pull them out and actuate by hand make sure they advance freely

#17 2 years ago

Hey Banjo,
I tightened the screws on every switch-stack, which in turn, caused me to have to re-adjust every single
reel. They were all working before, so I wonder if in pulling them in and out, I've broken a wire, bent a tab,
or something. But, to your point, I worked them all over and all move freely. Once I learned what the player-up unit did, I could activate the 10,100,1000 relays manually, then move the player-up unit a notch, and test the next player bank. Manual activation via the relay works for all the reels, but when the reset relay fires, these two reels don't move, while all the others do. Has to be something
between the relay and these reels, since manually activating the individual relay works.

The player-up unit problem was tough to find for sure. I feel this should be easier, but I probably just jinxed myself.

Doug

#18 2 years ago

Yup, you want to clean the score reels and also, each reel has contacts. There's a set in each
that should be closed on every number until it hits zero. It should open on "0" and only zero.
You'll want to make certain that those set of switches are cleaned and making good contact with each
other and then opens once the reel reaches "0"..

#19 2 years ago

After going through these so many times, I've found that all switches are open at zero.
Numbers 1-8, I found that the first two switches, from the top, are closed, but the third, the lowest, is open.
Finally, on the lowest, it will close, along with the other two above it, on the number 9.

So Zero = open, open open
1-8 = close, close, open
9 = close, close, close

Doug

#20 2 years ago

Hi Doug
I sometimes like to "sneak-in a fault" into the pin - just for me to learn about the pin and to check my "understanding".
See the JPG - want to try (?): Sneak-in a stripe of paper in-between the switchblades of Number-1-Reset-Relay - the switch for to reset Player-1-Score-Drum-10-to-90. The stripe of paper makes this switch FAULTY always open - the Score-Drum does no longer reset. (((Maybe the pin comes into an endless loop "trying to reset"))).

OK - then pull the stripe of paper out - then try to sneak-in a stripe of paper into Switch on the Score-Drum in-between blade-with-wire-orange-black and blade-with-wire-red-black, the stripe of paper makes this switch FAULTY always open - the Score-Drum does no longer reset. (((Maybe the pin comes into an endless loop "trying to reset"))).

OK - then pull the stripe of paper out - You are familiar with the area - investigate on Your problematic 100's and 1000's Score-Drums. Greetings Rolf

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#21 2 years ago

The schematics are still tough to read, especially in the scoring section. Hard to tell where things are going.

But, after talking with everyone, I came home tonight, and concentrated on the 100 and 1000 score reel. With some
more switch adjustments, I got the 1000 drum to work, but not the 100. I never realized there was a circuit board behind
the score reel on some of them. I took the 100 drum apart, sanded the points and traces, lubed it, and put it back together.
I started a game, and voila' it worked!

So I guess it wasn't able to make a good connection.

Now the machine is fully working.

Summary for future searches:
Game would not put score on the reels or kick the ball out, after counting bonus - Bonus relay was badly out of adjustment
100 chime coil and 100 reel locked on when starting a game - switch on playfield got bumped and was touching. Re-adjusted it.
Game would not advance ball on single player, but would advance to next player - fingers on player up-were off, due to bakelite being loose.
One reel would not reset to zero - took entire assembly apart, sanded traces and switches and lubed.
Adjusted and cleaned just about every switch and relay, including the score motor....

Doug

#22 2 years ago
Quoted from KansasPinball:

Summary for future searches:
Game would not put score on the reels or kick the ball out, after counting bonus - Bonus relay was badly out of adjustment
100 chime coil and 100 reel locked on when starting a game - switch on playfield got bumped and was touching. Re-adjusted it.
Game would not advance ball on single player, but would advance to next player - fingers on player up-were off, due to bakelite being loose.
One reel would not reset to zero - took entire assembly apart, sanded traces and switches and lubed.
Adjusted and cleaned just about every switch and relay, including the score motor....
Doug

Useful thread. Should help me with my problems with Captain Fantastic. I have a number of symptoms:
1) 2 chimes permanently energized,
2) the 10's reel is not recording any score,
3) the 3 small switches on the playfield are not recording any score. I am assuming they only score 10 points. Probably linked to the 10's score reel not working,
4) cannot get more than 1 player to register for a game,
5) the right outlane save gate is not opening,
6) Pop bumper not working.

