(Topic ID: 231631)

Calling all early Bally SS experts! EBD help needed!


By Dewey68

9 months ago



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There are 65 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.
#1 9 months ago

The goal for my weekend is to try to get an EBD LE working. I picked this up a while ago from a guy retiring and moving to Florida and am just now really working on it.

History since I've had it: When I got it home it was working mostly correctly, but in the process of fixing things under the playfield it has started failing. One of the first problems was that the sounds were off from what was happening in the game. I had a different thread on that. I recapped the squawk and talk board, but I don't think that was the issue, but since I had the parts, I figured I'd go ahead and do it. I think it was a wiring issue, and might still be the root cause. I also put new pins on the expanded light board for one connector and replaced the IDC connector with a new one with the turficon (sp?) connectors.

This game has an Alltek universal solenoid driver board in it. It also has a Rottendog rectifier board as well.

Currently, the game will boot up, and I can start a game with the start button, but only the left flippers will work. The EOS switches for the left flippers have a huge arc when activated. If I push the pop bumper skirts the Alltek board will light some red LED's for different solenoids. I think that indicates a short? I took voltage readings on the Alltek board, and noticed that the 12 volt feed is coming in at 17 volts.

Also, once the game has booted, if I pull up on the two large sets of wires running from the playfield up to the the boards, the game will reset. This is why I think I have a wiring problem.

All fuses on the rectifier board are good (it has blown a fuse in there before) and all fuses under the playfield test good (a couple of them have also blown after fixing switches, etc). I did find one strand of one of the wires going to the right flipper solenoid that was touching the adjacent lug on the solenoid.

The rotating LED's on the Alltek board are good, with the #19 LED being lit green.

So, should I tackle the 12 volt issue first?

#2 9 months ago

I would start by redoing the connectors throughout the game. The input to the 12v is fine.

At minimum I would repin the connector J3 on the solenoid driver, J4 on the mpu and all 3 on the rectifier if they haven't been done. This will get you started but usually is it best to do all of the connectors on the mpu.

Report back after repining those and we will see what issues if any remain.

#3 9 months ago

Thanks for the post Xenon75, I'll start with redoing those connectors and report back. I feel a hand cramp may be in my future....

#4 9 months ago

Turns out I don't have the right size for the smaller connectors, so I'll be placing another order with GPE. Can I reuse the plastic Molex connector housings going to the rectifiler board, and should I plan on replacing the connectors going between the playfield and the backbox pictured?

IMG_2758 (resized).jpg
#5 9 months ago

Those big square ones I wouldn't worry about until there is solid proof it's bad. They are very dependable.

#6 9 months ago
Quoted from cody_chunn:

Those big square ones I wouldn't worry about until there is solid proof it's bad. They are very dependable.

Thanks Cody, so basically just replace the connectors in the backbox if they haven't been already. I haven't had a pin this old so I thought maybe those go south too.

#7 9 months ago

They can fail, but rarely. Those round or square pins have a lot of surface area to contact with.

The board headers and connectors have a very small contact point. That's why we use trifurcons, to get that added surface area contact. Most of the header pins on the boards are just worn out.

#8 9 months ago

The first thing I do with any ss pin I get is pull out all of the boards for some "touch up" work. Almost 100% of the time there are cold solder joints on one or more of the connector pins, on one or more of the boards. As a means to keep everything reliable for the future, I reflow every connector pin from the solder side of the board, and find a means to clean and shine up the pins on the side the connector plugs into. I like the Dremel tool with one of these car wash wheel looking deals. Shines the pins right up and gets all of that oxidation and corrosion off of the pins to make a nice clean connection. You can use some types of erasers, some types of wire brushes, and other options to get the same results as well. The pins in the connectors can break sometimes too.

I also make it a point to remove any chips that are in sockets (carefully!) and clean the legs on the chips and reinstall them. The chip legs can become oxidized and corroded over time as well just like the connector pins on the circuit boards. On these old Bally and Stern games I make sure to check over the transistors on the circuit boards for cold solder joints as well. I've seen quite a few lights that won't light up even though the components test out good because of cold solder joints on the transistors. This goes for coils not firing as well.

