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(Topic ID: 265811)

Can you please help me with the "Match" circuit on my Williams Hot Tip


By DashingDaryl

6 months ago



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  • 38 posts
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  • Latest reply 5 months ago by DashingDaryl
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#1 6 months ago

Three weeks ago I started messing with my Williams Hot Tip. Since then the "Match" feature stopped working. When I say it used to work, If I was lucky enough to match the last two digits of my score to the match number, I got a free game.

Now it does not work. I think I messed up a switch somewhere. (I was trying to adjust all the ones I thought were out of alignment)

Here are some facts:
The Match feature is turned "On" in the backbox.
The Match Stepper (located in the backbox) continues to step. Each game the match number is one up from the previous game.
This feature stopped working BEFORE I fixed my "Player Credit" stepper
I was also messing with the number of coins = number of games circuit within the three weeks.
I have a schematic and found the circuit, but don't see where it compares the score numbers with the match numbers.

Can someone point me in the right direction?

#2 6 months ago

Hopefully easy fix: is the tip in the 'Credit' pos. in Play adj.?

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#3 6 months ago
Quoted from DashingDaryl:

don't see where it compares the score numbers with the match numbers.

Here's the circuit that compares the score numbers with the match numbers, circled in a very thin red line

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#4 6 months ago
Quoted from currieddog:

Hopefully easy fix: is the tip in the 'Credit' pos. in Play adj.?[quoted image]

Thanks. Those are set in the proper position. I did unplug and re-plug just in case of a bad connection, but joy

#5 6 months ago

What happens if you
1) Get to game over
2) Move the 1st player 10 Point Drum Unit until it matches what the match shows on the backglass
3) Connect the 2 wires I have a Green line pointing to with an Alligator Clip jumper wire
4) Run the motor

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#6 6 months ago

Thanks Howard. I was in the middle of responding to your original email when my boss walked into my office to shoot the breeze.

I haven't tracked down the circuit yet, but I think when I do I will find the misaligned switch.

Otherwise, I will jumper the circuit and report back the results.

#7 6 months ago

Play a four player game and set player 4 (only) to the correct number to Match. Does that player win the free game? if so, the player 1 ten's score reel needs to be disassembled cleaning the wiper onto the bakelite board. Player one gets really dirty and usually the Match feature fails there first. Of course, there are contacts on the 00-90 (player Match) Unit that can be the problem as well.

#8 6 months ago
Quoted from MrBally:

Play a four player game and set player 4 (only) to the correct number to Match. Does that player win the free game? if so, the player 1 ten's score reel needs to be disassembled cleaning the wiper onto the bakelite board. Player one gets really dirty and usually the Match feature fails there first. Of course, there are contacts on the 00-90 (player Match) Unit that can be the problem as well.

Thanks for the tip, but that did not resolve my problem. Any other ideas?

#9 6 months ago

Can anyone tell me what relay triggers the Credit system? I think the problem is that the match system works, but the relay doesn't receive a signal to activate.

#10 6 months ago

I noticed that I recently started getting a free game when I should only get a free ball. This makes me think that coil circuit is bad.

In the game if you drop all the tombstones the first time you get the option to land a ball into a kickout and get a free game. If you drop all the tombstones a second time you get a free game if you land a ball in the kickout. Recently my games was giving me a free game instead of just a free ball.

Any idea what circuit I am looking for?

#11 6 months ago

So after reading the posts a few times, it hit me like a ton of bricks, the "Credit Unit Step Up" coil is the one I have been looking for. A good indication is that Howard marked it with a Green Arrow.

Looking through my machine, I can't physically find it. I found it on the schematic and I physically see the "Coin Unit step up" But I don't see the "Credit Unit Step Up" coil.

Can anyone tell me where it is located?

There is only one coil in my machine that is unmarked, so by process of elimination, you would think it is that one. But after I adjusted it, I still did not get the results I wanted. The one that is unmarked is just above the chime unit. The first coil in a line of coils on the right hand side of the machine. Is that it? If not, can you tell me what that one is, so I can mark it?

#12 6 months ago

Behind the little window in the very middle of the backglass is the Credit unit. One of its coils is the Credit unit reset solenoid and its other coil is the Credit unit Step up solenoid.

#13 6 months ago

There may be a label on the assembly that says "Replay Unit".

#14 6 months ago

The credit unit is located dead center on the component board in the backbox (1st pic) and the step up solenoid is the one along the bottom side (2nd pic).

What you wrote about the side eject hole awarding a free game is disturbing. That feature should only be able to award a free ball. You may have some wires crossed somewhere. I would go back to the switches you recently adjusted and start re-examining these.

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#15 6 months ago

I don't have one in front of me but I'm pretty sure the step up solenoid is the one with the vertical plunger. Activate the plungers with your finger to see which is which.

#16 6 months ago

Thanks for keeping me sharp Howard, but I do have a Hot Tip EM in front of me and the solenoid that adds credits is the one on the bottom edge with the horizontal plunger. I already tested function before I wrote my post (worked as an EE for 38 years).