Cheers

#23 2 years ago

Skippy,
I feel your pain. But in reading your symptoms, I immediately start going through images in my head of relays and switches.
My chime for 100 was locked, and it was a switch on the left edge of the playfield. Makes sense, since the chime can't go on, unless the circuit is completed.

On the score reels, I tell ya, they have to be set right, or cleaned, or they simply don't work.

I'll tell you another situation I just had. I got minty fresh drop-targets All excited I powered the game up, after install, and my drop targets would score as they dropped, but would not reset. My heart sank. But, I turned it off, and using my meter, I made sure each switch was making contact. Amazingly, some were not, but even more crazy, two looked like they totally made contact, yet no matter what, it wouldn't show as a short on the meter. I finally bent the end of the switch out a bit flatter to contact the other switch on a different spot, and voila, both started working, using that technique, and the bank reset!

On the score reels, I learned a lot about testing. A great way to see if things are working, is to simply tap the score relay by hand. So in the back, middle area on the left, you will find the 10, 100, and 1000 relays. With the game on, tap them. Your reels should fire. If not, power off, take the relay OUT, and clean and gap both sides of the switches. You can also check on your resets, to see if the score reels are getting the correct connection by using the score relays to get the reels off zero, then pressing the reset relays to see if your score reels start to reset to zero. At zero, they will stop, and the reset relay will do nothing. I noticed that there are two reset relays, that affect 2 score reels each. Left does the 1st and 3rd....right does the 2nd and 4th.

I learned on the reels that the switches must open and close correctly.
Zero = Open, Open, Open
1-8 = Closed, Closed, Open
9 = Closed, Closed, Closed.

I had all mine set correctly, and then I decided to tighten the switch stacks. MANY were loose and I was quite pleased with myself for finding these loose, sloppy switch-stacks. My elation faded quickly, as I realized the tightening of the switch-stacks, destroyed most of the switch gaps on the reels! Sooooo...I took out every single reel, painstakingly adjusted every one of them (that needed it), and now I know they are ALL adjusted and tight.

I learned that the steppers are sensitive to old grease. They either don't increment correctly, or more likely, when the reset coil fires, it doesn't reset to zero position. Cleaning was fairly easy. I used alcohol and then lubed them, and life was good.

I turned it on last night, and my 100 chime is locked on. I turned it off and watched a movie Lol! But, going back to it, I will look for a switch I was a bit too overexuberant in setting, and find the one that is touching, and closing that circuit. I like it to play "hot," so I gap my switches close, especially on the slingshots.

My final hurdle, is the chime box. I got a rebuild kit but I screwed it all up, and it sounds like crap. I learned from that, especially that you don't tighten it down really hard, (crushing the brass inside). So, I have a new kit coming, and this time, I will be much more sensitive to how tight I screw them down.

It can be VERY frustrating, and the schematics are slowly becoming more clear, but they still are daunting. As my second EM, and probably third EM repair, this machine was amazingly hard for me to fix. But as your immersed in the frustration, and reading, and posting, and measuring, and eye-balling....you realize after it's fixed, how much you learned, because it WAS a hard to fix issue(s). My purchase of Captain Fantastic was brought on my my realization that EMs are not slow and klunky like I thought, and the fact that I learned to repair a couple hard issues on my Klondike, gave me the confidence to buy another. I knew this one had issues, but they turned out to be much tougher than I thought.

Good luck!

Doug

#24 2 years ago

Hi Doug,

Thanks for the encouragement. This is my first EM game and only my third restore. When I got it, before striping it down, the first thing I did was put in a step down transformer (240-110v), power up and check all was working. Which it was. So knowing everything was working, I started striping the playfield, cleaned the inserts, bulbs, score reels and back box, re-built the flippers including coils, and replacing coil sleeves. Doing all this, I must have moved things. Still, it is an enjoyable challenge. The video of the Fronter EM was very insightful. I will be referring back to that a lot! I cannot wait to check a few more things out today.

BTW how are the chimes numbered, small to large? At the moment when a game is started, the middle and large ones look to be charged as the plungers are tight up against the chine.

Cheers

#25 2 years ago

Sorry, I haven't checked back here in a bit, and it doesn't seem to notify me.

