(Topic ID: 316434)

Can the new Ford model be applied to the pinball industry?

By hool10

1 year ago


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    #1 1 year ago

    Interesting article that may be the sign of the times or not. The traditional model of test driving a car at a dealership or the experience with dealing with salesmen and the haggling experience is going away possibly. https://jalopnik.com/ford-ceo-wants-to-abolish-the-dealership-experience-as-1849007700

    Ford CEO Jim Farley claims "dealerships would get rid of inventory entirely and become high-quality service centers for customers who purchased their vehicles online". Ford and all the manufacturers are heavily investing into the EV market for quite a while now. Essentially Ford wants you to purchase your new Ford Lightning or whatever car it is online and then it's delivered to you like an Amazon package. If there is anything wrong with your vehicle you can return it to the dealership for service. In fact servicing or buying the car would be through a company sales portal rather than your local dealership...no interaction with a human. Jim Farley also said they would eliminate spending on advertising entirely. Currently a third of vehicle sales in the USA are digital as well.

    Now how does this relate to pinball? Well this has already been going on since 2008 or so and I would give credit first to Jack Guarnieri for starting this trend. http://pinballsales.com/shop/pc/home.asp Jack, at least to my knowledge, sold games online primarily to home consumers cutting out any barrier such as other distributor regions or even internationally. You want a certain game then you can purchase it via the Pinside Marketplace. Spooky Pinball games are pretty much sold-out instantly or any LE model of any manufacturer nowadays.

    Do we see show rooms disappearing in the future?

    #2 1 year ago

    Fresh take!
    With how well built all games are now no need for distros eh?

    #4 1 year ago
    Quoted from hool10:

    Interesting article that may be the sign of the times or not. The traditional model of test driving a car at a dealership or the experience with dealing with salesmen and the haggling experience is going away possibly. https://jalopnik.com/ford-ceo-wants-to-abolish-the-dealership-experience-as-1849007700
    Ford CEO Jim Farley claims "dealerships would get rid of inventory entirely and become high-quality service centers for customers who purchased their vehicles online". Ford and all the manufacturers are heavily investing into the EV market for quite a while now. Essentially Ford wants you to purchase your new Ford Lightning or whatever car it is online and then it's delivered to you like an Amazon package. If there is anything wrong with your vehicle you can return it to the dealership for service. In fact servicing or buying the car would be through a company sales portal rather than your local dealership...no interaction with a human. Jim Farley also said they would eliminate spending on advertising entirely. Currently a third of vehicle sales in the USA are digital as well.
    Now how does this relate to pinball? Well this has already been going on since 2008 or so and I would give credit first to Jack Guarnieri for starting this trend. http://pinballsales.com/shop/pc/home.asp Jack, at least to my knowledge, sold games online primarily to home consumers cutting out any barrier such as other distributor regions or even internationally. You want a certain game then you can purchase it via the Pinside Marketplace. Spooky Pinball games are pretty much sold-out instantly or any LE model of any manufacturer nowadays.
    Do we see show rooms disappearing in the future?

    Pinballsales.com was nothing but a pinball & amusement game distributor. They charged more than traditional distributors that sold primarily to route operators. But they provided value-add ons such as included shipping anywhere in the USA and extended warranties included. When needed, for a fee baked into the price, white-glove unboxing, placement in homes and set up. Also, in home service for those customers that did not want to go into their machines.
    For the record, Incredible Technologies tried this on their amusement game side, not gambling equipment, aboot 15 years ago. Less than four months later, they went back to the distributor model. Servicing amusement games is hard. Even "Maintenance-Free" video games....

    #5 1 year ago

    Cargument = automatically invalid

    You can thank me later, Levi

    #6 1 year ago
    Quoted from MrBally:

    For the record, Incredible Technologies tried this on their amusement game side, not gambling equipment, aboot 15 years ago. Less than four months later, they went back to the distributor model.

    Cinematronics tried going direct sales and cut out the distributors, during the video game fad. The other manufacturers sales went up. And when Cinematronics went crawling back to the distributors, too late. They weren't needed anymore.

    LTG : )

    #7 1 year ago

    Just spent several hours talking to a buddy who is a GM of a Ford dealership. This report is totally legit for the car industry. Probably not a great model for pinball though.

