the linked game is the '77 SS home model and not the '76 Capt. Fantastic and The Brown Dirt Cowboy EM your working on

it has been over a year I worked on Capt. Fantastic I gave my Brother and need to re-wrap my head around the control logic.

I would suspect that the ball count unit was thinking game was over.

The Game over RE is a mechanically latched relay, If you look at the schematic it should only be energised when SW 3C or 4B on the score motor closes. So it only energies for 1 second.
If it is energised during the whole reset cycle, I would be check these SW on the score motor.

The GO trip should occur when you first turn on the game thought the Lock Relay. It can also happen when either the Player unit or Ball count unit is at zero position and the Coin RE is energised. And
at the end of the game thought the ball count unit.

Check that SW on the Coin RE Wire colour Grey/ Black and Green /Red. Should be open.

Hi dfrazer, Chrisbee +
I like to "work" in MS-Paint and then show snippets of schematics for "to read schematics". Chrisbee wrote it - here the JPG to it.

The Game-Over-Relay is like the Main Power Toggle Switch: Your finger applies power and the switch latches - You no longer apply power - the switch "stays, is" latched. Some time later Your finger applies power and the switch trips - You no longer apply power - the switch "stays, is" tripped.

A fully running pin You happily play - "my red A stuff" takes place - at end of a game the pin makes the relay TRIP. The pin cuts power to the Trip-Coil because the relay (armature moves) opens "my red 1" and then (no electrical, magnetical power): Relay stays tripped.

Rather seldom the "my red B stuff" may take place --- You play a game but You play "no good" - You then say: I (or: We) do NOT want to play the remaining balls --- I (or: We) want to start a NEW game. This You can do on "Ball-2, 3, 4, 5 in a single player game" / "multi-player game: After the first player has played the first ball and the pin has stepped to 2nd player, of course: also later in the game".

Very rare is "my red C stuff": Maybe You are playing a game - someone yells: Quickly come --- in the middle of a game You TOGGLE-OFF the pin and go to the person calling. Some time later You come back and toggle-on the pin - NOW the "red C stuff" takes place (((Bally wants to have the pin in "Game-Over" for to start a NEW game.)))

Your problem is: Soon after starting a new game: Game-Over-Relay trips - fault can be in "red A" or "red B" or "red C". Question: Does the fault show-up AT THE TIME the Reset-Relay quits pulling ? (See my "red 2 Switch" - when the Reset-Relay let go: Switch closes).

A good idea is "before starting a new game": Manually put some points on a Score-Drum of Player-1 - so the pin has work to do (resetting the Score-Drum) and You have time to look at the Reset-Relay.

Another question - at the time the fault shows up: Is the Coin-Relay still pulling ?

Trouble-shooting - lets say You "waive, relinquish" of functionality "my red B": Locate the "Switch on Coin-Relay that closes when the relay pulls - soldered-on is wire-Grey-Black, wire-Green-Red. Sneak-in a stripe of paper to make this switch truely open (((has accidentally a drop of solder fallen at the solder points of this switch - making faulty connection ?)))

Lets say You "waive, relinquish" of functionality "my red C" - You keep in mind - and You do it: EVERY TIME You want to start a new game: MANUALLY TRIP the Game-Over-Relay before starting a new game. Locate the "Switch on Lock-Relay that opens when the relay pulls, soldered-on is wire-Yellow, wire-Green-Red. Sneak-in a stripe of paper to ... ((( ? )))

Then manually put some points on a Score-Drum, TRIP the Game-Over-Relay, then start a new game and WATCH the Reset-Relay - and watch out for fault of "Game-Over-Relay trips (?)" -
IF (if) "Yes, still the fault": The fault must be in " my red A stuff".

From post-1 I know: You do have more problems to fix --- but lets start on the "Game-Over-Relay-Problem". Write about "insight, perception" on Game-Over-Relay-Problem - and (hopefully) fixed problem: What is the next problem, greetings Rolf

0Captn-Fantastic-Work-04 (resized).jpg

The upper contact is shorted...the grey wire is touching the other switch and maybe even the bare metal behind it.
10 pointer, the other ones are tied together for one function, I think 500 points, that means two wires on the left (common and switch) and the other one for the function.
The bare leads are cheap but working right.