I'm no guru...that's why I come here also. But, the chimes should never be stuck up.
They fire for a second, make a sound, and drop back down. So, unless they are firing,
they should all be sitting on the bottom plate, ready to be momentarily fired.

#26 2 years ago

No problem Doug and I meant the Freedom video. Watched it a few times now.

As you have a working machine, I was just looking for some information on which chimes fire when which switch is closed and how they release to the score reels. I would ask rotordave to have a look at his machine, who lives near me, but he is in the US at the moment.

Cheers

#27 2 years ago

I'm not exactly sure which switches fire which coil on the chime unit, but I'm not 100% sure what
you mean by release to the score reels. For a guess, I would say as the chime rings, the score ticks up that button's
value.

I'll run in there real quick and take the glass off. Now I'm curious.....

Ok, I can't upload a picture here. I don't think I've paid enough dues, so I'll try to describe it.

First, the chimes are:
Left is 10, middle is 100, and right is 1000, looking in from the coin door.

Very top star rollovers are 10 and chime the left metal bar for 10 points.
3 left and 3 right star rollovers are 100 and ring the middle metal bar for 100.
At the top left, behind the rubber is 10
Round standup switches at the top are red, and they are 100.
Left rollover at the top is 100 or 300 depending on if lit. Roll over this a few times, and you'll hear the 1000 chime as it hits 1000 pts.
Middle rollover lane is 100.
Right rollover land is again, 100 or 300 depending on if lit.
Switch on the right, next to the red standup switch is 10...behind the rubber.
Pop-Bumpers are 10 or 100 depending on which is lit.
On the left, by the drop targets, two switches behind the rubber are 10 for the top one above the drops and 100 behind them.
Drops are 500 each.
Left lower rollover is 100.
Left sling is 10
Right sling is 10
Right inner lower rollover is 300
Right outer lower rollover is 100

So, you hear the 10 chime and the 100 chime a lot...and once in a while, you'll hear the 1000 as the score reels roll to the next 1000pts.
You can hear the 1000 chime a good amount, during bonus count.

Hope that is what you needed.

Doug

#28 2 years ago

Thanks Doug. Just what I needed. I have resolved my problem - partially dismantled pop bumpers had a closed switch.

Two follow up questions, of you do not mind.

1) is the maximum bonus you can score 15,000? The bonus counter stops at 15 where there is an oversize tooth that stops the bonus score advancing any further.
2) how does the save gate open? What triggers it? I can't seem to get mine to activate by play field switches.

Will check on the net as well.

Cheers

Warwick

#29 2 years ago

Answering quickly, and I just woke up....
Yes, there is a limit on the bonus. I thought it was strange also, but I think that is all the bonus stepper can hold.

The gate...I would have to look but the roll-over, when lit, will trigger a relay that holds on, and
the gate will open.

I haven't had any issues with that, so I can't throw out a lot of info on it, but as I am learning more,
I would start at the gate solenoid, and work your way back, looking on the schematic at each item
that has to be activated, in order for that gate to open.

#30 2 years ago

In looking at the schematics, I would need guidance on the ball gate myself. It involves a lot of things.
The ball gate isn't active, until I think, an alternating relay activates its circuit. Sometimes the rollover is lit for the gate,
and sometimes it isn't.

So the gate circuit needs to be activated, then the rollover needs to be triggered, which I believe triggers the ball-gate relay,
and also the score motor is involved. Then when you roll over the outer lower right rollover, you score more points, and de-activate
the gate relay. Too complicated for my small amount of schematic experience.

I've been trying to get more info on how to read these schematics. I've found one good video, where a tech goes through an actual
schematic and shows how certain switches are on, and why. I'll post the link for you also.

Another really informative video is here:

#31 2 years ago

Hi Doug and Skippy2904
the manufacturers liked to have some action on the playfield - maybe changing bumpers lightet left-right-left-right- or turning a light on --- then off --- then on etc. See http://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=438&picno=52054&zoom=1 now and then the middle lane is lighted and invitates You "HERE You can open the gate".
Many such features are operated by an "Change Relay" or "Alternate Relay" and in Your pin it is called "Alternator-Relay". It is made pulling and stays pulling for some seconds - then it is made non-pulling and stays non-pulling for some seconds. And the feeding electricity to the Alt.-Relay is done by a switch (sometimes open - sometimes closed) on the "00 to 90 Unit" - often called "Number-Match-Unit" - a Stepper with 10 different stable positions. On the axis there are some teeth actuating the switch --- or wipers on the bakelite handle it: Connection - no connection - connection - no connection etc so the Alt.-Relay is made pull-in / not pulling-in.

