I have an issue with a 73-74 2 player Gottlieb out of Sight. It was purchased as a project by its prior owner and I acquired it a month ago. So there wasn't a whole lot of history available. For my part I'm new to these, playing and owning, and learning A LOT with the help of this site and KLOV -- but this site in particular really has some amazing expertise.

I could go over a great deal of what it was doing when I got it -- there wasn't a whole lot working. However, I think I'm now down to the last three or four systems and have a general issue of the thing not ending and couple of specific questions regarding the QB and XB relays in the context of what's supposed to be shutting this thing down. Long and short of it is that I believe I'm starting, resetting, beginning play, scoring, etc. as per the usual. However the game isn't ending and QB is not engaging again after resetting. I suppose for that same reason you can't start a new game with the replay button.

So more specifically these are my observations after the last "game" I played:

power on; QB and ZB engage immediately; reset starts on score motor; score reels zero; player unit finds home; bonus unit finds home; credit stepper will add credits; U engages -- score motor stops; outhole relay kicks ball to lane.

Ball one, player one shown on backboard; upon shooting, all features working on the targets and playfield, points scoring etc. First score triggers relay ZB to close.

ball 1 drains, player one, ball 2, same as above --ZB obviously remains closed for balls 1-5.

ball 2 drains, player one, ball 3, same as above

ball 3 drains, player one, ball 4 same as above

ball 4 drains, player one, ball 5. At that point the outhole ball kicker is locked. However there's no signs that the game is over and relays QB SB and PB are still open. There is no reset at that point (is there supposed to be one?) The replay button won't then engage to restart. However, I can manually trip S relay and seems like the game functions as noted above. Notably, I don't think there's a problem in the start circuit anywhere I suspect there's something open/closed as an artifact of the prior game not ending correctly. I've had really weird behaviors that shouldn't be happening, but they disappear and behave if I restart.

I have the schematic, but because of my inexperience and the fact that the score motor is involved by action of one or more other relays at the end of game, I don't know when these relays or other ones behind them are to close and what effect that's happening on my never ending quarter. I made the mistake of chasing down connections one by one a week ago and had a serious setback to the point I couldn't reset nor would U engage nor would the player stepper unit reset. I've walked all that back to just the game over problem again. I now believe that my problem was not a contact but the state of the game was not truly at reset, power off, ball in lane -- just the control bank was reset, score was zero and I assumed everything was reset when it wasn't and was making each new decision on the decision tree based on what I saw.

Based upon the description above any suggestions to get the game to end? The manual is very descriptive of starting the game -- "replay button closes S, relay v, etc.," but says scarcely little about the role of other relays properly ending the game. I imagine to all of you this is equivalent of asking what cables go on my car battery, but I'm smart enough to take my noobie lumps now, get this repair over with once and for all, and have better informed people tell me what I'm doing wrong or what I need.

I really appreciate all the help you guys provide and look forward to a time when I might have something to contribute besides new threads. At least now I'm not having heart palpitations every time I lift the playfield!

Thanks everyone.

Thanks fred and woz.

WOZ: Right, after ball 5 drains something has changed in the circuit that the next ball stays in the outhole. With the playfield up I can press the outhole relay and O relay engages, but the kicker assembly isn't loading it over the trough switch and into the shooting lane.

Fred: I have gone over Clay's EM guide line by line -- a couple of times -- and have referred to it frequently. However, I'm not aware that there's any description regarding the game over sequence for Gottlieb. I will go over it again and will look at the motor and the relays you mentioned in 2 that may be useful.

For you guys or anyone else. Can you confirm that XB is supposed to close at the closing of the trough switch on the last ball? When it closes what is it activating. Also, would you share what control bank relays are closing immediately prior to end of game, in this instance on ball 5? I really want to look over those contacts but can see that a couple are activated by contacts actually in other adjacent control bank relays.

I really really appreciate the help so far and would benefit from a little more clarification.

So I have some homework. MarkG above requested portions of the schematic. Here they are and I'll report back after using the suggestions above.

high res schematic 1 (resized).jpg

high res schematic 2 (resized).jpg

First, please let me thank all of you for helping to walk me through this.