Check all of your voltages on the power supply and make sure there are no cold solder joints on there as well. Power supply should get a new cap kit, and make sure the high voltage section is putting out good voltage so that your displays don't burn up. HV rebuild kits are available out there too if its putting out WAY to high of voltage. You can rebuild it and adjust the HV to let your displays last much longer.

Your displays can get cold solder joints on them as well, so make sure to clean those connector pins up and reflow them as well.

The rottendog and altek boards should be good.

I've got an Eight Ball Deluxe so if you need some wiring pictures if something looks funky there, let me know and I'll post what you need to see.

#9 9 months ago

I really appreciate the tips guys. Just got done polishing all the pin legs and reflowing connections on the MPU.

I found one bad MCR106-1 on one of the light boards. Besides those and some 2N5060's, can you recommend any other transistors that you commonly run into from pins from this era? Most of the ones I have on hand are for newer pins.

#10 9 months ago

TIP 102/120's on a lot of Williams boards I think.

5 months later
#11 4 months ago

Reviving old thread. Finally got around to replacing all of the connectors on the CPU board, and the pin still won't boot. Looking for help on where to look next. Thanks!

#12 4 months ago

Route your wire harnesses through the loops in the backbox to help relieve some of the strain on your connectors.

#13 4 months ago

Did you replace the pins on the cable connectors, too?

#14 3 months ago
Quoted from Billc479:

Did you replace the pins on the cable connectors, too?

I didn't replace the pins on the board, but replaced the IDC wiring connectors with the crimp on connectors. This weekend I'm going to revisit Clay's guide that covers the Bally pins of this era.

#15 3 months ago

With these Bally’s, it’s best to change both the male and female of each connector.

Please use Clay’s guide as a reference. It’s been awhile, but I think he talks about the importance of changing the connectors before doing much of anything else.

Since this has been going for some time, once you get the connectors completed, I would treat the machine as “unknown “ and work it that way. Check power supply by itself, then add in one board at a time, rechecking voltages each time. The step by step for this might be part of Clay’s guide, I don’t remember. Even though you have some new boards, these steps will help verify the problem location.

#16 3 months ago

Diagnostic LED on the MPU board is solid, no flashes. For clarification purposes, does it matter if my 12 volt supply is providing 17 volts?

#17 3 months ago
Quoted from Dewey68:

Finally got around to replacing all of the connectors on the CPU board, and the pin still won't boot.

What changed between your first post when the game was booting and now where the MPU board wont start?

Quoted from Dewey68:

does it matter if my 12 volt supply is providing 17 volts?

Not really, it's normally between 14.5 - 16.5 volts.
What voltages do you read at TP5 and TP2 on the MPU board? Use TP4 on the MPU board as the ground connection for your multi-meter.

Post some clear high resolution pictures of the MPU board.

#18 3 months ago
Quoted from Quench:

What changed between your first post when the game was booting and now where the MPU board wont start?

Not really, it's normally between 14.5 - 16.5 volts.
What voltages do you read at TP5 and TP2 on the MPU board? Use TP4 on the MPU board as the ground connection for your multi-meter.
Post some clear high resolution pictures of the MPU board.

Since originally getting the game I have fixed some bad connections under the playfield and replaced one bad transistor on the lighting board, and replaced the caps on the Squawk and Talk board. I replaced the IDC connectors with pin on connectors for the MPU board, and reflowed the solder on the header pins on the MPU board.

TP5 is showing 5.01 volts, and TP2 is 17.35 volts. I did notice that when I first turned the game on the LED was off and I had nothing at TP2. Turned it off and back on and had 17.35 volts.

Here are some shots of the MPU board.

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#19 3 months ago

You have the U2 ROM chip installed in the U1 socket - this will cause the MPU board to fail the first LED flash. Install it in the U2 socket.

Your pictures are not high resolution enough and I can't tell if U6 is installed 180 degrees out (the label is upside down). The short side of U6 that has the notch should be on the left - look at the RAM chip at U7 underneath it with the notch on the left. If U6 is installed backwards with the notch on the right side then it's now fried.

Quoted from Dewey68:

reflowed the solder on the header pins on the MPU board.

Any chance solder bridged across two pins?

Quoted from Dewey68:

I did notice that when I first turned the game on the LED was off and I had nothing at TP2.

The voltage for TP2 comes from pin 12 of connector J4 at the MPU board (it comes from the solenoid driver board at J3 pin 11 (red-green wire)). Check the terminal crimps at each end.

