(Topic ID: 321337)

Capacitor burns up!

By MattWesterville

1 year ago


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“What caused cap to heat quickly?”

  • Missing Part / bad config 0 votes
  • Possible bad component 1 vote
    17%
  • Capacitor overvoltage 5 votes
    83%
  • Lack of load beyond VR 0 votes

(6 votes)

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20220829_175840 (resized).jpg
#1 1 year ago

I am trying to get the police light on #high speed brighter so I bought some led lamps. They are 12vdc, cob, 5 leds per unit. I wired 5 in parallel. The problem I faced was supply was 28VAC.

So I got a bridge rectifier, capacitor 25v (I know slightly under), and L7812 voltage regulator. I connected them, double checked polarity. When I turned it on for 5s, it didn't light... + lead to LEDs broke, and the cap was hot as hell.. it was only powered for 5 seconds or so. I checked components and triple checked polarity all fine. Later I saw cap voltage was polarized 1.5V.

What could cause cap to burn up, fact of overvoltage (since it's rectified AC, peak V is higher than 28v), fact it lost its load after VR, am i missing a needed component, or maybe my bridge rectifier is bad? A simple diagram is below.

Please note I am very depressed so I could be missing something simple or obvious , I couldn't even draw a proper schematic. Please advise.

Thanks,
MattWesterville

20220829_175840 (resized).jpg20220829_175840 (resized).jpg
#2 1 year ago

They don't like being in backwards if polarized, or AC got to it.

That would be my guess.

LTG : )

#3 1 year ago
Quoted from LTG:

They don't like being in backwards if polarized, or AC got to it.
That would be my guess.
LTG : )

Well I checked the voltage remaining was correct polarity. It *should* of been rectified AC, that's what cap was there for, to fill in gaps prior to VR. So I am pretty sure my rectifier works, I tested it with 7VDC swapping polarity, but maybe it broke down at higher voltage. Oh the shorter lead was marked as cathode and it went to case ground.

The capacitor was 10mF, 25V electrolytic so polarized. All parts new.

If my setup is correct, I'm just going to use a 63V cap 4700uF and new rectifier.

#4 1 year ago

You have your capacitor drawn upside down. Positive is the --- straight bar. Did you connect negative of the capacitor to the + of the bridge rectifier, just as you drawn it?

#5 1 year ago
Quoted from PinballManiac40:

You have your capacitor drawn upside down. Positive is the --- straight bar. Did you connect negative of the capacitor to the + of the bridge rectifier, just as you drawn it?

I'm pretty sure I didn't, but hope I did cuz it'll explain issue. I thought ) was the anode not | but I'm wrong. Thanks for your insight.

#6 1 year ago

Anode on a capacitor? Electrolytic capacitors have positive and negative plates. Diodes have an anode and cathode.

#7 1 year ago
Quoted from PinballManiac40:

Anode on a capacitor? Electrolytic capacitors have positive and negative plates. Diodes have an anode and cathode.

See Wikipedia. My term anode was not incorrect. My symbol IS incorrect, I had anode and cathode mixed up.

#8 1 year ago
Quoted from MattWesterville:

See Wikipedia. My term anode was not incorrect.

I would avoid getting cocky if you are asking for assistance around here.

As an electronic engineer with over 40 years experience I can tell you I have NEVER heard anyone refer to a capacitor as having an anode/cathode - I don't care what Wikipedia says - they are WRONG!

You will need a cap with AT THE LOWEST, 63V rating for your application. You should also refer to the application data for your chosen regulator. They require a small cap on the input and output legs as close as practicable to the part to prevent oscillation.

Build the circuit WITHOUT the regulator attached and measure the voltage at what would be the input to the regulator. If it is higher than about 45VDC (very possible) your regulator won't like it - again, refer to the data sheet for exact voltages.

Good practice would also dictate adding a fuse in one of the AC leads at the very least.

#9 1 year ago
Quoted from pins4u:

I would avoid getting cocky if you are asking for assistance around here.
As an electronic engineer with over 40 years experience I can tell you I have NEVER heard anyone refer to a capacitor as having an anode/cathode - I don't care what Wikipedia says - they are WRONG!
You will need a cap with AT THE LOWEST, 63V rating for your application. You should also refer to the application data for your chosen regulator. They require a small cap on the input and output legs as close as practicable to the part to prevent oscillation.
Build the circuit WITHOUT the regulator attached and measure the voltage at what would be the input to the regulator. If it is higher than about 45VDC (very possible) your regulator won't like it - again, refer to the data sheet for exact voltages.
Good practice would also dictate adding a fuse in one of the AC leads at the very least.

Thanks so much.

I do have some 63v caps, just arrived today in fact but I'll need to order some for the regulator. So hook up the rectifier and measure the DC voltage. I think it was 35V rated. I do have fuse as part of game, at AC but it is common to a motor, 1amp slow blo.

#10 1 year ago

You should also connect 0.1 uF capacitors from regulator input and output to ground, as near as possible to the regulator. The 78XX regulators have a tendency to oscillate without these caps.

BTW, maximum input voltage of the 7812 is 35V. I'm afraid that could be exceeded in your circuit.