Hi dfrazer
I would like to troubleshoot from the beginning. The pin is toggled-off - no relay is pulling. You toggle-on and the Lock-Relay pulls-in and stays pulling. On the Coin-Door You may have the Coin-Lockout-Coil (looks like a relay) - the Coin-Lockout-Coil is allowed to pull.
Depending on "You have waived, relinquished my red 'C', see post-6" the Game-Over-Relay-TRIP-Coil maybe pulls for a very short time - this coil is not allowed to pull, pull, pull.

The Ball-Index-Relay does pull-in (and stay pulling) when the TILT-Relay pulls - I do not want the Tilt-Relay to pull (as the relay pulling causes more trouble) -
THE VERY FIRST thing to do is to end the "faulty pulling" of Your Tilt-Relay. The easyest way is to unsolder wire-color-yellow-brown - unsolder from the coil - tape the bare end of the wire (unsoldered) and put a tag on the wire "has to be soldered-on at Coil of Tilt-Relay" --- when we have fixed all the rest: We come back to this wire.
May want to try - check all the Tilt-Switches "TRUELY OPEN (?)" - look here http://www.stevechannel.com/tiltmechanism.htm the last picture shows the Ball-Roll-Tilt. IF (if, if) the ball rolls towards the Backbox and closes its switch: Tilt forever ...
Second-last picture shows a Playfield-Tilt-Switch, first picture shows the pendulum Tilt.
Attention: Some special tilt switches called "SLAM TILT" are meant to be closed - and open when slamming.

Please make Your Tilt-Relay "not pulling-in when You toggle-on the pin" - then write an description of "where are we at" and we walk through the Start-up procedure fixing one then another etc. .
My goal is: You shall "play" a One-Player game - then we look at other stuff.
I remember well the old times (arcade rooms) and the Capt. Fantastic --- a very good pin. Greetings Rolf

Hi dfrazer
reading schematics is tricky - post-10, JPG-2, left part --- Yes, You are on stuff we want to look at.
ONCE You have reached "wire-YELLOW": Never fork-off into another wire - stay on wire-YELLOW as it is the returning line to the transformer.

In the first JPG You show stuff from the manual - we must accept: The Startup-Description is NOT detailled / NOT precise - a lot of stuff happening: Simply not mentioned in the Startup-Description - WE MUST look in the schematics to see every (tiny little) step of the Startup.

Before we go to the very beginning of the Startup-Procedure looking at everything: An "easy to do test" - maybe (maybe) we are lucky (?)

Start a new game - the Score-Drums do reset - pin comes to "idle" - the pin simply does stay there doing nothing - Score-Motor does not turn --- we would like the pin to kick the ball over to the Shooter Alley.
NOW gently press the armature / anchor plate of the Outhole-RELAY - You simulate "coil gets current and starts pulling" - You press and IMMEDIATELY after: You let go --- QUESTION: Does the Outhole-RELAY STAYS pulling for a while - the Score-Motor makes a turn of 180 degrees and then stops and the Outhole-RELAY quits pulling (and hopefully: The ball is kicked over to the shooter alley ?) ?
Please write about.

In my JPG "green A" is the non-functioning "Initial-Current" flowing - but You manually press the armature - so "B" pulls-in and establishes "Self-Hold-Current" through "C" and "D".