    #8 1 year ago

    I don't think some of you folks read what I wrote or even the article. The way your car would be fixed or a warranty would happen is you would bring the car to to the dealership or the dealership would send a tech to the car itself.

    #9 1 year ago

    Maybe for those buy-everything-blindly-sell-later types it would work, but for me gameplay, fun and the overall experience are what matters. And those can not be evaluated from watching somebody who plays way better than myself on a stream.

    But I wouldn't buy a car either without having driven, seen and "tried it on"..

    Possibly a mix would work. Lend a demo car via a central service and test it for a few hours, then maybe order online.
    There used to places where you could play new pinball machines without a nagging salesperson standing by...

    #10 1 year ago

    I have a hard time picturing people plunking down 30k - 40k - 50k - 60k - 70k for a car they've never even seen in person. It's not like buying a set of dishes. Not everyone is brand loyal and going to get a Ford every time, people like to comparison shop. Part of sales is selling the sizzle, not the steak - people come in, sit in the car, smell the new leather, etc, even if they don't drive it.

    What happens when Amazon delivers your car and you don't find it comfortable to drive? Or any of a million other things you could dislike? Pay a $2000 return fee and roll the dice again?

    Sure it's a great idea for increasing your bottom line, but for the consumer - nah.

    #11 1 year ago

    No.

    I'd be surprised if this "model" works long for the auto industry.

    It's good for the producers, not so much the consumer.

    #12 1 year ago
    Quoted from hool10:

    I don't think some of you folks read what I wrote or even the article. The way your car would be fixed or a warranty would happen is you would bring the car to to the dealership or the dealership would send a tech to the car itself.

    Not many people would drag their game to a distributor. I don’t understand the benefit or how it would even work. I don’t know a single distributor that would support a game they didn’t sell on any sort of scale. They might support one from a friend or one who buys every pin that comes out.

    Also, with car dealerships, the manufacture pays the dealership for warranty work. When I was a mechanic at one, the dealership would always complain about warranty work because they were underbid on the time required to complete the work. I don’t know if a pinball manufacturer will pay for labor. Most times they don’t want to pay for parts.

    #13 1 year ago

    I've never owned a Ford, and this business model would ensure that for the remainder of my life. Cars are more than utility objects for many/most drivers, and absolutely no way I would purchase a vehicle without ever experiencing it first.

    Pinball, on the other hand is a little different for me. I don't need to go to a dealership to play a title before I buy it. However, I do need to play the title somewhere in the wild and experience it before I put my order in. The direct vs. distributor business model has been a battle in a variety of industries. Not always, but quite often when manufacturers pull away from the distribution model they end up losing. Without getting into things too deeply, I see the primary issue is that typically the manufacturer focus on production and moving the inventory they want while the distributor is more customer/service focused. It is rare that a manufacturer can offer the value added service levels of a distributor.

    #14 1 year ago
    Quoted from hool10:

    Jim Farley also said they would eliminate spending on advertising entirely.

    That's bad news for commercial radio!

    Regarding try before you buy: maybe through car rental? That's how I got to experience a Nissan NV200 before buying my Ford Transit Connect. The pinball analogy of playing on location has already been mentioned.
    .................David Marston

    #15 1 year ago

    …also, it’s easy to want to cut out a distributor when pinball is hot and everything sells, what happen when there is a down turn?

    #16 1 year ago
    Quoted from hool10:

    I don't think some of you folks read what I wrote or even the article. The way your car would be fixed or a warranty would happen is you would bring the car to to the dealership or the dealership would send a tech to the car itself.

    Tldr - the ford guy watched tesla and thinks he should copy them.

    Except the Ford guy will have to undo all the same dealer protection rackets his predecessors setup for decades.

    #17 1 year ago

    The solution is simple:

    Pinball and cars need to be combined, once and for all. That way, for most issues, you can drive your pinball machine to the dealer, and they'll repair it. A built-in escalara will help move any of these new pin/car hybrids out of basements, on to driveways, and on to the streets. Built in AI and GPS will also allow your pinball machine to drive itself autonomously to the dealer.

    This will solve most maintenance issues, and once and for all remove the middlemen from the equations.

    In the event the drivetrain on the pinball machine fails, a redundancy will be included; You can drive your house to the pinball dealership thanks to new mobile home technology. Costs will be reduced across the board, repair time will be slashed in half, and a cry will echo across the land: "Pinball machines are like cars."

