(Topic ID: 212355)

Capcom Kingpin is being built..info here

By bigd1979

3 years ago


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#851 4 months ago

Well this thread certainly got interesting.

Quoted from PaulCoff:

Wish there was more from Compy
Sarcasm?

Please please please realize that that was dripping with sarcasm, and it did come off wrong when I made the joke. (There was no pre-order money, and anyone who plunked down for a translite got one post-haste)

So, a bit of background:
1. I was requested to do something that historically hadn't been done, but had been attempted many times. I had a number of weeks to get the base system working (I think I started in February and we were to show the game in March). We were literally putting in 12 hour days after working our day jobs to get this thing ready. I was literally SSHed into the game remotely and watching my changes through FaceTime with an iPhone on the playfield. It was scrappy at its finest. I'm in Austin, James and Paul are in Atlanta.

This is not atypical to other projects I've worked on with CMG. Pinball Circus was much the same way. Hey, get something going on a new board system a few weeks before expo, and we'll be assembling the rest of the playfield while you do it. The fact that you got to play any of these games when we were subjected to those timelines is astounding in and of itself. (Not looking for kudos here, I'm just remembering how the sausage got made, and it's awesome that it worked out).

To be clear, I'm not a legal representative for CMG. While they do call me one of the rings in that three ring circus, I'm mostly just a contractor. I come in and help where needed and volunteer my time. All of us put in our own time and money.

To those saying we're inexperienced: We all know who James is and what he has done for the industry/hobby. Paul has been involved for something like 15 years with Pins and Vids, all things Python Anghelo, and certainly the work he's doing at CMG. For me, I've shifted bits on more games than I can count for Spooky, Multimorphic, American Pinball, Valley Dynamo, Dutch Pinball, Haggis, Riot Pinball, CGC and more. In addition to doing the programming/operating system design for many of these projects, some projects required me to completely assemble games from scratch because they weren't in the same state as I was. I also did this when building my Wizard Blocks. I completely understand the point of "this game being put together by people with no experience" comes from a place of frustration and lack of updates.

2. Vegemite Nick is an insanely talented individual. When I was bright eyed and bushy tailed back in 2010-2011, I wanted to create my own pinball control system from scratch. He was one of the first people I turned to after seeing some of the work he did with Coconut Island. Visual Basic and pinball? What could be better! I cannot in good faith deny that he has been a huge help with this project. The issues he ran into during his build and what he communicated to us was extremely helpful and saved us weeks of tripping over obstacles. The same goes for the people that contributed physical parts to the build so we could have a reference game. I can only contribute time I have available to help CMG out. Pinball is not my full time job, I'm a hired gun in this industry (though many times it comes without the cash... what am I doing?).

========================================================
Now the meat and potatoes
========================================================

Last week I got some full playfield CADs and artwork printed on film and checked the scaling. This is basically the step I go through before I do whitewood cuts. I have to make sure things are to scale for the following:
1. Inserts. We have two options, we can either use original inserts, go with WMS/modern clear jewel style inserts, or just go full spooky and cut acrylic sheet. If you want RGB lighting, you have to use one of the last two options.
2. Mechs. This is a huge problem. Capcom engineered a lot of their own mechs. We can use WMS mechs with functioning EOS to cut down on the engineering/tooling costs and match the duty cycling as closely as possible to mimic the performance of the original game. With the longer ramp shots being in the center, I don't see this as much of an issue. (It would be an issue if the shot was at the end of the flipper bat)

4 bank drop targets - My vote and feedback I sent to the team is don't waste time engineering a 4 bank mech and use the stern equivalent if needed.

The gun handle - Getting tooling made for something like that really sucks because of the intricate detailing on the gun grip. These also have to be modeled in 3D and we have to outsource that. (I do all of my work in 2D... yeah, I know...)

Upper ball launch trough assembly - This was a completely custom part that will require a new weldment. It is similar to what was used on Diner.

Main ball trough assembly - I've subbed in footprints for traditional pinball life troughs. If push comes to shove, I have the footprints I used for the WMS troughs on Wizard Blocks.

Slot machine - Nothing too crazy there. At one point we considered stuffing an LCD there behind the plastics. But my personal opinion (and those of others) are that the mechanical reels are cooler.