#17 6 months ago

Man, I feel so dumb. I can't believe I didn't look in the Backbox for the coil. I have been in there before, but I just didn't think to look in there.

Unfortunately I did not find anything obviously wrong.

I did set my machine on "Freeplay" by loosening the spring on the Credit Unit Stepper. Now there is not enough tension to set the credits to zero and it is only able to turn it to "1 credit"

#18 6 months ago

DD, Did you have any luck tracking down the malfunction with the match circuit?

Howard outlined the circuit that awards a match credit for the first player.

Maybe the first question should be: does the machine fail to award a match on all 4 players? If so, that means it is extremely unlikely that the fault lies with the 10-pt drum units for players 1 through 4. That would leave about 7 other "suspects" that you would need to inspect.

#19 6 months ago

So this sounds dumb, but I am having trouble getting the game to Match. I have determined the order the match counter goes. (80, 30, 50, 10, 00, 40 JUST AS AN EXAMPLE) So if the last game the match number is 80 then the next game the match number should be 30 (which is the next number in the sequence)

But when I hit a POP bumper to increase the counter by 10 points, the match number also advances. So it appears the match stepper continually progresses throughout the game.

So I guess my next step is to map out the match numbers on the stepper and then trigger the score by the score board relay and not the bumper.

Does this sound right to you? Got any ideas on another way to do it?

Testing has been frustrating since I can't get the match to happen on a consistent basis.

#20 6 months ago

The idea of the match unit wiring is to make it difficult for players to calculate what number will appear and then let the last ball drain to win a replay.

Heck, older Bally EM's were simple since a "random" extra ball score light would come on whenever the match unit was at 0. And they would step down 9 8 7 6 Etc. Thus, it was very easy to determine what the match number would be. To help you out it would be best for you to simply set the match unit at 0. And then physically hold the plunger or cut the wire on the solenoid of the match unit and then you can set the score real at zero and drain the ball.

#21 6 months ago

The match unit has two circuit boards with numbered traces. The outer wiper on the two rotating plastic wheels will stop on the same numbered trace of each circuit board. One can observe the number match visible on the backglass and then open the back door and correlate each match number to one of the numbered traces that the outer wiper is resting on. See the photo below: If you enlarge it, you can see the outer wiper is resting on the #5 trace. On my machine, #5 corresponds to match number 90 on the backglass. You can easily change the match number to anything you want by manually rotating the tops of the plastic wheels toward you and moving the outer wiper to another trace.

One method of testing:
Start a game with the PF glass off and advance to the last ball, but don't play it. Note what number the 10-pt reel is on and go into the backbox and advance the match stepper to correspond to that. Then, place the last ball into the outhole. The game should end and the score reel will match the number on the match stepper. You can test player 2 by starting a 2-player game and advancing the game to the last ball on player 2 (but not playing it) and then setting the match stepper to whatever # is showing on player 2, and place the last ball into the outhole. If the match fails with both player 1 and 2, then the fault is likely not in the score reel circuit boards and is likely in one of the other suspects that Howard pointed out.

Another question would be: does the machine award a replay for score or special? If so, then the issue is Not with the "credit unit open at last position" switch.

My money would be on the make/break switch in the game over relay, but it could be any of the other switches or plugs.

At least you made me notice that the traces on my circuit boards are dirty. I'll make a note to clean them
Lee
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#22 6 months ago
Quoted from DashingDaryl:

So I guess my next step is to map out the match numbers on the stepper and then trigger the score by the score board relay and not the bumper.

Does this sound right to you? Got any ideas on another way to do it?

Testing has been frustrating since I can't get the match to happen on a consistent basis.

Here are 2 different ways to get control of the match numbers:
(1) Put an alligator clip jumper wire across this switch on the Game Over relay. That way the match number will always show during a game.
(2) Disconnect the Match Unit solenoid. That way the match number won't change during a game unless you activate the solenoid yourself.

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1 week later
#23 5 months ago

Thank you all for your tips. Based on your suggestions, I have had pretty good luck with matching every game.

The first thing I did was write down the match order the numbers appear.

Then I took off the Play Field glass and hit a bumper consistently to see when the match number changed. The match number changes every time the 10's digit rolls over to 0.

I made a note of the most obvious trace on the Match Stepper and equated it to a match number (80) Now when I am on the last ball, I look at the Traces and count how far off the current pointer is. I use that number to determine how far past 80, the match number is. I match that number on my match sequence chart and can determine what the match number will be.

#24 5 months ago

When my number matches, I hear a sound in the back box. I am pretty sure the sound comes from the Credit unit. I believe the credit unit is energizing, but does not have enough power to active. Since it does not activate all the way, the knocker does not sound.

If I "play" the game with the glass off and I set it up to get a free game as a bonus, the Credit Unit does activate and the knocker sounds

Any ideas?

#25 5 months ago
Quoted from HowardR:

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Howard I tried to do jump the "credit unit step up" but I can't figure out what to jump.

Any suggestions?

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#26 5 months ago

While we are on the subject, can anyone tell me what this unmarked relay does?

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#27 5 months ago

That's the game over relay. There should have been a little sticker on the metal plate itself.