There is more to my JPG - but for now I wait for the answer to "are we lucky and the Outhole-Relay pulls-in (when You move the armature), stays pulling - then let go --- Score-Motor makes a turn of 180 degrees (hopefully the ball is kicked over") (?) We then walk through my JPG, greetings Rolf

0Captn-Fantastic-Work-05 (resized).jpg

Hi dfrazer
no luck with the Outhole-Relay*** - and problems with the Game-Over-Relay. A fully running pin does handle everything correct from the very beginning - lets try to bring Your pin to fully running - we start at the very beginning - we take the startup-procedure in the manual (ipdb, page-5, 1D.) and start with point

0. The pin is toggled-off. The game before has ended abnormal - the Game-Over-Relay is in Position "latched" (((on manual-page-16 we see "tripped" - put Your Game-Over-Relay to "latched"))).
We toggle-on the pin and the Lock-Relay pulls-in and stays pulling forever. ALSO the Game-Over-Relay moves - it trips.
Look at post-6, JPG - my "red C" - a Normally-Closed Switch on the Lock-Relay, the switch is open when the relay pulls. Soldered-on is wire-color-yellow and wire-color-41-green-red.

IF (if) Your Lock-Relay pulls-in and stays pulling - BUT the Game-Over-Relay does NOT trip: Have the pin toggled-on, Lock-Relay is pulling - take a Screwdriver (insulated handle) and touch the TWO switchblades of this switch "at the same time, both" with the tip of the screwdriver - so You make connection through this switch, through the tip of the screwdriver --- question: Does the Game-Over-Relay trips ?

"No - the Game-Over-Relay does NOT trip": We must use one, maybe two Jumper-Wire(s) to proceed testing.
"Yes - the Game-Over-Relay trips when the tip of the Screwdriver closes the switch": Toggle-off the pin (better: Unplug the main power cord, Safety Reasons) --- inspect this switch - contact points clean ? May want to adjust the stationary blade (the blade NOT moved) - adjust this blade towards the moved blade so when the Lock-Relay pulls-in and opens this switch: This switch shall open LATE (((Of course: It shall open - BUT: LATE))). Then try the whole test again - does the Game-Over-Relay now trips when You toggle-on the pin ?, greetings Rolf

P.S. - Outhole-Relay***: I am happy that manually activating the Outhole-Relay MADE the Score-Motor do a turn of 180 degrees. A question: DID You do "manually activating the Outhole-Relay" and Your Game-Over-Relay was "LATCHED" ? (for that test "manually activating the Outhole-Relay": Game-Over-Relay MUST be latched).
Another question - At the time You did the test "manually activating the Outhole-Relay": Could You press a flipper-button and the flipper-bat did MOVE ?

Hi dfrazer
hmm - I grumble / mutter a bit --- I make suggestions on "what to try" - and I wait for answers, well.

I refer to post-6, post-13 - the stuff with the Game-Over-Relay trip or no trip - and the screwdriver ...
From what I read in post-14: You manually close the switch on Game-Over-Relay (Your picture: Leftmost switch wire-red-white, wire-yellow-black) --- this is post-6, JPG the "Switch named red 1" - because "Switch named red-C on Lock-Relay - see post-6" - is faulty closed, Lock-Relay pulls BUT switch red-C does not open: The Game-Over-TRIP-Coil gets current and the Game-Over-Relay trips. Greetings Rolf

P.S.: Good - You located the problem on "greater area around Game-Over-Relay"

Hi Dave
the last paragraph in post-16 makes me ask about "history of pin / fault(s) showing up". I thought You could play the pin --- then fault. BUT NOW I believe: Pin was bought "not running" and even worse "preowner tried to fix and made mistakes". I here show a JPG I made for "taking about precious Self-Cleaning of contact-points in a relay (when playing the pin)" --- may want to read about "Self-Cleaning": https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/1965-bowl-a-strike-crazy-at-startup#post-3231326 .

Look at the JPG - I show an Normally-Open-Switch. The top blade (orange) is moved when the relay pulls - and (by pulling) the orange blade closes to "blue blade" - then they travel together some distance - the armature comes to "halt / stop / end" - Switch is securely closed.
Your Lock-Relay MUST have an Normally-CLOSED-Switch. Switch shall / must be closed when the relay is not pulling. When the relay starts pulling: The two blades travel a short distance together - then the moved blade is moved away from the stationary blade --- the switch opens and stays securely open.
The preowner has taken apart the Lock-Relay-Switch (cleaned it) - put it together WRONG. The Switch on Lock-Relay (post-6, red-C) MUST OPEN when the relay pulls.