#11 1 year ago
Quoted from Tuukka:

You should also connect 0.1 uF capacitors from regulator input and output to ground, as near as possible to the regulator. The 78XX regulators have a tendency to oscillate without these caps.

See the post 2 above yours....

"You should also refer to the application data for your chosen regulator. They require a small cap on the input and output legs as close as practicable to the part to prevent oscillation."

#12 1 year ago

Sorry. Great minds think alike

#13 1 year ago
Quoted from Tuukka:

You should also connect 0.1 uF capacitors from regulator input and output to ground, as near as possible to the regulator. The 78XX regulators have a tendency to oscillate without these caps.
BTW, maximum input voltage of the 7812 is 35V. I'm afraid that could be exceeded in your circuit.

Yep, I hope it isn't over 35VDC otherwise I can't think how to power them. I did order some smaller ceramic capacitors. I'm waiting for it all to arrive before I resume the project.

Thanks for all your insight,
MattWesterville

#14 1 year ago

pins4u

I did find some more alligator clips do I tested the output of the L7812CV hooked up to the police light 28VAC line. It read 1.7V idle, 24.2V when active. I don't know how to feel, because this shows cap wasn't overvoltage, but it also shows VR is ok to use. I'll use a 63V cap just in case since 24.2V isn't the peak voltage.

OK I guess I'm wrong with anode and cathode debate due to the nature of a capacitor, the negative side not only releases electrons but accepts them charging. Here's definition:

The Anode is the negative or reducing electrode that releases electrons to the external circuit and oxidizes during and electrochemical reaction. The Cathode is the positive or oxidizing electrode that acquires electrons from the external circuit and is reduced during the electrochemical reaction.
https://depts.washington.edu › MSE
Components of Cells and Batteries

According to this it's not applicable to rechargeable Batteries which are similar to capacitors, especially electrolytic ones.

Thanks,
MattWesterville

#15 1 year ago

When I do 'mods' like this, I usually like to start from another power source.. For older machines like this, I would probably avoid any strain on the existing power, and just run 12v from the service outlet. In this way, you would need to power the new lamps with a relay circuit. This might give you more flexibility with the trigger input voltage depending on what sort of relays are available. Not sure if there is something lower you can work with in this case, but just an idea anyway.

#16 1 year ago
Quoted from MattWesterville:

According to this it's not applicable to rechargeable Batteries which are similar to capacitors, especially electrolytic ones.

There is a major difference between battery and capacitor. A battery converts chemical energy to electrical energy when discharged, and the opposite way when charged. A capacitor however stores electrical energy in electric field between its electrodes. There are no chemical reactions involved.

#17 1 year ago

Yeah I suppose you are correct there that electrolytic capacitors have no chemical action. The name suggested it hence my comparison.

Anyhow,

I tried a new circuit and it failed miserably so I give up. Completely. I'm a failure and a piece of poop.

#18 1 year ago

Your next step -- check ebay or amazon for an inexpensive regulator module.

#19 1 year ago
Quoted from MattWesterville:

I tried a new circuit and it failed miserably so I give up. Completely. I'm a failure and a piece of poop.

No, not at all!

But you might just have realised that to be knowledgeable in electronics requires YEARS of tuition, study, working in the field and stuffing up many things!

You can't possibly understand the myriad of things you need to know to design even a simple circuit without the above.

#20 1 year ago

Often you can learn more from non-working circuits than from those that work the first time.

#21 1 year ago

28VAC through a bridge with a 25v rated capacitor. That is probably exactly your issue. Use a at least a 50v rated cap. Your 28vac probably ends up being around 40dc peak. Most cases it is recommend to use a cap rated at least 1-1/2 times to 2 times the working voltage, you can't really fudge on voltage ratings, the capacitor company would sell them as higher rated caps if they actually could handle it.

Don't be discouraged, your probably almost right there. Blowing up home made stuff is part of the learning process. Now you know to beware of capacitor bringing up the voltage to the peak after the bridge

PS your capacitor symbol is drawn backwards in your paper schematic. Make sure you get the polarity right or they will go bang.
Make sure you wired up the bridge right too.

Depending on what you want to do the recommendation of getting an off the shelf voltage regulator module is not a bad idea. They are usually built around regulators that will be much more efficient than a 7812.

#22 1 year ago
Quoted from barakandl:

28VAC through a bridge with a 25v rated capacitor. That is probably exactly your issue. Use a at least a 50v rated cap. Your 28vac probably ends up being around 40dc peak. Most cases it is recommend to use a cap rated at least 1-1/2 times to 2 times the working voltage, you can't really fudge on voltage ratings, the capacitor company would sell them as higher rated caps if they actually could handle it.
Don't be discouraged, your probably almost right there. Blowing up home made stuff is part of the learning process. Now you know to beware of capacitor bringing up the voltage to the peak after the bridge
PS your capacitor symbol is drawn backwards in your paper schematic. Make sure you get the polarity right or they will go bang.
Make sure you wired up the bridge right too.
Depending on what you want to do the recommendation of getting an off the shelf voltage regulator module is not a bad idea. They are usually built around regulators that will be much more efficient than a 7812.

Wow you're from Columbus!
Yeah it was a 63v cap and the voltage regulator ended up getting too hot. Oh well another problem emerged after I put it back the way it was. Now the game lamps are screwed up...

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