    Once it's official - that pins are the same as cars and houses - we will finally achieve the synergy we need to simplify everything. From cars, houses, toasters, fish tanks...virtually everything will simply return itself to the dealer for repair or replacement.

    #18 1 year ago

    This is brilliant! You should be an executive at Tespoord Jersern Pincar Realtors!

    #19 1 year ago

    so your saying one of these is not like the other ?

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    #20 1 year ago

    God awful idea (and I'm a Ford guy)

    This is just a "cope" for the fact parts shortages are making new car lots barren. You can't walk in and out with a new car in a day anymore, so they "hide" the delays with online ordering.

    Buying a car without test driving it is even stupider than buying a pin without playing it.

    #21 1 year ago
    Quoted from Jamesays:

    so your saying one of these is not like the other ?
    [quoted image][quoted image][quoted image]

    To a simpleton with no vision possibly. To someone who can't think outside the box.

    Pinball machines are the same as cars. It's our future.

    pincar (resized).jpgpincar (resized).jpg
    #22 1 year ago

    Ford probably will lose me as a customer

    #23 1 year ago
    Quoted from CrazyLevi:

    To a simpleton with no vision possibly. To someone who can't think outside the box.
    Pinball machines are the same as cars. It's our future. [quoted image]

    I bet you have been waiting to use that picture for years.

    #24 1 year ago
    Quoted from pinzrfun:

    I have a hard time picturing people plunking down 30k - 40k - 50k - 60k - 70k for a car they've never even seen in person. It's not like buying a set of dishes. Not everyone is brand loyal and going to get a Ford every time, people like to comparison shop. Part of sales is selling the sizzle, not the steak - people come in, sit in the car, smell the new leather, etc, even if they don't drive it.
    What happens when Amazon delivers your car and you don't find it comfortable to drive? Or any of a million other things you could dislike? Pay a $2000 return fee and roll the dice again?
    Sure it's a great idea for increasing your bottom line, but for the consumer - nah.

    Have you heard of this new company named “Tesla”?

    Wade

    #25 1 year ago

    The 'high quality service center' part of the Ford model makes me laugh, though I commend them for never failing to smear lipstick on the pig.

    I've bought....8 vehicles..... with never having driven them, or even one like them. I've found that my ability to assess any vehicle with some salesman sitting next to me, jabbering away, is at zero. Even without a salesman, a 5 minute drive is not gonna tell me anything. I'd need a week-long test drive before I could tell you the goods and bads.

    #26 1 year ago
    Quoted from benheck:

    God awful idea (and I'm a Ford guy)
    This is just a "cope" for the fact parts shortages are making new car lots barren. You can't walk in and out with a new car in a day anymore, so they "hide" the delays with online ordering.
    Buying a car without test driving it is even stupider than buying a pin without playing it.

    Couldn't agree more.

    Quoted from hool10:

    Now how does this relate to pinball? Well this has already been going on since 2008 or so and I would give credit first to Jack Guarnieri for starting this trend. http://pinballsales.com/shop/pc/home.asp Jack, at least to my knowledge, sold games online primarily to home consumers cutting out any barrier such as other distributor regions or even internationally. You want a certain game then you can purchase it via the Pinside Marketplace. Spooky Pinball games are pretty much sold-out instantly or any LE model of any manufacturer nowadays.
    Do we see show rooms disappearing in the future?

    No doubt that many distributors don't have retail space (i.e. a showroom) and often don't add much value. Stern has moved to a support model that leans on distributors exclusively. I recently tried to get some tech support for my Rush LE and Stern just told me to go through my distributor.

    Selling direct to consumers like JJP and Spooky is fairly meaningless unless the support they provide is better than distributors. I rate Spooky very highly in the support area and JJP so-so.

    #27 1 year ago
    Quoted from snaroff:

    No doubt that many distributors don't have retail space (i.e. a showroom) and often don't add much value

    That’s why they are called distributors and not retailers.

    The flaw comes from lacking the second tier of distribution- the value added reseller. The retailer.

    The stern model broke down when they were no longer selling to operators and the market was not big enough to support true retail. The volume is too low, the margins too small, and stern never did anything to really support retail… being too cheap to invest. Hobbyists wanted cheap prices and already knew about buying wholesale… so they would never support VARs. So there basically was an impasse- and distributors basically became the defacto point of sale for all sales.

