(Topic ID: 349323)

Capt. Fantastic Weak Flippers

By timab2000

6 months ago


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Topic Stats

  • 35 posts
  • 11 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 6 months ago by marineman
  • Topic is favorited by 2 Pinsiders

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#1 6 months ago

My Capt. Fantastic has some weak flippers. The upper right and the left lower, upper one if that makes since. Changed out the coils thinking that would make a difference but no such luck. I'm not really sure what else to look at, any thoughts would be appreciated.

#2 6 months ago

I would check lower flipper normally open eos switches. They supply power to the upper flippers. Sometimes they are broken,bypassed or dirty.If this is the case the upper flippers will be weaker as both flipper pull side of coils are pulling in at once. The secondary eos switch supplies power to upper flippers after lower flippers have completed the flip. Also change out the fiber links on all flippers as well.

#3 6 months ago

Well I looked at the switches and they are looking pretty toasted. I'll order some and see what happens. Thanks

#4 6 months ago

You might double check that they're wired properly. The normally closed EOS switch should bypass the low power winding. It should be connected to the coil solder lug with one thin wire, and the lug with one thin and one thick wire.

/Mark

#5 6 months ago
Quoted from MarkG:

You might double check that they're wired properly. The normally closed EOS switch should bypass the low power winding. It should be connected to the coil solder lug with one thin wire, and the lug with one thin and one thick wire.
/Mark

You wouldn't by chance have a picture of that?

#7 6 months ago

Ok got that but I would like to see what color wires are soldered to each of those lugs. Here's mine

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#8 6 months ago

You can refer to the schematic for the specific wire colors.
Captain Fantastic Flippers (resized).jpgCaptain Fantastic Flippers (resized).jpg
So for example on the top right flipper, a R (red) wire connects to the EOS (end of stroke) switch and to one end of the low power winding of the flipper coil (the solder lug with the thin wire). The other end of the EOS switch connects with a short J (jumper) wire to ends of both the low and high power windings (the solder lug with a thin and thick wire). The jumper wire can be any color. A W-R (white-red) wire connects to the other end of the high power winding (the solder lug with one thick wire).

Note that the upper flippers are activated when the flipper button switches and EOS switches on the lower flippers close as pinballplusMN mentioned above.

#9 6 months ago

Yea sorry but the wiring diagram really doesn't work for me. If I could see a picture of what wires are attached and where that would be better. Sorry

Here's what my top right flipper looks like. Looks like I have 2 red wires going to the coil and no red wire to the switch.

So one red to switch and one to coil? And which one goes where or does it matter?

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#10 6 months ago

If the wire by itself in the first picture on the right solder lug of the coil is white-red that looks correct. Maybe someone with the game can offer pictures.

#11 6 months ago
Quoted from MarkG:

If the wire by itself in the first picture on the right solder lug of the coil is white-red that looks correct. Maybe someone with the game can offer pictures.

Yea that's the white and red one. Tried taking one red off and put it on the switch didn't work

#12 6 months ago

Your EOS switches look pretty wavy and the blades are close together. Are you confident that those switches are operating as designed?

Also, doesn't CF have DC flippers? Is it possible your bridge rectifier might be only half operational, thus dropping the voltage to the solenoids?

#13 6 months ago
Quoted from Runbikeskilee:

Also, doesn't CF have DC flippers?

It has DC pop bumpers and slingshots, but not flippers.

#14 6 months ago
Quoted from MarkG:

It has DC pop bumpers and slingshots, but not flippers.

Got it, thanks. I should have studied the schematic on ipdb before posting.

#15 6 months ago
Quoted from Runbikeskilee:

Your EOS switches look pretty wavy and the blades are close together. Are you confident that those switches are operating as designed?
Also, doesn't CF have DC flippers? Is it possible your bridge rectifier might be only half operational, thus dropping the voltage to the solenoids?

No I'm not confident in the switches. Will get some on order. The other DC stuff is over my head. But thanks for the help.

#16 6 months ago

Another question on these flippers.

So the upper right flipper and the upper left flipper will always be a little weaker than the other two? Or should they be the same.

The upper on on my Flash Gordon kicks butt. Wish the ones on this one were like that.

Maybe I'm expecting too much

#17 6 months ago
Quoted from timab2000:

Another question on these flippers.
So the upper right flipper and the upper left flipper will always be a little weaker than the other two? Or should they be the same.
The upper on on my Flash Gordon kicks butt. Wish the ones on this one were like that.
Maybe I'm expecting too much

if the switches are wired, gapped correctly and new they should be the same.

#18 6 months ago
Quoted from pinballplusMN:

if the switches are wired, gapped correctly and new they should be the same.

Ok that's good to know. Got parts on order so I'll report back after I get them installed. Thanks

#19 6 months ago

It's pretty easy to test the Flipper EOS switches. Just jumper them at the lugs and bypass them.
CAUTION: This is for testing purposes only! When you do this you will be bypassing the low power winding and will be using the high power winding only. So don't hold in the flipper to trap the ball or flip them a hundred times in a row.
But you should be able to use them enough to determine if the EOS switches are what's causing your weakness.

