(Topic ID: 274447)

Capt Fantastic Credit button/Credit Unit issue. So close to working!

By futurepinhead

3 years ago


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#1 3 years ago

Hey everyone, I have been working on this Capt Fantastic for awhile now and I have it about 95% now. I'm down to what I think is my last issue or issues. I think they may all be related.

1. So starting off, when I credit it with an actual coin, machine immediately resets and goes into a game. Adding more coin immediately adds the new players up to 4 and plays to game over.
2. When I add a coin, it never counts the credit unit in the backbox up. If I manually add credits to the credit units, and press the start button, it will remove one credit from the credit unit and play a one player game. If I have many credits available and hit the start button, it doesn't matter, it only plays a one player game.
3. If I turn the game off midway through a game and turn it back on, it won't reset, it stays exactly where I was in the game and how many players and continues as if nothing happened. Cool way to pause a game but I don't want that.

I do have the schematics however they are hard to read when it comes to the smaller letters like wire colors and score motor locations. Any help is appreciated.

#2 3 years ago

Hi futurepinhead
I take "3." in Your post-1 --- when You toggle-on the pin the first time in the morning - does the Lock-Relay pulls-in and stays pulling ? After some games You toggle-off the pin - does the Lock-Relay let go / quits pulling ? Did You or some previous owner manipulate the Lock-Relay - to have it (mechanically blocked) ALWAYS IN POSITION "PULLING" ? Greetings Rolf

#3 3 years ago

Hey Rolf, I was hoping you'd stop by to help!

Turning the machine on the Lock Relay does kick on and stay on. Turning the machine off and the Lock disengages.

No modifications have been made to the game that I can tell. It was all factory but a complete basket case when I got it. I've had to pretty much work on every switch on this game so I think there is just one or two little things I'm missing at this point.

#4 3 years ago

Hi futurepinhead
in "2." in Your post-1 You kind of write "can start a ONE-Player-Game". You start a One-Player-Game - You play Ball-1, loose Ball-1 - the pin steps to Ball-2 and NOW: What happens when You press the Credit-Button / Start-Button ? Does the pin starts a new game means "Score-Drums in the Backbox do reset and the pin resets 'Ball in Play (Backbox)' to 1 " ?
(See here https://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=438&picno=44263&zoom=1 - Ball in Play is 1 --- do not look at the "Over the Top") Greetings Rolf

#5 3 years ago

Rolf, I just checked that for you.

When i press Start, and I have Ball 1 for Player 1. I play Ball 1, drain Ball 1, then it skips to Player 1 - Ball 2.
At this point if I press the Start button, it resets the whole game and kicks out a new Player 1 - Ball 1.

On Player 1 - Ball 1, if I have not launched the ball (meaning straight zeros on the score reels) I press the start button, it never adds another player. The only thing that will add another player is hitting the coin switch under the coin mech.

#6 3 years ago

Hi futurepinhead
look at my JPG - I believe "my green wiring" works. You have played ball-1 - the pin steps to ball-2 - this means the switch on the Ball-Count-Unit (my green "1") is no longer open - You press the Start-Button - this makes the Coin-Relay to pull-in, so switch "my green '2' " closes and so the Game-Over-Relay (my green 3) trips.

I believe "my orange wiring" does not work. Bally pins are DANGEROUS - the coils are operated by 110 VAC and 48 VAC - such voltage can kill You --- toggle off the pin and unplug the main power cord - then look at the switches on the (of course non-pulling) Lock-Relay - do You see a Normally-Closed Switch on the Lock-Relay having soldered-on "Wire-Yellow" and "Wire-Green-Red" ? (((You can see wire-green-red for reference, color on the Adj-Plug-Wire "3-5 balls))).
Please - do not yet do a test - simply (pin toggled-off, main power cord unplugged) look out for this switch on the Lock-Relay - wires truely soldered-on ? - contact-points on the switchblades clean ? switch truely closed when relay is non-pulling ? Greetings Rolf
P.S.: In Switzerland it is getting late in the evening (hour 22:30) - this might be my last post for today.

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#7 3 years ago

Rolf, I just checked the wiring colors and they do check out like the schematic. I also check the NC switch on the Lock relay and it does appear to have good continuity when it is not engaged and immediately looses a connection when the relay is activated.

No problem, I'm almost done working today anyways. We will talk more tomorrow. Thanks!

#8 3 years ago

Hi futurepinhead
first I stay with the JPG in post-6. When current does not flow when the current should flow it is either the relay non-pulling so switch is open - OR the switch is no good OR in the wiring is the fault. Please practice having the pin toggled-off and the main power cord unplugged: Wear rubber gloves, use an screwdriver with "electrical insulated handle" - try, do hold the tip of the screwdriver at the two blades of the switch on the Lock-Relay - try several times - the tip of the screwdriver shall touch both blades AND the tip of the screwdriver ONLY touches these two blades - in other words "With the tip of the screwdriver You make connection through the switch".
After practice comes real test --- plug-in, toggle- on, start a game - the Game-Over-Relay is latched (is in play), the Lock-Relay is pulling and so the switch is open, NOW (wear rubber gloves and) use the tip of the screwdriver - touch the two blades - big question: Does the Game-Over-Relay trip (comes to Game-Over) ? If Your answer is "No" then the fault is in the wiring.