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#28 5 months ago
Quoted from DashingDaryl:

Howard I tried to do jump the "credit unit step up" but I can't figure out what to jump.
Any suggestions?

If you'd like to try a phone call, send me your cellphone number in a private message and I'll make a first reply with a text message.

Or maybe this is more to your liking
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/an-em-pinball-online-repair-clinic

#29 5 months ago
Quoted from Runbikeskilee:

That's the game over relay. There should have been a little sticker on the metal plate itself.
[quoted image]

THAT IS AWESOME! I also think that is the solution to my problem since I recall messing with the contacts on this relay (along with others) before the problem started.

The missing sticker says "MATCH" and "tip?" with arrows. What do the arrows point to?

#30 5 months ago
Quoted from DashingDaryl:

THAT IS AWESOME! I also think that is the solution to my problem since I recall messing with the contacts on this relay (along with others) before the problem started.
The missing sticker says "MATCH" and "tip?" with arrows. What do the arrows point to?

I believe (it's possible I'm wrong), that they say "LATCH" and "TRIP".
I would rotate the sticker so that it reads horizontally, with the "LATCH" pointing at the top relay of the two, and "TRIP" pointing to the bottom one.

#31 5 months ago

Yes, Rocket... is correct. The sticker reads "Latch" and "Trip" and it would make more sense (to me and the previous poster anyway) if it was rotated 90 degrees counter-clockwise. The sticker is attached firmly on my machine and I have not tried to peel it off and reorient.

The latch coil is the Z27-100, while the trip coil is the M28-700. You can verify that on your schematic.

There is a make/break switch on the game over relay that is shown in the middle of the match number circuit that Howard outlined in red within posts 3 and 5. That very make/break switch is the bottom-most switch in the photo I provided in post 27.

From your post 24, it sounds like you have a weak signal coming through the match circuit and that signal is not enough to fully activate the credit unit step up. That usually means you have dirty or misadjusted switches or contact faces somewhere in the circuit that are effectively raising the resistance.

Please start with that make/break switch on the game over (latch-trip) relay and inspect it for clean contact faces and solid contact. When the armature plate of the latch coil pulls in, the middle switch blade should move to firmly rest against the upper blade (see photo in post 27). When the armature plate on the trip coil pulls in, that middle blade should rest firmly on the lower blade.

If that does not solve the issue, I would suggest moving to the motor switch at position 2B and inspecting/cleaning that switch.

Lee

#32 5 months ago
Quoted from Runbikeskilee:

Yes, Rocket... is correct. The sticker reads "Latch" and "Trip" and it would make more sense (to me and the previous poster anyway) if it was rotated 90 degrees counter-clockwise. The sticker is attached firmly on my machine and I have not tried to peel it off and reorient.
The latch coil is the Z27-100, while the trip coil is the M28-700. You can verify that on your schematic.

That makes much more sense. Thanks!

#33 5 months ago
Quoted from Runbikeskilee:

That very make/break switch is the bottom-most switch in the photo I provided in post 27.
From your post 24, it sounds like you have a weak signal coming through the match circuit and that signal is not enough to fully activate the credit unit step up. That usually means you have dirty or misadjusted switches or contact faces somewhere in the circuit that are effectively raising the resistance.
Please start with that make/break switch on the game over (latch-trip) relay and inspect it for clean contact faces and solid contact. When the armature plate of the latch coil pulls in, the middle switch blade should move to firmly rest against the upper blade (see photo in post 27). When the armature plate on the trip coil pulls in, that middle blade should rest firmly on the lower blade.
Lee

Thanks Lee, that was exactly what the problem was. If you look at my photo compared to yours, you can see the leaf switch has a larger gap. Though the other switch made contact when the game "matched" the contact was not "good enough" to trigger the credit assembly.

By using my new leaf switch tool, I was able to align it properly and resolve the issue.

#34 5 months ago

THANK YOU ALL (Howard, Lee, Curried, Rocket, MrBally) for your input. I TRULY appreciate it.

For awhile there I was about to give up, thinking the problem might not be worth the time to resolve. Thanks for hanging with me.

Daryl

#35 5 months ago

Great that you stuck to the task and got it functioning correctly. While you went in to adjust the switch in the game over relay, it's usually worthwhile to inspect the contact faces to see if they are clean, and if not, give them a few passes with a flexfile.

#36 5 months ago

Hey Lee, out of curiosity, how did you know it was the leaf switch at the bottom? Experience or did you read it on the schematics? If so, could you give me the Letter/Number reference so I can look it up myself?
Runbikeskilee

#37 5 months ago

I referenced the wire colors of that make/break switch on the schematic (grey-brown, grey-green, and black-white) and matched them to the wires on the game over relay in my machine. There are 2 m/b switches on the game over relay, but the bottom one had the proper wire colors.

That make/break switch is located at about 7.4-E on the schematic.

#38 5 months ago

Thanks man. That will give me something to ponder. I looked up the circuit, but I need to "work out in my mind" what I am looking at on paper compared to what I am looking at in the box.

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