(Topic ID: 1478)

Capcom Pinball Magic issues


By pdman

8 years ago



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  • 21 posts
  • 4 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 4 years ago by DMC
  • Topic is favorited by 3 Pinsiders

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CAPCOMbul19BALL_FALLStxt.txt

#1 8 years ago

I picked up a PM and discovered it had various problems and issues.
The first and major issue is that when the ball goes up into the stage area it sometimes drops into the cabinet. I found a service bulletin online that details this and says to bend a back plate near the elevator input so I am going to try that, though it is a pain to get into that area.

Also the diverter arm does not match the drawing in the Manual as far as the mounting set screws. It shows them beneath the top of the arm yet they are ABOVE and the diverter is cocked not straight. The wand diverter has the mounting set screws on top like the manual shows. It actually looks like the same diverter arm is used in both areas with the stage diverter actually being flipped over.

Here are some pics and captions for both.

The second issue is when the ball actually enters the stage for levitation. The curtains open , the music plays, yet the elevator remains stationery . After ~ 4 to 5 seconds the elevator does start to move upwards and the ball rolls out to the right side wire lane.

The switch test shows elevator lift up and down switches in the Closed positions when running the switch diagnostics. I cannot find these switches under the playfield. Does anyone know where they are? I suspect they may be part of the elevator assembly and not on the playfield. They are switches #58 and 59. I found a connector under the playfield and it may lead to them. Disconnected the connector but SW 58 and 59 still show closed.

Finally the fake elevator ball is missing. Anyone know where I can get one or can I make one?

There are a few other switch issues at the right top slingshot and left bumper slingshot switches. These should be easy enough to fix so no real problem here.

StageDiverterArmBetterdrawing.jpg WandDiverter_arrow.jpg

#2 8 years ago

here is the service bulletin for the ball falling from the elevator entrance into the cabinet.

#3 8 years ago

Is it possible that diverter is not the original part and a previous owner "made it work?" Or more likely, the factory ran out of the required diverter and "made the other one work."

Did you purposefully use the smallest font available? Some of us folks are getting old.
Just ribbing you man.

Hopefully someone else here has one to look at. You could try PMing some of the other owners on the site. Type Pinball Magic in the archive and click on the owners tab. Then select another owner and send him a message. Fatsquach is probably your best bet as he is pretty knowledgeable.

You should update your "Collection" in your pinside page.

#4 8 years ago

Seal, Yea the font is small I did it in Paint and was t
oo lazy to redo it. But if you click on the full pic you can see much better and zoom in.
I did get a hold of Fatsquatch through his website but gave him erroneus info as I wasn't sure what the issue was until I took some time to thoroughly check it out.
I guess I'll PM him and ask him to look at this topic. The problem is it is very hard to see the stage diverter arm paddle unless the overlay plastic is removed or bent up.

Wouldn't you know it, there is one screw that no matter what tool I use I cannot get the plastic overlay completely off until I get that screw out!!

As far as the diverter ( the manual calls it the Paddle Assembly), in the manual the last two parts for the stage diverter, the Arm(diverter, paddle...) and the setscrews are not listed in the parts list for that assembly. They are listed for the wand diverter, part#18 the set screws and #19 the diverter or Paddle Assembly. It could be that the manual is wrong as far as the exploded view is concerned for the stage diverter paddle. I heard there were two versions or Revs of the Manual.

Yes, the diverter may have been hacked or whatever. Until I can fully get in there and take it off, I won't know. At first glance I thought that the divereter and the setscrew cap may have come separated and the arm is flopping in there and the setscrew assy is on top holding it in place. If this were the case I guess a spot weld or two would fix it.

Yea I'll update my collection, though up until the PM it is all old SS games.

Still hoping I can get some answers to my question about the stage up and down switches and their locations.

I know i'm gonna have to rip the thing apart but still nice to have some good info before I do.

I like the Game and it's in real good shape otherwise.

#5 8 years ago

Well, hopefully other owners will know how to answer the diverter question.

Old SS pins are good too. I have a couple. There's no such thing as a bad pin collection (unless they are poorly maintained.)

What is the problem with the stage up and down switches?