    Then we had the race to the bottom because stern didn’t regulate distros well… and guys in their garage became distros to just get wholesale pricing for them and their buddies.

    Now we have moved back to stern policing distros but there still isn’t much support to make the VAR reality. There is no real training, service channels, margin, etc.

    Stern wants the benefits of distribution but has never invested in making it work. They defaulted into existing channels due to being part of coinop.

    The thing is now… there finally is enough demand and money in the market… now would be the time to pivot. But truth be told… as long as stern can keep getting away with abysmal… they will.

    #28 1 year ago
    Quoted from GregCon:

    I've found that my ability to assess any vehicle with some salesman sitting next to me, jabbering away, is at zero.

    Last time I had a salesman in a car, they were imploring me to slow down.

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    #29 1 year ago

    Hell no they don't want that.

    They have the perfect setup... the dealers and distribs deal with all the headaches and do all the support and legwork and are grossly underpaid for it.

    Pinball buyers are among the biggest bunch of whiners there are.. you think they want all your "my playfield has two dimples in it I want a new one" phone calls?

    Car dealerships are scams and ripoffs and everyone hates them... they deserve to die. The two things have little in common really.

    #30 1 year ago
    Quoted from benheck:

    God awful idea (and I'm a Ford guy)
    This is just a "cope" for the fact parts shortages are making new car lots barren. You can't walk in and out with a new car in a day anymore, so they "hide" the delays with online ordering.
    Buying a car without test driving it is even stupider than buying a pin without playing it.

    They could just have a small lot with one of each model you could test drive.

    Car dealerships are what they are...

    They get you in and slowly torture you until they figure out just how much money they can extract from you.

    -1
    #31 1 year ago

    Does anybody read these articles? Ford wants to do this for EVs, not ICEs. All the boomers who want to cling to one of the most widely hated business models in america are free to do so. You weren't going to buy an EV anyway.

    #32 1 year ago
    Quoted from flynnibus:

    That’s why they are called distributors and not retailers.
    The flaw comes from lacking the second tier of distribution- the value added reseller. The retailer.
    The stern model broke down when they were no longer selling to operators and the market was not big enough to support true retail. The volume is too low, the margins too small, and stern never did anything to really support retail… being too cheap to invest. Hobbyists wanted cheap prices and already knew about buying wholesale… so they would never support VARs. So there basically was an impasse- and distributors basically became the defacto point of sale for all sales.
    Then we had the race to the bottom because stern didn’t regulate distros well… and guys in their garage became distros to just get wholesale pricing for them and their buddies.
    Now we have moved back to stern policing distros but there still isn’t much support to make the VAR reality. There is no real training, service channels, margin, etc.
    Stern wants the benefits of distribution but has never invested in making it work. They defaulted into existing channels due to being part of coinop.
    The thing is now… there finally is enough demand and money in the market… now would be the time to pivot. But truth be told… as long as stern can keep getting away with abysmal… they will.

    Couldn't agree more with your comments overall...

    The distributor/retailer distinction is blurred, big-time. I remember the days when Stern tried selling via Sharper Image (about as retail as it gets Asking top dollar, with no clue on how to support these beasts (back in 2004, when LOTR and TSPP were big hits).

    3 miles down the road from me is a distributor/retailer with a huge storefront for folks to play many of the recent titles (which is great). Even though they are investing in this space, they still are competing with pure distributors.

    #33 1 year ago

    Ford will either

    A- go bank-o
    B- go bank-o and Biden bails them out and they still fail
    C- merge and go bank-o
    d- quit entirely
    e- dump ICE , Dump stealers - then go bank-o
    F copy Tesla ( which they do) ever seen there chargers? its LOL insane . loose customers to Tesla or BYD then go bank-o

    Mark my word

    #34 1 year ago
    Quoted from LTG:

    Cinematronics tried going direct sales and cut out the distributors, during the video game fad. The other manufacturers sales went up. And when Cinematronics went crawling back to the distributors, too late. They weren't needed anymore.
    LTG : )

    I don't remember that and I worked for a route op from 1979 to 1985. Subscribed to Play Meter into the '90's.
    We had several of their Space Wars monstrosities when I arrived. What fun repairing those monitors. Then we bought several Star Castles. Great earners. Until the monitors blew to pieces in six months.