Reading schematics sometimes is tricky - Yes, the schematics is drawn Power-OFF. BUT: With power-on we started a single-player-game - RESET is done, Ball is KICKED over to the shooter alley - NOW we toggle-OFF the pin. Simple relays (having one coil mounted) let go / quit pulling --- we see in the schematics a switch (of this relay) drawn open - we look in the pin and we see "switch as drawn in my JPG". When we see a switch in the schematics drawn closed --- we look in the pin and see "Switch is closed when the relay is not pulling".

The problem of understanding the schematics on behalf of "Switch on Game-Over-Relay, post-6, red-1": Steppers and Interlock-Relays do NOT reset when we toggle-off the main power --- they stay "as is" as the result of "starting a single-player-game" - they stay "as is" not bothering when we toggle-off the power after the resetting.

A switch on a relay has only / exactly TWO states of "beeing in state-Alpha / beeing in state-Beta" --- there is no "state-Gamma". The "leftmost switch, JPG in post-14, wire-color-red-white, wire-color-yellow-black" is "post-6, switch-red-1" - it must be open when the relay is tripped - it must be closed when the relay is latched ((( there is no third state-Gamma))).
(((To hinder the Game-Over-Relay faulty tripping when resetting at latching the Game-Over-Relay: The "Switch on Lock-Relay (mounted in the circuitry)" is open as the Lock-Relay steady pulls)))

Please take apart the "Switch on Lock-Relay" and put it together as an Normally-CLOSED-Switch --- then adjust the switch to open late*** - sure, it shall open when the Lock-Relay pulls - but it shall open at the end of travel of the moved blade. Then do testing and write about, greetings Rolf

P.S. - late***: It is a tricky / not so pleasing solution for the problemS "when toggling-on the pin": Lock-Relay shall pull-in and stay pulling - also: A shot of electricity must be fired to the "TRIP-Coil on Game-Over-Relay".

N-O-Self-Cleaning (resized).jpg

Hi Dave
thanks for work / testing and the description. I hope You agree when I read:
... so I then TOGGLE-ON / fire up the game. ... 2b "Pushing the Replay-Button" makes the Start-up sequence begin ... Score-Reels reset - they all are resetted AND THEN THE RESET-RELAY QUITS PULLING. At exactly this time 4. The Game-Over-Relay (faulty) TRIPS.

BEFORE You wade through the following text - short question (short answer ?) - When the pin does the beginning of the Start-up: DOES THE BALL-COUNT-UNIT R E S E T ? IF (if) it does NOT reset: Faulty connection through "my red A" ...

OK - in a "post to come" I will write about "keep-on looking at the mystery 'why does the G.O.-Relay faulty trips ?' ". My main goal in troubleshooting always is: In some way the owner shall be able to "kind of play a One-Player-Game" - we then look at other problems one by one.

So here I write about a "work-around" so we can look to have You "kind of play a One-Player-Game" - lets proceed in the Start-up sequence and look if You can play:

My suggestion - We CUT*** the Power-side-Connection of the Game-Over-Relay-TRIP-Coil and we do manually actuate the TRIP-Side of the relay at the (few) times we need the G.-O.-Relay beeing tripped.

I have taken a beautyful picture from another topic and added stuff from the Capt. Fantastic-Schematics. See my "violet X" on the RED-WHITE wire connecting "Trip-Coil to 'Switch mounted on the relay' ". Please CUT*** the wire or un-solder at "Lug on Coil".

You have CUT*** the wire - before starting a new game: Manually TRIP the relay (in the picture: press the lower armature to the right). Then toggle-on the pin, press the Replay-Button - Start-up begins, the Game-Over-Relay latches , the Score-Drums do reset - then the Reset-Relay quits pulling --- AND NOW: WHAT IS HAPPENING ? (((the ball should be kicked over to the shooter alley and You should have "can play the first ball"))) --- there should be some things happening - when the Reset-Relay quits pulling: "In the JPG - the red-2 switch, Reset-Relay closes - the red-1 switch, Game-Over-Relay is closed as the relay has latched at start-up" - we have connection (my yellow-line) to the many other relays / steppers NEEDING Power when You play the first ball.
Once You have played through all balls - have lost the very-last ball: The pin does a couple of things and comes to a halt - NOW You manually TRIP the Game-Over-Relay - and then start a new game etc.