Ramps - We've got the ramp king. Though new tooling has to be made.

Standup Targets - Capcom used custom opto targets. My vote is to replace these with common off the shelf standups. Better for us, better for you.

Ramp Spinners - Ok, these are really cool. They did use opto driven ramp spinners so the spinner has no friction against a microswitch or leaf assembly. With a bit of graphite, those spinners spin for days. This is easy replicate with a custom wire and a "C" style opto pair assembly like: https://www.pinballlife.com/ir-opto-sensor-high-sensitivity-4-leg.html

Pops - As you can see in one of the attached photos, 2 of the 3 mounting holes line up on the pop. My vote, again, is to switch to a standard WMS pop assembly, or the (better) Pinball Life single cut/mount solution like: https://www.pinballlife.com/classic-sterndata-eastsegacapcomalvin-gspookyheighway-thumper-bumper-housingbase.html

Cabinet - Capcom arguably had one of the nicest playfield slide/rail/cantilever systems out there. I would love to maintain this, but my vote (and what I shared with James and Paul) is to push and use a more typical WMS or even stern setup if it took more than a few weeks to come up with a solution.

Assembly - We've got several ideas about this. One thing I can say is that nobody on the team wants to set up a production line. We have multiple interested manufacturers, but it doesn't do much good to focus on "who" gets the gig yet until we have everything needed to build the darn thing.

=====================================================================
Anywho, I just figured I'd drop in and give you a bit more insight into what goes on here. My goals for the next few weeks:
1. Finish laying out the toolpaths and get some whitewoods cut to test fit and finish
2. Test different inserts (color, clear, acrylic) for fit and finish with standard white lighting, RGB, etc.
3. Ship a whitewood off to our printer for direct print and clear testing

Onward from that:
1. Get cabinet dimensions finalized and prototypes cut
2. Put the playfield we just cut above into the cabinet (use basic railing system because the focus is the build of many of the other parts)
3. Flat pack and ship items to James and Paul so that they can do what they need on their end (wiring harness design, further mechanical design, etc)

My role in most of these projects ranges from software/os guy (my forte) all the way to "whatever the hell explodes problem solver guy". I allocate time as I can between other contracts in the biz, day job and the mod work we do at 86Pixels.

Your criticisms are well-founded. I certainly appreciate any objectivity, but I certainly don't expect it

Hold me (and us) accountable by all means. Constructive criticisms always welcome!

-- Jimmy

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#852 4 months ago

Compy Thank you for filling in where things are at. And what has gone one.

I appreciate all you and James and Paul are doing to make this project a success !

LTG : )

#853 4 months ago
Quoted from cooked71:

Didn’t the measurements show there was no difference between the CgC and WMs originals?

Spoiler - the thread is a trainwreck

You are thinking of another thread that was debunked when the guy fixed his measuring mistakes. The thread cited here was far far far less scientific

#854 4 months ago
Quoted from Warzard:

Hello Flynibus. Happy to see you too. I’m happy you come here and defends the project with your translite ... oops sorry, do you have one?
That say it all. You talk and you talk and ... you know everything. (Like always).
Note: i have never been a Jpop fan... WTF?!?
Please give us a feedback on the project, I would change my mind right away.
I don’t have timeline. There have never been any timeline. So what about we are in 2031 and we continue this chat, am I allowed Flynibus to say anything if there is still no progress? I might ask you before posting next time.
They do have a life, I do also and so are you.
There are more important things than pinball in life: for that, we agree! Finally!
So be it

You lost me right after “Hello Flynibus”

#855 4 months ago

Compy
Thank you for the clear response and all the hard work towards this project. Really looking forward to seeing progress and I want this project to succeed because I have been fortunate to play Kingpin and I think it is a top tier game. Kingpin hasn’t received the spotlight it deserves.
At TPF you had a slide regarding trademark for Kingpin. It had a filling date starting June 17, 2017.
Does CMG still have the trademark secured for Kingpin and for how much longer?
C8B96184-4A02-463A-AF92-662B527BE444 (resized).png

#856 4 months ago

Compy , I hope these degenerates don't get to you. Your role in this project is selfless and I'm sorry to hear that you got dragged into this vitriol. There are some of us cheering from the sidelines that understand the efforts that go in to an endeavor such as this. It seems that many around here forget that this is JUST a hobby and this website is just a place for us L 7 weenies to fit in when we don't belong. Keep fighting the good fight.