    #35 1 year ago
    Quoted from Hypercoaster:

    Does anybody read these articles? Ford wants to do this for EVs, not ICEs. All the boomers who want to cling to one of the most widely hated business models in america are free to do so. You weren't going to buy an EV anyway.

    Yep you are correct about Ford wanted to do this with electric vehicles I'm also pretty sure there's a law in the states that says car companies cannot sell directly to customers and must use dealerships. For some reason electric vehicles are exempted from this, I think smaller companies can and Ford would create a sub brand to fit this model.
    https://www.ftc.gov/enforcement/competition-matters/2015/05/direct-consumer-auto-sales-its-not-just-about-tesla

    #36 1 year ago
    Quoted from Dawson:

    Ford will either
    A- go bank-o
    B- go bank-o and Biden bails them out and they still fail
    C- merge and go bank-o
    d- quit entirely
    e- dump ICE , Dump stealers - then go bank-o
    F copy Tesla ( which they do) ever seen there chargers? its LOL insane . loose customers to Tesla or BYD then go bank-o
    Mark my word

    or Ford will release the cool looking electric Mustang and be a decent choice

    #37 1 year ago
    Quoted from MrBally:

    I don't remember that and I worked for a route op from 1979 to 1985.

    The reason I remember it is because I was sitting in the office of the guy running the game division of my distributor when they called and wanted to know if he was interested in becoming a distributor again.

    He said something about not having to sell their sh*t anymore and slammed down the phone.

    LTG : )

    #38 1 year ago
    Quoted from Jamesays:

    or Ford will release the cool looking electric Mustang and be a decent choice

    and I dont mean a prius looking car with Mustang written on it.

    #39 1 year ago
    Quoted from hool10:

    no interaction with a human.

    Is this what it all boils down to?

    Quoted from Hypercoaster:

    All the boomers who want to cling to one of the most widely hated business models in america are free to do so.

    Granted, but give them credit. Atleast they can handle basic social interaction, unlike this modern tech generation that continues to find new ways of completely avoiding it.

    #40 1 year ago
    Quoted from Hypercoaster:

    All the boomers who want to cling to one of the most widely hated business models in america are free to do so

    Yeah... instead of being able to leave a bad business and go buy from someone else.. you are basically stuck paying whatever the single-source wants to charge. So great... wheee

    #41 1 year ago
    Quoted from LTG:

    The reason I remember it is because I was sitting in the office of the guy running the game division of my distributor when they called and wanted to know if he was interested in becoming a distributor again.
    He said something about not having to sell their sh*t anymore and slammed down the phone.
    LTG : )

    So cool for the distributors to have the upper hand and tell what's his whatshisname to F-off. Plus their Ultra-reliable dragon's Lair didn't help. They finally got Space Ace right with a commercial Laser Disc player. Too bad the game sucked which put Cinematronics out of their misery.

    #42 1 year ago
    Quoted from Jamesays:

    and I dont mean a prius looking car with Mustang written on it.

    As much as I'm a Ford guy, and know the electric Mustang is coming, Ford really painted themselves into a corner with calling that thing the Mustang Mach E. I think they loved the name so much they were eager to slap it on something. A myriad of other names could've been used, it still would've been an amazing EV, and they could've saved that name for an ACTUAL Mustang model that was an electrified version of a Mustang Mach 1, which is a currently produced model.

    While I used to be able to see how people these days would buy new cars online without ever seeing them or driving them, I now know that in the long run, it's not so viable an option. Just take a look at Carvana and Vroom. It made sense, people pay to have random strangers bring them groceries, fast food, and whatever else they're too lazy to get up off their couch to get. But there are so many laws on the books in so many states regarding, restricting, and defining new car sales, it's gonna be a long uphill battle to get that kind of thing done.

    #43 1 year ago

    I'm so glad to hear that the dealership model is going away. Good riddance. Dealerships are mostly complete scams which are staffed by some of the most unscrupulous people on the planet. There's a reason car salespeople are the avatar of greedy capitalists.

    A few years ago I was helping a friend of mine buy a new car. We priced out a few options based upon his needs and head to the dealership where a few of the cars we short-listed were being sold... In the end, he didn't end up getting anything, but a silver Altima caught my eye. My car was a big long in the tooth at this point and they offered me a decent trade-in price so I decide to go for it.