#6 8 years ago

Seal

C/P from above:
"The switch test shows elevator lift up and down switches in the Closed positions when running the switch diagnostics. I cannot find these switches under the playfield. Does anyone know where they are? I suspect they may be part of the elevator assembly and not on the playfield. They are switches #58 and 59. I found a connector under the playfield and it may lead to them. Disconnected the connector but SW 58 and 59 still show closed."<<

Got to do a continuity test on the wires from the switch board to the under playfield connectors and find the correct wires. None of the connectors under the playfield are labeled, ie J1, A1J2, P3 etc.

Even though diagnostics show both up and down switches closed, the elevator works as described in my initial post
C/P:
>>The curtains open , the music plays, yet the elevator remains stationery . After ~ 4 to 5 seconds the elevator does start to move upwards and the ball rolls out to the right side wire lane.<<

At the appropriate time the elevator does return to the down position.

I'm just hoping someone can tell me exactly where the up and down switches are located. It seems they have to be on the elevator assy but the exploded view does not show any.

BTW, the manual can be downloaded from the IPDB in PDF.
I also have the hard copy as well.

#7 8 years ago

Gonna look at the manual for you but my guess the switches are optos which are little Infra red LEDs on a tiny circuit board.

Look on page 82 and 83. The optos are shown as a * on the diagram and as part number 4 on the list. There are four of them.

#8 8 years ago

Seal

I don't think they are optos.
There is an opto switch for when the ball enters the front of the stage and then gets kicked out into the pop bumper area. I know this is an opto as I tested it.

Also the Capcom switch diagnostics show if a switch is mechanical or opto.
Icons show if the switch is open or closed. In the case of optos it shows if the beam is on or blocked.

Sw 58 and 59 are shown as mechanical and the part numbers are mechanical.
If you look at the manual you'll see what I mean. The diagnostics are very good.

I'm just gonna have to rip the stage assembly out.

#9 8 years ago

OK, then those aren't the optos.

Could be the switch is inside the motor itself. If the motor is "stepped" it will know when it is in the up, down or in-between position. Not sure how to test for this though and it is just a guess since I've never played a PM. Sorry.

Switches 58 and 59 connect to the switch board at Connector J6 pins 3 (Blue/Red) and 4 (Blue/Orange). Look at the colors of the wires at the pins and backtrack these wires to the switches. IF these wires go into the motor, then I don't know if the switches can be fixed without installing a new motor.

#10 8 years ago

That's what I have to do later today, continuity test from the switch board :
switch 58, Switch board J6 - 3 Blu/Red
switch 59, Switch board J6 - 4 Blu/Org

As I stated I saw a connector under the playfield that I thought may be going up to the elevator assy. I'll ohm out one side of the connector back to switch board J6 and see.

I'll update tomorrow but I may take it easy. We're in a Heat wave here in Boston.

Thanks Seal for helping out.

#11 8 years ago

One last thing, the issue is I can't see down below the elevator assy. It's just the way this thing is mounted in the cabinet and sandwiched in the rear.

That's the problem , I can't really see the whole assembly or get at it without taking a bunch of stuff apart and out, which I plan to do when I have the proper time.

I'm not where the game is most of the time otherwise I'd be on it right now.

#12 8 years ago

Yeah, thats the problem with these games with a lot of mechanisms. Can't easily get to any of it. It's like trying to work on small cars with the big engines.

#13 8 years ago

Seal, you got me going in the right direction!

Taking a good look at the motor driving the elevator assembly, there were the two switches sandwiching the motor shaft and what looks like a small cam. The PM Manual elevator assy exploded view does not show the motor at all, but there it was.

Disconnecting the connector that connects it to the switch PCB I saw the switches open. Jumpering each one I could see each open and close. So it appears the switches are OK and both should read closed in the starting position.

What was causing the elevator to delay was mechanical, at least it looks that way now.
There is a plastic nylon linkage that drives a push/pull shaft rod and another guide rod off to the left. The push /pull shaft rides up and down through a nylon bushing.

The push/pull shaft was kind of dirty and not smooth or slick. I cleaned it off with some cleaner and after it was dry I lightly wiped it with a paper towel soaked with some silicone spray. The shaft was nice and smooth and slick now. I did the same to the guide rod.