Skippy2904 - do the bumpers in You pin change "lit / unlit" ? Do You ever get the "invitation light": The ball rolling through HERE opens the Gate" ?

Lift the playfield (be cautios: 50 VOLTS AC can kill You) - look at the mechanics on the underside of the playfield - the "Gate" is actually a relay - has a coil and one (maybe 2,3,4) switch(es). A short wire runs from "one side of the COIL to 'Switch mounted on the relay' " --- this is the so-called "Self-Hold-Switch of the relay". Have the pin running (a ball is in play) - take a Screwdriver with INSULATED handle and hold the tip of the Screwdriver at the TWO Switchblades of this Self-Hold-Switch - You make connection - question: Does the Gate-Relay pulls-in and stays pulling ? Means: Does the Gate open and stays open ?

In the JPG You see: "1" is closed (accidentally), "2" does close as the ball rolls through the lane, "3" pulls and so closes "4 the Self-Hold-Switch" - the "3" stays pulling.
When You use the gate: "5" is opened through its pulling relay - the Score-Motor is made running so "7" also opens - no more Self-Hold-Connection - "3" let go and so "4" also opens - feature has finished.
When You do not use the gate: When You then loose the ball and the pin changes to next ball / next player: The Outhole-Relay is made pulling and the Score-Motor is made running --- the Gate closes. Greetings Rolf

0Captn-Fantastic-Work-15 (resized).jpg

#32 2 years ago
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

Skippy2904 - do the bumpers in You pin change "lit / unlit" ? Do You ever get the "invitation light": The ball rolling through HERE opens the Gate" ?

Thanks Rolf,

I still have 2 bumpers missing from the playfield. Waiting for parts, so no the bumper lights do not change. The front bumper is always lit. That one is on the playfield. I do not get the invitation light at the top and the "300" on the left and right rollover lanes are always lit.

Once the parts arrive, I am assuming these features will then work.

One thing, when I close the self hold switch, the diverter gate opens but the relay is very buzzy! Not sure if that is normal.

#33 2 years ago

Rolf,
In post #31, I understand numbers 1 through 4. I don't understand 5 through 7 very well.

Also, how do you know which letter on the Score Motor diagram, corresponds to 7B? I ask because
I'm trying to figure out how 7B works. I'm trying to figure out how it turns on, and stays on, and breaks the
connection. On the diagram, it shows CAMS on the left column, and numbers across the top. My guess would be
0 would be A, 1 would be B, etc. So to look at 7B, it shows a white box. I'm guessing that is open, and a black
square indicates a closed switch?

Thanks for helping us learn how to read these schematics. I feel I have to understand this, or I'll never be able to
troubleshoot effectively.

#34 2 years ago

Hi Skippy2904
here http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index.htm then http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index3.htm#buzz --- per definition "what is a relay (?)" the "Gate-Goodie" is an Relay while the thing mounted on the Coin-Door (another noisy thing called Coin-Lockout-Coil) is "only" a coil.
The definition of "relay" is: An mechanical thing that has a coil and the coil (getting current) through magnetic force makes (at least) ONE or 2,3,4 ... electrical Switch(es) close or open. And the noisy Coin-Lockout-Coil moves a rod so coins thrown-in at a "not good moment" are reflected towards Coin-Back-department. NO SWITCH on the Coin-Lockout-Coil therefore it is NOT a Relay.