    The finance manager and I go through the terms point by point and write the fees down on a separate slip of paper. Down payment less the trade in value, monthly payment, interest, buyout fee (which seems a bit high, but whatever), etc... Okay all done and I get my new car.

    About a year later after getting a small lump sum of cash I decide to pay off my car so I call Nissan Credit Corp. Loooong story short they tell me the buyout of my car is about THREE GRAND MORE than it should be according to the deal... Worse than that, the buyout cost is--of course--now significantly more than the current value of the car.

    I call up the dealership and ask the same finance manager why he told me the price of the car would never be more than $X and it was now X+$3,000. There must be some mistake, right?

    He then puts me on hold for about fifteen minutes. When he finally comes back on the line, he tells me he doesn't remember our conversation, but that all the terms were clear in the contract. I ask him why the numbers don't match the slip of paper where we went over the terms and he says he "doesn't remember" the paper math we did.

    Scamming scumbags!

    -1
    #44 1 year ago
    Quoted from PinlordMarc:

    I'm so glad to hear that the dealership model is going away. Good riddance. Dealerships are mostly complete scams which are staffed by some of the most unscrupulous people on the planet. There's a reason car salespeople are the avatar of greedy capitalists.
    A few years ago I was helping a friend of mine buy a new car. We priced out a few options based upon his needs and head to the dealership where a few of the cars we short-listed were being sold... In the end, he didn't end up getting anything, but a silver Altima caught my eye. My car was a big long in the tooth at this point and they offered me a decent trade-in price so I decide to go for it.
    The finance manager and I go through the terms point by point and write the fees down on a separate slip of paper. Down payment less the trade in value, monthly payment, interest, buyout fee (which seems a bit high, but whatever), etc... Okay all done and I get my new car.
    About a year later after getting a small lump sum of cash I decide to pay off my car so I call Nissan Credit Corp. Loooong story short they tell me the buyout of my car is about THREE GRAND MORE than it should be according to the deal... Worse than that, the buyout cost is--of course--now significantly more than the current value of the car.
    I call up the dealership and ask the same finance manager why he told me the price of the car would never be more than $X and it was now X+$3,000. There must be some mistake, right?
    He then puts me on hold for about fifteen minutes. When he finally comes back on the line, he tells me he doesn't remember our conversation, but that all the terms were clear in the contract. I ask him why the numbers don't match the slip of paper where we went over the terms and he says he "doesn't remember" the paper math we did.
    Scamming scumbags!

    The only piece of paper that matters is the one you sign.

    -1
    #45 1 year ago
    Quoted from Jamesays:

    The only piece of paper that matters is the one you sign.

    Agree to disagree.

    #46 1 year ago
    Quoted from hool10:

    I don't think some of you folks read what I wrote or even the article. The way your car would be fixed or a warranty would happen is you would bring the car to to the dealership or the dealership would send a tech to the car itself.

    Never gonna happen. There aren’t anymore ‘techs’ and I certainly wouldn’t be traveling to someone’s house.

    Manufacturers and dealers have been living in a bubble and it’s gonna be painful. They’ve been screwing techs for years and the well is dry. 30 year tech speaking.

    #47 1 year ago
    Quoted from PinlordMarc:

    Agree to disagree.

    Tell it to the judge

    #48 1 year ago
    Quoted from Jamesays:

    The only piece of paper that matters is the one you sign.

    Legally speaking...

    however you are 100% correct that car dealers are lying scumbags and that biz model (let me go talk to my manager so we can figure out how to best rip you off) needs to be trash canned.

    #49 1 year ago
    Quoted from Elvishasleft:

    Legally speaking...
    however you are 100% correct that car dealers are lying scumbags and that biz model (let me go talk to my manager so we can figure out how to best rip you off) needs to be trash canned.

    exactly

    #50 1 year ago

    A seller can promise you the moon and it sucks you want to believe,I would not wait a year to read the contract I signed because its the only thing you can use to prove what agreement is made.I hope you learn from this .I had a guy make promises to me and he cleverly wrote it up so it even looked legit,however I was screwed.Now I read every word before I sign.Honestly I just pay cash now anyway fuck 1 way contracts.

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