Well, now the elevator goes up and down pretty good and in sync with the music and DMD animation. It also looks like the elevator comes down just a bit more and the ball dropping into the playfield has been reduced substantially. It happened only once in about 60 games and I still think it is related to the floppy diverter arm and the bulletin that says to push the back plate a little closer inwards. I did manage to push the back plate a tiny bit in or so it seems using a screwdriver as a pry bar.

I'll be working on that when I get my new rubber ring kit as I will have to remove a bunch of overlays at the pop bumper area.

Seal, thanks for sticking with this topic and throwing out a bunch of good ideas and suggestions.
The Motor one was a good one and led me to the mechanical problem.

PM_Elevator_Up_Down_Switches.jpg Elevator_Push_Guide_Rod.jpg

#14 8 years ago

My pleasure. I love puzzles. And wiring diagrams are a huge puzzle.
Glad you got it worked out.

1 week later
#15 8 years ago

Here's an update to my problem of the ball dumping into the playfield after it gets stuck at the elevator entrance.

I got my ring kit today so started taking apart the plastics at the stage and elevator area.I could now take some pics to show exactly what was happening.

I also ordered a Capcom Arm from Marco hoping it might be able to cure the problem but the shaft was too short and the back end of the arm would have needed to be cut and grinded to work, The Marco Arm is attached to the shaft unlike the diverter arm that is in the game which uses set screws on a collar and can be removed from the shaft. So I can't even use the arm part.

Two pics show how the ball would get caught. The diverter arm is not shown in the correct position so I used Paint to show where it would be. Likewise with the elevator which would be in the down position.

What would happen is the ball would get stuck and after a while the game would cycle all solonoids trying to dislodge a lost or stuck ball. After this attempt, the elevator would rise to the top poaition, solonoids would cycle and then the diverter arm would cycle to the stage position then back to the elevator position very quickly. This action would now kick the ball into the elevator shaft down into the cabinet. I took a video of the whole sequence to document it.

In another pic you see my 1st temporary solution which is actually working very well. I took a piece of a thin but semi rigid blue foam material and doubled it up to form a wall. I wedged it between the diverter collar, metal ramp and back of the stage. It goes down about 5 inches and wedges between the playfield wood and metal plate, so it is held in place securely. Had the metal ramp had a small vertical wall near the diverter collar to the back of the stage, the Ball would never get stuck there.

I played the shit out of it and the ball never got stuck at all. I manually exercised the elevator and diverter repeatedly over and over and again the ball never got stuck.

The other wierd thing is that in the manual, this shape diverter arm (paddle) is shown as being used in the wand diverter assy and the diverter arm in the wand diverter assy is shown as being used in the stage elevator diverter assy. However this is incorrect as the wand diverter arm is actually the one shown for the stage diverter assy and works perfectly.

I still think that someone used the wrong diverter arm at this elevator entrance. It just seems that if this arm was correct it is a huge design flaw.

I'm hoping that someone who has this game or has worked on this game can tell me what the correct arm should be or if somehow the metal ramp should have a small ~ 1 1/2" x 1 1/2" vertical wall. I would think if any other PM's are like this, there would be the same problem.

Other than this issue the game is rock solid. It pretty dusty and dirty back there so now it's time to clean it up, replace all rubbers, wax it up and hope my makeshift fix holds up for the time being.

I'm gonna try to find another diverter, even the same one, as the one in there is nicked and hacked up pretty good and is also not secured well to the collar, It's flops around up and down. I was thinking of spot welding a piece of metal to the rear of the arm to close the gap where the ball gets stuck.

Again any info or assistance is appreciated.

BallStuckDiverter_1P.jpg BallStuckDiverter_2.JPG FoamInsertatElevatorP.jpg FoamInsertatElevatorwDiverter.JPG

#16 8 years ago

Hi pdman, fingers crossed this helps...

I just started looking at your manual on the ipdb and after looking at the diverter assembly on page 80, it appears your diverter IS on upside down. Maybe why all those dents are in it!!!

I'll keep looking at the manual and see if I spot anything else.

Turn it over, I think this will stop the ball getting stuck.