#20 6 months ago

Check the Tilt Relay, Game Over Relay and reset relays switch listed below.
If these switches are dirty or not making good contact it can rob power.
- Reset wires are Black to Yellow Black
- Game over wires are Yellow-black and Red-white
- Tilt wires are Red-white and Red

Note: on the schematic these are the switches between the Black and Red wires that feed into the bridge rectifier.

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#21 6 months ago

Thanks for the info. I'll check that out. Got parts today so plan on working on it this weekend. And will report back.

#22 6 months ago

Ok reporting back...basically rebuilt all 4 flippers. Coil stops, sleeves, coils, plungers, springs, EOS switches, everything.

Noticed a slight change in increase in strength, but nothing the has me jumping for joy. Kind of disappointed.

This is the only EM game I own, so being used to early Bally SS games, maybe I'm just expecting too much. Should the older and newer games be about the same?? IDK.

Check other relays as suggested and did not see anything out of the ordinary.

#23 6 months ago

Why don’t you post a video of a game. Like you said, you’re used to the strength of Bally SS flippers which is a huge difference. Bally EMs of that era are notoriously on the weak compared to their Gottlieb and Williams counterparts. That way people on here can tell you if yours are close to normal functioning.

#24 6 months ago
Quoted from Sea_Wolf:

Why don’t you post a video of a game. Like you said, you’re used to the strength of Bally SS flippers which is a huge difference. Bally EMs of that era are notoriously on the weak compared to their Gottlieb and Williams counterparts. That way people on here can tell you if yours are close to normal functioning.

I would ike to add a video but my phone camera shoots in mp4 and it won't download here. Not sure how to change that

#25 6 months ago
Quoted from timab2000:

I would ike to add a video but my phone camera shoots in mp4 and it won't download here. Not sure how to change that

Upload your video to youtube and link to it here

#26 6 months ago

Some folks have gone to stronger flipper coils on Bally EM's with 3" flippers. I believe Nico Volta might have some ideas.

#27 6 months ago

Here a video. Please tell me what ya think. About the flippers not my crappy game play.

#28 6 months ago

I have Bally EMs and the flippers are snappy and powerful. I have stock coils and the transformer is not 'high tapped'. Do you have the correct coils? New sleeves, coil stops, EOS? Also, are your EOS setup correctly? Looks to me like they are opening early cutting your power.

Just curious, is the main power cord coming into the line fuse and then going to transformer on the correct input? These can be setup for different line voltages. You should look at the schematic and make sure it is setup for 115V and not 220/240. It would make the lights dim if it were on 220/240 too.

#29 6 months ago

The flipper in the lower left in your reversed video (the lower right flipper?) looks fine. Compare when the EOS switch on that flipper opens in the flipper's travel compared to a weaker one. The EOS switch should open only at the very end of the swing. Any earlier and you're cutting power too soon.

#30 6 months ago

I made a video explaining what the flipper EOS does, how they work and why they are necessary.
They are also part of my back to basics series sticky:
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/em-pinball-circuits-basics-to-not-so-basic/page/3#post-3511733

https://rumble.com/vtu4lr-technical-animation-of-an-electro-mechanical-pinball-machine-flipper.html

#31 6 months ago

Thanks for all the help. The coils are correct for the game. I installed what the manual called for.

To be honest, I really had no idea how the EOS switches were supposed to be adjusted. My guess is that is my problem, and I will work on that today.

I don't think the power cord is wired wrong. Playfield lights are nice and bright and game really doesn't have any other issues than the flipper.

I'll keep working on it and report back.

Thanks again for the help and suggestions.

#32 6 months ago

So someone correctly here...the lower flipper switches should just open when the flipper is just at full travel?

How big should that gap be on the closed one when it opens and what's the gap on the open one when it closes?

Then the top flippers, thier switch is closed and then they just open at full travel too? And what should the gap be there?

Yes the left side seems to work better than right side. Trying to make them the same

#33 6 months ago
Quoted from timab2000:

the lower flipper switches should just open when the flipper is just at full travel?

Correct. Upper flippers too. They're the same. The gap doesn't matter so much as when the switch opens.

Quoted from timab2000:

To be honest, I really had no idea how the EOS switches were supposed to be adjusted.

For more explanation of what the EOS switch does watch the first few minutes of the short video at:
https://www.funwithpinball.com/exhibits/small-boards#Flipper

#34 6 months ago
Quoted from MarkG:

Correct. Upper flippers too. They're the same. The gap doesn't matter so much as when the switch opens.

For more explanation of what the EOS switch does watch the first few minutes of the short video at:
https://www.funwithpinball.com/exhibits/small-boards#Flipper

Thanks for the info. Great video too, l learned alot.

Since the left side was working better than the right side, I took extra time comparing the two and notice that the right did not seemed to be wire correctly at the switches.

Had to switch two wires around and now right side seems much better and seems to be the same as left. So I'm back to being happy again.

Thanks for the help. I'm much better with SS games than EMs but learning for sure.

#35 6 months ago

I've had a couple Bally EM's where the flippers did what they were supposed to do (which felt really soft next to later model games), but my games were tilted too much. For example, I picked up a digital level and found that my Kick-Off machine was sitting closer to 4.6 degrees, but when dropped to 3.5-4.0, the flippers easily shot the top of the play area and it didn't feel overly floaty. The ball looks to drop pretty quickly in your video. It may be worth confirming your pitch is good.

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