The Gate-Goodie does have at least ONE Switch - the Switch to "have Self-Hold-Current, Self-Hold-Circuitry" so it is called Gate-RELAY.
Pinrepair talks about the "Spring pulling back the armature" --- this spring and the fluttering AC-magnetic-field FIGHT on "possession of the armature". But a GATE-Relay has the mechanical stuff (we like it - the Gate-Function) --- so it is a tricky thing to "fumble on the retaining spring" on a Gate-Relay. Greetings Rolf

#35 2 years ago

Hi Doug
here http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=EM_Repair then http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=EM_Repair#Bally_Score_Motor and nice http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=File:BallyScoreMotor3-4View.jpg (from left to right the Cams "SCM-1", 2,3,4,5 ...). Here http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=File:Bally_Motor_Switch_Levels.JPG on a given cam: The levels - we see (cam 1) SCM-1A, SCM-1B, SCM-1C, SCM-1D.
Here http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=File:Bally_score_motor_timing_1975.jpg there is the "timing chart" - the cams are shown top-down --- from left to the right is shown a FULL revolution. The definiton of on Bally and Williams "a TURN" is "HALF a revolution, turn of 180 degrees". Position "0" is "at home, Motor is not running" - then positions "1", "2", "3", "4", "5", "6", "7" comes one after the other as the Motor makes a turn (((of 180 degrees))) - and the end of a turn is: Reaches again "position 0" and stops.
Unfortunately the "timing chart in pinwiki" does NOT match the "picture of the Bally Score-Motor in pinwiki" --- they write: Picture shows the motor of Night Rider - we must look at ipdb-schematics: http://mirror2.ipdb.org/files/1677/Bally_Night_Rider_Schematic.pdf - at ipdb-schematics-A/B-1/2 is the corresponding timing chart - TWELVE cams are shown.

Something rather seldom: Look in the schematics at "cam 12" --- see "actuated on left-0,1,2,3,4,5" then NOT actuated on "left-6,7,right-0,1,2,3,4,5" then "actuated on left-6,7".
Therefore on Nightrider the "cam 12" is NOT (180 degrees) symmetrical. ALL other cams are (180 degrees) symmetrical. The reason / purpose of the cam-12: It has the function of (other solution would be) "Alternating-Relay, Change-Relay".

Lets look in the ipdb-schematics of Capt. Fantastic at Schematics-A/B-35/36/37. ELEVEN cams - everything is (180 degrees) symmetrical. The "cam 2" does pulse all it switches (SCM-2A, SCM-2B, SCM-2C, SCM-2D, (maybe -E, maybe -F (?)) - "cam 2" pulses FIVE times per turn. "Cam 7" actuates its switchstack ONCE in a turn --- rather to the end of a turn - at positon-5.

Lets look again at post-31, JPG --- the "green-1,2" I call "Initial-Current, Initial-Circuitry" so the "green-3" starts pulling --- as it pulls: The switches are moved and the closing "green-4" enables "Self-Hold-Current, Self-Hold-Circuitry". AS SOON as "green-4" closes / is closed: "green-1,2" can open.

Let us let roll the ball through the open gate --- You will be rewarded with some points - the "Bottom Lane Gate 300 Relay" is made pulling (it establishes its own Self-Hold-Circuitry) - the "green-5" does open - NOW the "green-3" STILL pulls (Self-Hold-Circuitry through "green-4,7"). But the "Bottom Lane Gate 300 Relay" makes /made the Score-Motor do a turn --- so time comes when the Motor actuates "cam 7" - SCM-7B opens and the Gate-Relay (green-3) looses Self-Hold-Current and quits pulling so "green-4" opens.
Bally made this (SCM-7) to have a "delay / time elapses" - Ball rolls through the open gate --- after a short period of time the gaten then closes.
This "delay / time elapses" may not be needed when the pin simply changes to the next ball / next player (pulling Outhole-Relay - the Outhole-Relay also makes the Motor do a turn) --- but it is there - we must accept this as a fact. Greetings Rolf

P.S.: Do You have faults in the pin ? - Write.

#36 2 years ago

Rolf,
I don't have a problem with Captain Fantastic. All issues have been fixed.
I was asking to get more details on how some of the functions worked, and more importantly,
to get another example from you on how to follow the flow through the schematics.

You have really good grasp on how to figure out the schematics, but for me they are still very
confusing. Solid state machines is what I am used to, and I haven't figured out a good method of
troubleshooting with the schematics yet, because it seems the switches from the relays are scattered
around, and I have a problem trying to figure out what state the switches are in, especially if the machine
doesn't complete a reset, and kick the ball into the shooter lane.

Thank you for taking the time to write a large post. I am going to be going through it and follow your logic.
I've read many of the repair guides, but I'll follow your links, and see if I can get more information out of them,
now that I know more about repairing them.

Doug

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