#17 8 years ago

Also looking at the assembly again,

it looks like there are 2 e-rings(c-clips) which should be on the diverter rod, I'm sure from your photos there definately can't be an e-ring near the top of diverter rod, you need this clip for the diverter to rest upon to keep it at the correct height, this may be the cause of the "sloppyness" of the diverter.

Goodluck.

#18 8 years ago

Bugray, I mention the very same thing about the diverter arm appearing to be upside down in my first post of this topic:>>

"Also the diverter arm does not match the drawing in the Manual as far as the mounting set screws. It shows them beneath the top of the arm yet they are ABOVE and the diverter is cocked not straight. The wand diverter has the mounting set screws on top like the manual shows. It actually looks like the same diverter arm is used in both areas with the stage diverter actually being flipped over."<<

If I turn it upside down so the collar and set screws are on the bottom then there is no way for the arm to work correctly.

What it looks like to me is that the collar came off of the arm at some point and someone put it back on wrong, The arm is attached to the collar by part of the collar going up into a hole in the arm and then a press is used to flare the metal down onto the arm. If you look at the pics you can see that someone hammered the shit out of the connection point.

As far as e-clips go they are there just can't see them in the picture. The floppiness is caused by the collar and arm not being press flared and fitted correctly. If you hold the collar and then move the arm you can see and feel the excess play between the two. That's where the floppiness is.

Even if I had a new arm, the issue of the ball dropping would still remain. I'll detail why in the next post.

ArmFlare_side.JPG ArmCollarSide.JPG

#19 8 years ago

The real reason why the ball drops is that small ~ 1 1/2 space on the ramp behind the diverter arm collar and shaft that has no vertical metal piece there. It sure looks like one should be there. In fact when I started searching the web for solutions to this problem I found a Service Bulletin that mentioned the ball getting stuck at the stage entrance. But this issue was different from mine as the ball would lodge behind the elevator, not in front. See pic.

The solution was to bend the metal plate behind the elevator assy towards the metal ramp. But my game didn't have this issue as the metal plate was nice and snug and there is no way a Ball could become lodged there. But also looking at the pic you can see that there should be a small vertical piece of metal right behind the diverter collar and shaft, In the pic I point an arrow to it.

Why my game doesn't have this piece there is beyond me but my solution of using the semi-rigid foam is working well. I have played the game and spent almost every shot at trying to get it into the elevator and the ball has not got stuck once and dropped into the elevator shaft.

Ultimately the proper and best solution would be to spot weld a small vertical metal piece to the metal ramp. My Son's friend does all kind of welding so at some point that's what I'll probably attempt to do.

And yes, I could use a new diverter arm with the collar on the bottom not on top of the arm. But I haven't been able to locate one yet.

Finally the Manual is incorrect as far as identifying the wand diverter assy and stage diverter assy. On pages 80 and 81 this assembly is not the wand diverter but the stage diverter assy. And on pages 90 and 91 this is really the wand diverter assy. You will also notice on the page 91 parts list, items 18 and 19 are not listed for the parts on page 90 which are the set screws and arm.

All in all this problem was a blessing in disguise as I really know this game quite well now. I fixed several other issues, broken wires, intermittent drop target G switch, sluggish elevator assy and several dirty leaf switch contacts. The game is running great now so all that's left to do is clean, clean, new rubbers and wax, wax.

If anyone can chime in with any other help, suggestions or info it would be greatly appreciated.

BallCaughtMissingMetalPiece.jpg

4 years later
#20 4 years ago
Quoted from pdman:

The real reason why the ball drops is that small ~ 1 1/2 space on the ramp behind the diverter arm collar and shaft that has no vertical metal piece there. It sure looks like one should be there.

I was having the same problem. My ramp welds had completely failed on the right side so I pulled out the assembly. There are indeed two vertical tabs missing from the ramp. I reckon they've broken off years ago cause I can see where the welds snapped. I found a pic online of the original assembly. Note mine has those tabs missing.

MY PM
image-363.jpg

THE NEW ASSEMBLY
image.jpg

MY FAILED RAMP WALL

image.jpg

4 months later
#21 4 years ago

I've since had the ramp repaired and some new tabs fabricated and welded on. No problems with ball hang ups any more. It's not the prettiest of repairs but I did clean the ramps up quite a bit before reinstalling them. image.jpgimage.jpg

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