#857 4 months ago
Quoted from Warzard:

Happy to see you too. I’m happy you come here and defends the project with your translite ... oops sorry, do you have one?

Huh?

Yoh talk in circles like the last 10 posts from you slamming these guys individually and professionally don’t exist and this is something about me?

Yet again you demonstrate your pattern of making claims and attacking work you obviously know nothing about. Just stop already and go away.

#858 3 months ago

Now I’m curious how Capcom inserts are different.

#859 3 months ago
Quoted from Hammerhead:

I’ve been playing pinball since 80s, I’ve only seen pictures, never seen one in the flesh

most of us that have gone to shows over the past 20 years anyway. Little harder for our friends across the boarders.

#860 3 months ago
Quoted from Warzard:

I’ve heard playfield issues for more than a year now and they overcame this by free extra support on the project. A prototype? I think the COVID will be erased from earth at that time it will happen.
I’m still wondering what was the point to build a first Kingpin which will not match the planned production one on anything.
Nice show off at the pinball events thought, it created talk at least and finally, a nice poster for the game room …

But, you went inactive. Now what.

#861 3 months ago
Quoted from chad:

But, you went inactive. Now what.

Maybe because post 848 was a copy from a different posters post 844, which that poster deleted in a few minutes ?

LTG : )

#862 3 months ago
Quoted from LTG:

Maybe because post 848 was a copy from a different posters post 844, which that poster deleted in a few minutes ?
LTG : )

Could be , although I was being a smartass at the fact warzard up and ran away.

#863 3 months ago
Quoted from chad:

Could be , although I was being a smartass at the fact warzard up and ran away.

I was wondering why the exact copy of someone else's post ?

LTG : )

#864 3 months ago

Amazing update Compy, thanks for going into such detail about the current state of the project. Great to get a little look behind the curtain.

#865 3 months ago
Quoted from Warzard:

Hello Flynibus. Happy to see you too. I’m happy you come here and defends the project with your translite ... oops sorry, do you have one?
That say it all. You talk and you talk and ... you know everything. (Like always).
Note: i have never been a Jpop fan... WTF?!?
Please give us a feedback on the project, I would change my mind right away.
I don’t have timeline. There have never been any timeline. So what about we are in 2031 and we continue this chat, am I allowed Flynibus to say anything if there is still no progress? I might ask you before posting next time.
They do have a life, I do also and so are you.
There are more important things than pinball in life: for that, we agree! Finally!
So be it

You act like they owe you something.. Do they? What $$$ have you sent them?

#866 3 months ago
Quoted from Roostking:

You act like they owe you something.. Do they? What $$$ have you sent them?

Yeah I just don’t understand what his beef is, does he own an original KP and doesn’t want the game to be remade because he is worried his game will lose value or something? I mean honestly why the hell would he care whether or not it gets remade!

#867 3 months ago
Quoted from Concretehardt:

Yeah I just don’t understand what his beef is, does he own an original KP and doesn’t want the game to be remade because he is worried his game will lose value or something? I mean honestly why the hell would he care whether or not it gets remade!

Just look at his posting history… this isn’t just about kingpin or CMG.

#868 3 months ago

Awesome! Thanks Compy for the update. I'm patient. I have my translite. You guys do the Abe Froman thing and tell me where to send my money when you're finished. Hopefully we'll see you at Expo!

#869 3 months ago

I have the translite.
This is a flipping mess and going nowhere.

#870 3 months ago
Quoted from kklank:

I have the translite.
This is a flipping mess and going nowhere.

Says the guy in on RAZA.

#871 3 months ago
Quoted from kklank:

I have the translite.
This is a flipping mess and going nowhere.

Come on Kklank that’s a little hypo critical given your defense of DP and RAZA! Which by the way I am rooting for and do think will happen. I know you are part of this project, let’s give them a chance same as DP.

#872 3 months ago

Excellent point Concretehardt!

I support all new companies.
But I will call out for lack of any communication.