MPU board looks pretty clean (no battery corrosion).
I see a bare pin at the bottom of MPU pin header J3 so it looks like the connector J3 plug is sitting up one position too many.

#20 3 months ago

Thanks for the help Quench. I'll take a look tonight when I get home from work on U6. I forgot that I did pull the chips on the board and cleaned the pins so it is very possible that I put it in backwards and put U2 in the wrong socket. Are those RAM chips hard to obtain now or readily available?

#21 3 months ago
Quoted from Dewey68:

Are those RAM chips hard to obtain now or readily available?

You can get replacement game EPROMs on ebay. They're generally available in two different EPROM chip types - one being a "2532" and the other "2732". These chips have different pinouts so to save you headaches in re-configuring your MPU board for the chip type, you'd want to get the same chip type that you currently have. We'd need to see clear closeup pics of U2 and U6 to determine which they are. You can probably read the model yourself by taking a close look.

But first determine if U6 is backwards or not.

#22 3 months ago

Quench is da man!

It boots! (resized).jpg
#23 3 months ago

U6 was correctly installed. Moved U2 to it's correct socket and installed the connector at J3 correctly and the game booted up. If you're in the Chicago area let me know and drinks are on me! I've got a couple of lights still out but this is most encouraging! Thanks again!

#24 3 months ago

The game boots, but it's back to calling out the wrong setting when I turn it on and it won't take credits. When I power it on now it says "5 ball" and then when it finishes booting "eight ball deluxe...4 ball". It was playing 3 ball when it was booting correctly. It plays the sound for credits but it doesn't add them.

#25 3 months ago

Prime example of my motto of waiting 48 hours before waiving the victory flag.
Stay strong.

#26 3 months ago
Quoted from Dewey68:

it won't take credits... It plays the sound for credits but it doesn't add them.

Your credit display above shows you have 40 credits. That's the maximum credits this game supports with factory ROMs. DIP switches 25 and 26 on the MPU board configure maximum credits between 10 and 40. If you want support for more than 40 credits you need aftermarket ROMs. On location games were generally set to 10 credits max preventing players clocking up too many credits.

Quoted from Dewey68:

When I power it on now it says "5 ball" and then when it finishes booting "eight ball deluxe...4 ball". It was playing 3 ball when it was booting correctly.

The number of balls per game is configured by DIP switches 31 and 32. Do you still have both these switches "off" for 3 ball?
When exactly is it announcing "5 ball"

#27 3 months ago
Quoted from Quench:

Your credit display above shows you have 40 credits. That's the maximum credits this game supports with factory ROMs. DIP switches 25 and 26 on the MPU board configure maximum credits between 10 and 40. If you want support for more than 40 credits you need aftermarket ROMs. On location games were generally set to 10 credits max preventing players clocking up too many credits.

I thought that was the match for the last game. Maybe I should have put the lower glass back on. So it's taking credits, but the start button isn't starting a game.

Quoted from Quench:

The number of balls per game is configured by DIP switches 31 and 32. Do you still have both these switches "off" for 3 ball?
When exactly is it announcing "5 ball"

They are both set to off. The game says "5 ball" while it is booting (around flash 3-4 of the MPU LED sequence). Then after it boots it calls out "eight ball deluxe....4 ball"

#28 3 months ago
Quoted from Dewey68:

They are both set to off. The game says "5 ball" while it is booting (around flash 3-4 of the MPU LED sequence). Then after it boots it calls out "eight ball deluxe....4 ball"

Can you remove all playfield balls from the game and make sure all drop targets are raised. Then go to switch test mode (by presssing the little red button inside the coin door 5 times). What does the game report in terms of any closed switches?

#29 3 months ago

Switch test showed #31, left slingshot. Found a bent switch lug that was touching the other lug. Bent it over, now switch test is flashing 0. Rebooted, same behavior, calling out 5 ball during boot process, after boot, "EBD.....4 ball". I did have to power cycle the game to get it to boot correctly after the test.

#30 3 months ago
Quoted from Dewey68:

Rebooted, same behavior, calling out 5 ball during boot process, after boot, "EBD.....4 ball". I did have to power cycle the game to get it to boot correctly after the test.