Second - to the JPG in here - it is about "Why can You not start for a second player" --- in post-1 You wrote "hit the Start-Button - it doesn't matter - it only plays a One Player Game".
Question: After You have started a ONE-Player-Game You press the Credit-Button - DOES the Credit-Unit subtracts a game (does the Credit-Unit step down one step) , does the Credit-Relay actuates, does the Score-Motor turns half a revolution ?
If Your answer is "Yes": See the JPG here - "encircled brown" area is of interest.
If Your answer is "No": "encircled blue" area on the left of the JPG is of interest - actually the "drawn closed Switch (Limit) on the Coin-Unit" - this switch must be closed "1- or 2- or 3-Player-Game" - this switch is allowed, must be open "4-Player-Game".
(((The manufacturer put this switch in the pin "once a FOUR-Player-Game has been started : erronous / mistaken pressing the Credit-Button shall not subtract a game from the Credit-Unit - as it is not possible to play a 5-Player-Game on a 4-Player-Pin ...))) Greetings Rolf

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#9 3 years ago

Good morning, (here in the US )

I have just checked the first part of your message. So when I am in game mode, and I short out the Lock switch, the game immediately goes into Game Over mode. Going to read the second half now.

Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

first I stay with the JPG in post-6. When current does not flow when the current should flow it is either the relay non-pulling so switch is open - OR the switch is no good OR in the wiring is the fault. Please practice having the pin toggled-off and the main power cord unplugged: Wear rubber gloves, use an screwdriver with "electrical insulated handle" - try, do hold the tip of the screwdriver at the two blades of the switch on the Lock-Relay - try several times - the tip of the screwdriver shall touch both blades AND the tip of the screwdriver ONLY touches these two blades - in other words "With the tip of the screwdriver You make connection through the switch".
After practice comes real test --- plug-in, toggle- on, start a game - the Game-Over-Relay is latched (is in play), the Lock-Relay is pulling and so the switch is open, NOW (wear rubber gloves and) use the tip of the screwdriver - touch the two blades - big question: Does the Game-Over-Relay trip (comes to Game-Over) ? If Your answer is "No" then the fault is in the wiring.

#10 3 years ago

I do think the coin unit might be a problem. Please look at this photo. This photo is the stepper being in its home spot. It allows me to step 3 further times, so 4 total positions. Since it only allows it to step 3 times, some of the wired contacts never get hit.

UPDATE:
I moved the 4 post contact holder (that looks unfortunately close to a swastika) over the the 1 position instead of the F position and it now allows me to start a 1 or 2 or 3 or 4 player game.

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#11 3 years ago

Ok so now we have the start button working correctly, we are down to 2 more issues.

On issue #3 from my original post. I've noticed that if I turn it off and back on once, its still in the game. If I turn it off and on twice, it goes into Game Over. Please see the video, sorry for the background yelling in the video. I shot it after my arcade opened for the day to the public.

#12 3 years ago

Hi futurepinhead
may I read from Your post-10 and post-11 "can start a 1-, 2-, 3-, 4-Player-Game" ?

Great - You report in post-9 "testing with the tip of a screwdriver --- and the Game-Over-Relay trips". The test was for "is there continuity through all the connecting wires ?" - and Yes there is continuity so we get to the next questions "is the switch (contact-points) on the Lock-Relay good ?" and "is the switch (moved blade) adjusted correct ?". I use a rough cardbord or very-fine sandpaper to clean the surface of a contact-point mounted on a switchblade.
The switch on the Lock-Relay (You did the test with the tip of a screwdriver) is a very special switch - it is a Normally-Closed-Switch AND MUST be adjusted to open late, very late. Toggle-off the pin, unplug the main power cord - with a finger press the armature on the Lock-Relay and watch the switchblades of the switch --- as You slowly, constantly press the armature You should see: The "nylon-ladder mounted on the armature" moves one blade of the switch --- AND THE OTHER BLADE (of the switch) follows, has still contact with the one, moved blade. And then almost to the end of travel / Your moving the armature: The switch opens as the one, moved blade moves a bit further. Please check this moving of the blades.

Theory - You toggle-on the pin - current starts flowing to the Coil on the Lock-Relay (to make the Lock-Relay to pull in) --- and at the same time current starts flowing to the Trip-Coil on the Game-Over-Relay (to trip the Game-Over-Relay (((if it was not tripped at the time You toggled-off))) ).
In the wiring to the Trip-Coil on the Game-Over-Relay is a SWITCH on the Lock-Relay - opening, cutting current to the Trip-Coil on Game-Over-Relay. We want to help the Trip-Coil - we adjust the SWITCH on the Lock-Relay to open LATE, very late (((BUT the switch MUST open))).

In another topic I was writing about "self cleaning" of switches - I there wrote about the "50 percent rule", unfortunately I there did not write about Lock-Relay-SWITCH --- the Lock-Relay-SWITCH should be adjusted "about 80 percent of travel the two blades shall have contact - then finally the SWITCH opens". May want to read this: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/1965-bowl-a-strike-crazy-at-startup#post-3231326

Thanks for the video (post-11) - by now I do not have an explanation to the phenomena - I hope "your checking / adjusting (open late) the SWITCH" makes the pin to act normal. Greetings Rolf

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