That said, you make a good point. Respectfully, reposting anyone’s shit is not cool. Just say what’s on your mind.

#873 3 months ago
Quoted from kklank:

Excellent point Concretehardt!
I support all new companies.
But I will call out for lack of any communication.
That said, you make a good point. Respectfully, reposting anyone’s shit is not cool. Just say what’s on your mind.

I hear you man I also get frustrated waiting and would love to see this project happen!
PS. I removed the pic from my post

#874 3 months ago
Quoted from Brettv:

Says the guy in on RAZA.</blockquote

I hear you man I also get frustrated waiting and would love to see this project happen!
PS. I removed the pic from my post

This game would be........amazing! I really dig the remaking of old games for some reason.

#875 3 months ago
Quoted from Hammerhead:

I’ve been playing pinball since 80s, I’ve only seen pictures, never seen one in the flesh

Only time I seen one at shows they wanted $5 to play one ball on it. No thanks.

#876 3 months ago

One proto was at the National Pinball Museum in Georgetown Mall, DC. My wife took me there for my 40th birthday and had a blast. I pretty much spent $20-$30 playing it and was worth every penny. Everything was working on it and was in back of a BBB proto. Little fun fact, my buddy Jay at FunhouseAmusements.com added a payout which these games were coded for. The owner wanted this. Anyway, all the original artwork from Stan Fukuoka surrounded the games. Its a pretty fun pin that the theme integrates well and the theme is a little edge. Not as edgy as BBB. Not difficult to figure out what to do but challenging enough for the average player. Voice work, music sounds are top notch. DOTS are amazing and its just a cool playing game. I think this particular KP was sold after the after the museum moved to Baltimore closing shortly afterwards for $65K'ish if memory serves.

#877 3 months ago

I played it for free at TPF and it was amazing. Would love to see them make it out into the wild again.

#878 3 months ago

Question for anyone who has played an original - if you lose a ball, does the mode in play continue on with the next ball? My game does this, so it seems like the modes are designed to be played to completion, whether or not you lose a ball during a mode. Be interested to know if that is as the originals play, of it the ROM I used in not the only version out there.

Compy - is this what you have found?

Oh, and my wife asked you to correct the above - should read "Vegemite Nick is an insane individual. " Thanks in advance.

#879 3 months ago

Yes when you drain during a mode you continue the mode on your next ball. I just verified it on my vpin using rom kpv106.

Quoted from vegemite_nick:

Question for anyone who has played an original - if you lose a ball, does the mode in play continue on with the next ball? My game does this, so it seems like the modes are designed to be played to completion, whether or not you lose a ball during a mode. Be interested to know if that is as the originals play, of it the ROM I used in not the only version out there.
Compy - is this what you have found?
Oh, and my wife asked you to correct the above - should read "Vegemite Nick is an insane individual. " Thanks in advance.

1 week later
#880 3 months ago
Quoted from Warzard:

first thing, I want to say that I was really excited for this project and really rhave espect for the good will for this project.
but, let's be realistic:
I might be the only one to ask on Pinside this question but, is it normal that CM is still working on PF and/plastic stuffs after more than 3 years on this project?
We are not talking about manufacturing parts, it's still pre-design phase.
What about partnership with a manufacturer? nothing, a new software info, the Kingpin 2.0 ? nothing, a start of a prototype build ? nothing.
I might be wrong but even when you don't share anything could mean a lot of things, there are still bad signals which show that this project is not moving forward whatsoever, it could (probably) never ends, and will finish as good will at expos with fall dreams for everyone who though this project feasible.
So whats wrong? The first proto was done in 6 months. Incredible performance for sure but it was built with an Emulator and Capcom parts eveywhere which will not likeky be the target for the production.
I don't expect anything anymore since they didn't provide any date. They didn't still any money from eveyone, sure, but maybe they sold dream for nothing but some nice time and expos and then nothing...
Pinball is hard, I do respect the engagement work anyhow but think this project has been under-evaluated by its complexity. If CGC or AP could take over, it would be a completly different story and I really hope there are discussion in this direction.
I discuss with friends who got also the translites and they do share my view. They are no longer waiting for anything.