Is the game playing 3 or 4 balls?
The 5 ball callout during MPU LED tests shouldn't be happening.
Are the solenoids all working properly or are incorrect solenoids sometimes activating?

#31 3 months ago

It won't start a game. The start button is not registering. I guess I could test that with the switch test......actually, the start button is probably not on the switch matrix.....

#32 3 months ago
Quoted from Dewey68:

actually, the start button is probably not on the switch matrix.....

The start button is on the switch matrix - the manual calls it the "Credit Button" which can be a bit confusing. It's switch 06.

Have you tried to work out what other switches aren't working to see if there's any pattern? i.e. all switches on a single row or column, etc.

#33 3 months ago

Credit button, along with all other switches are working in the switch test. Sounds like it may be time for this MPU to get some work done.

#34 3 months ago

Try this. You may need a helper.

While holding the credit button in, gently flex the connectors on the right edge of the MPU board. One of 'em has the credit switch circuit. If it starts a game, you have connector work to do.

#35 3 months ago
Quoted from Dewey68:

Credit button, along with all other switches are working in the switch test.

The Start (Credit) button is working in switch test mode but it won't start a game? Just checking but the game has credits, right?
When you press the start button in attract mode exactly what happens?

#36 3 months ago

Tried flexing the MPU while pushing the credit button, nothing. Quench, the game still has the 40 credits. Credit button does nothing in attract mode.

Earlier the game called out "Shoot the five ball" instead of "Eight ball deluxe - 4 ball", but a couple of boots later it went back to the "EBD 4 ball". Just mentioning it.

Are the flipper switches supposed to register in the switch test?

#37 3 months ago

Hmm, can you go into audit mode at book keeping item number 06.
This will show the Current Credits, presume 40. Then press the S33 switch on the MPU board to reset credits to zero.
Exit audit mode and let the game reboot.
Add a credit via the coin switches and press the start button. Does it work?

Quoted from Dewey68:

Are the flipper switches supposed to register in the switch test?

No, EBD doesn't have any switch matrix switches on the flippers - some games do for features like lane change, etc.

#38 3 months ago

You probably already went over this, but just to be sure: you put a ball in the game, right?
If so, run the switch test and make sure the game sees that the ball is in the outhole.

#39 3 months ago
Quoted from frunch:

You probably already went over this, but just to be sure: you put a ball in the game, right?
If so, run the switch test and make sure the game sees that the ball is in the outhole.

No, this was done without a ball in the game. I'll check that tonight when I get home.

Quench, I'll perform your steps as well, I really appreciate the suggestions guys.

#40 3 months ago

I only suggested it because a lot of games won't start without a ball sitting in the outhole

You're in good hands here, you'll be flipping that wonderful game in no time!

#41 3 months ago

The plot thickens. I reset the credits in the audit mode, or at least I thought I did. Turned the game back on, it still showed 40 credits. Wouldn't start a game.

Went back into test mode, and noticed that the pin would reset during the solenoid test when it was firing the bank that knocks down the drop targets on the right for the ball targets. Raised the playfield, pulled the bank of solenoids off the housing and didn't see anything obviously wrong with the wiring, so I reinstalled them.

With the playfield raised, turned the pin on, and didn't get the "5 ball" callout and got a normal boot, complete with the sound effects that I had forgotten about when the game boots and all the lights flash. Now it shows 19 credits, but it still won't start a game. Put the playfield down, and got the screwy boot with the "5 ball" callout during the boot process and back to "Eight ball deluxe....4 ball" without the sound effects.

I unplugged the the wiring running to the right drop target assembly, and now the game boots normally, playfield raised, lowered, whatever, so I must have a wiring issue with the wiring running through those connectors. I noticed I can't do any tests with that bundle disconnected so without looking at the manual I'm guessing some of those wires run to the coin door.

#42 3 months ago

Some of the coils on that bank are two-diode jobs. If a single-diode coil is fitted, it can cause crazy stuff.

The start button switch insulator paper missing, allowing the switch blade to be grounded can cause weirdness.

Also, enter lamp test and make sure the solenoid expander lite blinks and the relay clicks.

#43 3 months ago
Quoted from cody_chunn:

Also, enter lamp test and make sure the solenoid expander lite blinks and the relay clicks.

Also make sure you have a regular *incandescent* bulb installed for the solenoid expander--having an LED installed can cause weird behavior as well.