With respect to the question above regarding credits, yes there are credits on the credit stepper.

Next, I believe I moved the adjustment switch to 3-ball game as noted above. However, it still played to 5 balls then XB relay engaged (I restarted it 3-4 times) -- what is that about? I'm attaching a photo because there are three adjustments in that area and I want to confirm I got it right. However I think that has to be the one because it was the only one that had 4 selection options for 2,3,4 or 5 ball game. In any event, moving the adjustment switch still didn't move QB. The player stepper unit is moving because its showing proper ball count and was visually verified. Also, when engaged in a two player game it is moving the appropriate intermediate steps to cause player one and two to alternate.

Any other thoughts? Thanks again everybody.

ball count adjustment (resized).jpg

Alright! There are three things in just the last two posts I didn't know. I'll go back and make the correct adjustment to a three ball game. So cactusjack when you're talking about the jumpers I'll have 4 contacts on the wipers. If the wiper arm were positioned north-south I'd have two connected contacts on the north end and one or two simultaneously at the south end. When you describe one is for the play/ball unit is it the opposing end that is controlling Game Over? Or is it the same end but on the second row of disc contacts? While I cleaned everything over and over and made sure the contacts were stopping directly over the contacts, I didn't parse out that each contact was performing a different function and/or what it was.

Cactusjack that's definitely useful at #18 but let make certain I understand your post at #16 above which reads:

"one jumper is for ball in play light. The others handle last ball and Game over tripping." I don't think I asked the question very artfully.

Am I correct that you're saying one pair of connected contacts at one end of the wiper are the first "jumper" and the other set of contacts on the opposing end -- the second "jumper" -- is connected (by good contact with the disc) to relay QB? Whichever contact it may be, does a wire go directly from the Player unit stepper to QB or does it go through another relay first?

Given how the player stepper functions, shouldn't I be able to move the stepper to ball five/player two on the disc and then manually step the wiper one more position to game over? Wouldn't that next opposing set of contacts in that position after player 2 ball 5 have to be the game over relay?

I'm either having an epiphany or an aneurysm but it seems like there's something new and tangible to check instead of going to the score motor XB and O relays for the 25th time.

Thanks you guys. It's amazing how simple you explain this.

I do need a little clarification though.

MarkG and C-Jack, you both explained that the Player Unit does not connect directly to QB. I believe I understand from you both that the Player unit does however connect directly to XB. So I pulled out my DMM to check the continuity that MarkG suggested between the player unit stepper and XB. However, I don't have a slate-blk wire at XB. I don't know how clear it is in the photo but I have red-wht; wht-br; bk-rd on XB. But I DO have a sl-blk on the far side of QB relay by the wt-sl wire.

So it occurred to me, XB relay is already pulling/dropping at Ball 5. Doesn't that necessarily mean that I have continuity on that portion of the circuit? I'm just not getting something from the score motor or O relay to QB or a contact from XB -- am I wrong?

If I might not have continuity and still need to check, what wire should I be checking on XB relay or should it be the SL-BLK wire on QB?

C-Jack -- I did NOT know that designations ending in B are control bank. That makes sense though -- although I still don't understand why relay LB is designated as the first ball and not last ball as you would intuitively think. Also, you both called it. The 2,3,4,5 adjustment was for credits.

xb and qb relay (resized).jpg

MarkG and C-Jack. Thanks to you both so much. I went backwards and forwards a few times starting all the way back with the contact at motor 1(a) through motor 3(C) through XB back to O and back to QB. Seems to have it now. The LB relay is being a little finicky with a contact adjustment issue when the bank is physically reset in the rack its attached to but a little tweaking and we should be there.

If I can impose just once more I'm having another very curious issue I'm posting under another thread involving the outhole kicker. So long as the playfield is propped up it literally works all the time -- 100% percent of the time. However when the playfield is lock down it doesn't want to fire. I'll describe more in that thread. What would you suggest and would you mind posting it under "Out of Sight--Gottlieb outhole kicker problem."