A "de luxe version" of "manually activate the Game-Over-TRIP-Coil": You could mount an extension - with a push-button - take the extension wires through the open coin-door so You can have the playfield down.

CUT*** the wire: K-Mart and such stores, automotive department, car electrics sell handy plugs - to mount the wire in the holding: We squeeze the holding of the plug with a plier. May mount a male plug on one side and mount a female plug on the other side of cut wire(s) - very practical: We can plug-together when connection is wanted - we can unplug when needed - we can sneak-in into the circuitry the extension wires --- and when finally the pin runs 100 %: We connect the plug and let it mounted in the wire. Greetings Rolf

0Aladdins-Castle-pinside-G-O-Relay (resized).jpg

Hi Dave
good - You "can play" a game. Because You cut the wire (for troubleshooting) at the Trip-Coil of Game-Over-Relay: The function "The pin activates the Trip-Coil when the last ball has competely ended (Bonus counted down) and then the pin steps to "Ball AFTER the last ball" - look in JPG, post-18: The wiper at the Ball-Count-Unit has been stepped from pos-1 to pos-2 to pos-3 to pos-4 --- NOW a 3-balls-per-play-game ENDS through "A-function". Or in a 5-balls-per-play-game it happens ... pos-4 then pos-5 then pos-6.
So when You "play": You must be part of the logic of the game - at the right moment You press (JPG in post-19) the "rosa / pink 'Push-Button' " - OR YOU toggle-off and manually TRIP the Game-Over-Relay.

The mysterious fault - I do not see it in the schematics. If it would be my pin I would do: I cut or unsolder wire-green-red at "Switch on Lock-Relay". I cut or unsolder wire-green-red at "Switch on Coin-Relay". I unplug the Adj.-Switch for 3 / 5 balls. I then take an old, cheap Edison-type Lamp (as shown in JPG here) --- a 110VAC (or 220VAC) Bulb will light up on 50VAC (as Bally uses 50VAC for the coils). I test my Test-Light as shown in example 1).
Then I would do tests -2, -3, -4, -5 --- the pin is toggled on - I would test whith Ball-Count-Unit in different positions - I would test when the pin is at rest (I have togled-off, tripped the Game-Over-Relay, then toggle-on) - I would test when the pin is busy resetting (at the time the Coin-Relay is pulling). "Lamp-3" is allowed and it must light-up: Ball-Count-Unit is in its pos-4 or pos-5. "Lamp-4" is allowed and it must light-up: Ball-Count-Unit is in its pos-6 or pos-7.

Attention - Danger, unplug the pin - then prepare a test - clip-on the Test-Light at "Switches on relay / Stepper" - take the other end of the wire of the Test-Light NEAR the 10-Amp-Fuse. GRAB the insulated wire of the Jumper-Wire, then touch the fuse SIDE-WIRE-BLACK IS SOLDERED-ON. Unfortunately the schematics does not show the color of the 'other wire' on the fuse - but You MUST use the fuse in Your jumpering - ONLY TOUCH the fuse SIDE-WIRE-BLACK IS SOLDERED-ON. (((In Aladdin's Castle this 'other' wire has color 'red-white', grumble)))

The Ball-Count-Unit - unplug the pin then manually step the unit up - step it down - see how wipers move over rivets - look for position "4 and 5" - and a wire-color-yellow-black - it is Your starting-point, point to clip-on the Test-Light. Also look for position "6 and 7" - and a wire-color-green-red - it is Your starting-point, point to clip-on the Test-Light.

Yes, I would do testing this way (see above) when it would be my pin, greetings Rolf
P.S. - Of course: Have the wire cut all the times - the wire at "Trip-Coil on Game-Over-Relay".

0Captn-Fantastic-Work-07 (resized).jpg