I bought my KP translite from Blondetall and she transferred her spot to my name. Love the translite, hoping for the game as I played the Capcom KP and loved it, but not sure if the motivation to build these is still alive. Seems unlikely. But then again it was unlikely Gene would’ve delivered on BBB, and that turned out great. Almost killed the man, but he delivered.

#881 3 months ago
Quoted from underlord:

Love the translite, hoping for the game as I played the Capcom KP and loved it, but not sure if the motivation to build these is still alive.

They may be using the CGC philosophy…no info for 18 months then the announcement of the game for sale.

I doubt it too, but we can always hope.

Robert

#882 3 months ago
Quoted from underlord:

hoping for the game as I played the Capcom KP and loved it, but not sure if the motivation to build these is still alive. Seems unlikely.

Literally, not unlikely at all, even though progress is slow. See post #851 literary at the top of this thread page.

#883 3 months ago
Quoted from Compy:

These also have to be modeled in 3D and we have to outsource that. (I do all of my work in 2D... yeah, I know...)

Have you ever fiddled around with Autodesk Fusion 360? Not sure if it can do everything a pinball designer needs to do but recently something “clicked” for me with this CAD software when I realized that you can make a 3D model of just about anything by making 2D sketches from various angles, then extruding, pushing, pulling, etc. Maybe I’m over-simplifying it, but I think Autodesk finally got it right (Autocad was a nightmare for me). Fusion 360 is free for personal use.

#884 3 months ago

Well Compy is on a five week goal for next steps in build, and last post was 22 days ago.

Also, Compy is a beast and he’s been pumping out creech holos and TZ displays amongst his other projects AND working a full time job? Damn. That’s a schedule.

Optimism restored.

#885 3 months ago

I have an LE backglass so I’m in for some of that sweet air.

#886 3 months ago

Did the translites end up selling out? I think there was 250 available from memory, when I click on the original link this is what comes up..

http://www.circusmaximusgames.com/product/kingpin-signed-limited-edition-translite

#887 3 months ago
Quoted from Concretehardt:

Did the translites end up selling out? I think there was 250 available from memory, when I click on the original link this is what comes up..
http://www.circusmaximusgames.com/product/kingpin-signed-limited-edition-translite

As I recall, they sold out. I bought #221 of 250.

#888 3 months ago

The translites are sold out.
But don´t worry .... to be honest .. the translites are much much too dark, whole areas are missing. They are not looking good !
If you compare with pictures from an original game you will see: Too dark, missing details, missing colors.
So a nice decoration and nice to have a KP number reserved, but not to illuminate ... mhhhh.

#889 3 months ago

Just bought another pinbo shirt.

#890 3 months ago
Quoted from Compy:

Slot machine - Nothing too crazy there. At one point we considered stuffing an LCD there behind the plastics. But my personal opinion (and those of others) are that the mechanical reels are cooler.

I could live with either one, mechanical or LCD, but I'm glad they're leaning toward mechanical (like the original) for now. I seem to recall hearing something way back about that mech (and its behavior) being difficult to replicate. I wonder if there has been some kind of a breakthrough on that...

#891 3 months ago
Quoted from underlord:

Well Compy is on a five week goal for next steps in build, and last post was 22 days ago.
Also, Compy is a beast and he’s been pumping out creech holos and TZ displays amongst his other projects AND working a full time job? Damn. That’s a schedule.
Optimism restored.

You're very kind, and I love what I do. However nobody can expect one person to pull everything off. It definitely takes a team.

Quoted from Paul_from_Gilroy:

I could live with either one, mechanical or LCD, but I'm glad they're leaning toward mechanical (like the original) for now. I seem to recall hearing something way back about that mech (and its behavior) being difficult to replicate. I wonder if there has been some kind of a breakthrough on that...

The mech itself is super simple. It's a reel strip film print wrapped around a canister. The issue was that the timing in the original code had to be exact in order for the encoder optos to work. If you look at any of the VPin emulations, you'll see that they all pretty much just make up reel positioning because it was one of the things that they never got right when emulating the capcom system. The tolerances in timing of the original code were extremely tight. On ours, we noticed that the system would freeze up and throw an error if the reel strips weren't obeying exact timing. I added extra logic to account for this in the emulation itself.

-- Jimmy

#892 3 months ago

I'm rooting hard for you guys that Kingpin gets done and is a roaring success. Then please build Pinball Circus (and take all my money).