#44 3 months ago

Busy weekend but I did have some time to do some troubleshooting.

Turned out I pulled off the lower right connector from the MPU board when I was messing with the playfield which caused the test button not to work.

Since the solenoid bank that drops the right drop targets kept making the game reset during the solenoid test, I pulled the bank of solenoids out and looked over all the wiring once again. When you run the solenoid test out of the housing the bank fires without any issues. Put it back in the game, and the game would reboot during the solenoid test when it gets to the bank. I resoldered a few connections that looked suspect, but it didn't seem to matter. It seemed like it was the position of the wires once the solenoid bank was in place more than anything, but I didn't see anything looking like a short. To a make a short story long, after messing with the bank it started working in the solenoid test while mounted without the pin rebooting.

Oh, no LED's in this game and the relay clicks fine when testing, BTW.

The switch test will now show that the A rollover switch is closed if I raise and lower the playfield during the test. It looks fine. Ugh.

Quench, what setting in the audits is for credits? I'm not seeing any number that matches the credits displayed when I cycle through the audits. I couldn't find it in the manual.

Since the lower right connector kept coming off the MPU board and those header pins were the only ones that were original I decided to replace them. Two pads lifted while removing the pins, so at this point I may just send the board off to have it looked at and have a pro fix the pads and put in new pins.

#45 3 months ago
Quoted from Dewey68:

Quench, what setting in the audits is for credits? I'm not seeing any number that matches the credits displayed when I cycle through the audits. I couldn't find it in the manual.

See the diagram below, audit item number 05 is the current credits.

Quoted from Dewey68:

The switch test will now show that the A rollover switch is closed if I raise and lower the playfield during the test. It looks fine. Ugh.

Might be an idea to have a close look at the wiring harness coming off the back of the playfield to see if there's any damage/hacks/shorts.
.
BookKeeping_CurrentCredits.jpg

#46 3 months ago

To get into test mode ground MPU J3 P1.

The ground return actually goes to driver board J2 P7, so if that plug is off of the board and/or mpu J3, the coin door diag/audit button will not work.

you can also get to switch test. then pull MPU j3 and j2 off and close switches at the MPU board by going strobe to return and checking to see that the proper number registers. that will confirm the MPU is OK switch matrix wise.

For the solenoid that resets the MPU, make sure the diode on the coil is good and in the right direction. You could get the game into solenoid test and unplug the switches to see if it is a slam tilt problem. I'm not sure if the game will slam tilt in solenoid test tho. The center coin switch closing during solenoid test making a NMI type thing may lock or reset the MPU if pushed in the test modes.

2 months later
#47 13 days ago

Okay, reviving this old thread. I took the CPU board over to test it in a working EBD because I thought the credit button was working in test mode. The CPU board worked fine. After putting the board back in and running a switch test I noticed that it's not switch 6, the credit button that comes up when I push the credit button, but switch 5, inline back target. I checked the diode at the switch and it tests good.

I've been looking over the wiring schematics and I haven't found the credit button switch yet. If anyone has next steps on troubleshooting this please let me know.

Edit: found the credit switch, but I don't see how this could tie in to the rear inline switch.

#48 11 days ago

here is a possibility.....solder splash on a switch......check your switches and make sure that there is not a blob of solder stuck to the fiber stack.........also examine your other target switches.....something is crossed...

#49 10 days ago

Looks like the rear inline target and credit button are both on the same switch matrix strobe line, ST0.

Has the female connector for J2 or J3 been re-pinned for the mpu? Almost sounds like it could have a wire on the wrong pin or something like that.
1966438453.png2026343671.png

#50 10 days ago
Quoted from frunch:

Looks like the rear inline target and credit button are both on the same switch matrix strobe line, ST0.
Has the female connector for J2 or J3 been re-pinned for the mpu? Almost sounds like it could have a wire on the wrong pin or something like that.
[quoted image][quoted image]

Yes, all connectors have been redone for the MPU board. I tried to pull one wire at a time and crimp on the end and place it in the new connector, but it's very possible I screwed up.

I'm not the greatest at reading schematics. Looking at the above drawing, pin 12 should go to the in-line back target. Is it pin 2 that should be going to the credit switch? I'll take a picture of my wiring when I get home tonight and paste it.

Thanks for the help!

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