#893 3 months ago

I'm down for Kingpin and Pinball Circus. Bring it on, guys

#894 3 months ago
Quoted from hAbO:

One proto was at the National Pinball Museum in Georgetown Mall, DC. My wife took me there for my 40th birthday and had a blast. I pretty much spent $20-$30 playing it and was worth every penny. Everything was working on it and was in back of a BBB proto. Little fun fact, my buddy Jay at FunhouseAmusements.com added a payout which these games were coded for. The owner wanted this. Anyway, all the original artwork from Stan Fukuoka surrounded the games. Its a pretty fun pin that the theme integrates well and the theme is a little edge. Not as edgy as BBB. Not difficult to figure out what to do but challenging enough for the average player. Voice work, music sounds are top notch. DOTS are amazing and its just a cool playing game. I think this particular KP was sold after the after the museum moved to Baltimore closing shortly afterwards for $65K'ish if memory serves.

I bought that game, back then it wasn’t that amount. I sold it to a guy a year later who worked for the secret service and I heard the person after him paid that amount.

CFF5106F-8AD7-4C75-AD6F-B94BD090C9CA (resized).jpeg

#895 3 months ago
Quoted from luvthatapex2:

Yes when you drain during a mode you continue the mode on your next ball. I just verified it on my vpin using rom kpv106.

Thanks for that, although the rom being used would be the same 1.5 release, so it would perform the same I expect.

3 weeks later
#896 70 days ago
Quoted from chad:

But, you went inactive. Now what.

Pinball is just a hobby for me sorry and I have others. What part of my posts you didn’t understand?, I’m not into this project anymore, I think I’ve explained myself already.
I don’t spend my life in here like some. I think, and this is my personal opinion, and I could be wrong, that there is really few chance this will ever happen but...
anyway, to close and not to hurt feelings, good luck to the team.

1 week later
11
#897 63 days ago

Been getting back into my "tribute" game, really hoping the guys bring this to fruition. The more I play, the more I appreciate the fantastic layout. Excuse the poor excuse of a game posted here, just wanted to remind people what we hope to get at some point (a little more professionally executed than my version though!) While the software is pretty complete and a full game is absolutely playable (including two wizard modes that seem very much complete), some tweaks like modes stopping between balls rather than continuing, and probably some limit to the mode stacking would help. it's all there, just needs polish to be a top game. The game manages to make the theme entertaining without being dark. No doubt a little politically incorrect in the 2020's, but nice to escape that for a few minutes sometimes (much like BBB).

#898 63 days ago

Awesome. Really hope the Circus boys pull this off and remakes become available. Lots of interest when they were providing updates. Nothing from James or Paul in a long time now. Hopefully the project isn't dead in the water and they're still progressing.

#899 61 days ago
Quoted from vegemite_nick:

Been getting back into my "tribute" game, really hoping the guys bring this to fruition. The more I play, the more I appreciate the fantastic layout. Excuse the poor excuse of a game posted here, just wanted to remind people what we hope to get at some point (a little more professionally executed than my version though!) While the software is pretty complete and a full game is absolutely playable (including two wizard modes that seem very much complete), some tweaks like modes stopping between balls rather than continuing, and probably some limit to the mode stacking would help. it's all there, just needs polish to be a top game. The game manages to make the theme entertaining without being dark. No doubt a little politically incorrect in the 2020's, but nice to escape that for a few minutes sometimes (much like BBB).

Incredible work. The software was not finished however, it’s obvious it lacks polish and a lot of lamp effects like good shots and else. It seems a bit dead like the CC a bit. The plan was to remove the sudden death because it didn’t work out well during tests (Share in interview by Mark) in time aspect of the game but they never had time to do it. The only hope was to rework the software but not a single word on that since the start and it’s probably something way more complicated to accomplish that recreating the playfield for instance. Even this aspect takes a long time. This game needed a lot of work to be « as planned designed ». It’s true to say it looks good as it is, it’s just it was not the final plan.
It was way behind the BBB ad far as completed.

#900 61 days ago

I see that Circus Maximus is listed as a vendor for the SFGE show next week... hopefully there will be an update in conjunction with this?

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