(Topic ID: 240165)

Calling all Classic Stern/Bally flipper experts


By Arcade

1 year ago



Topic Stats

  • 41 posts
  • 12 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 1 year ago by Arcade
  • Topic is favorited by 2 Pinsiders

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#1 1 year ago

I have a Seawitch that I just messed up something on the right flipper.

Here is the back story.

1. Noticed the game had the wrong flipper coils installed from previous owner. Way to strong.
2. Ordered in correct coils.
3. installed correct coils.
4. Left one is working awesome.
5. Right flipper blew the f4 fuse on first push of the flipper button.
6. Ah ha. Previous owner had put the coil in upside down, so when I put the new one in correctly that made lugs 1 and 3 reversed. This caused me to wire the coil backwards.
7. Swapped wires on lugs 1 and 3.
8. Game plays great for one game.
9. Now here is where things get weird. On my second game the right flipper just slowly keeps getting weaker and weaker until it just gives up.
10. So now if I start a game and pop the flipper button really fast, it will try to move. but if I press the button normally both right flippers just sit there.

I have cleaned and adjusted all switch contacts on flipper and button so I do not believe the problem is with those.
I am guessing I must have messed up something on the coil (Diodes seem ok), or the board some place.
Anyone else come across the crazy behavior or know what might cause it? (besides me. lol)

#2 1 year ago

I'd replace the diodes just to be safe. Try junoering the eos?

#3 1 year ago

Did you check the solenoid driver board for bad solder joints?

#4 1 year ago
Quoted from Inkochnito:

Did you check the solenoid driver board for bad solder joints?

I would answer no to that. And I will eventually get to things like that.
The game has been flipping just fine for a long time.
This issue was certainly caused by the new coil install.
I have not messed with anything in the backbox yet.

#5 1 year ago

A weak slow flipper is usually a problem with the EOS switch. The EOS should be wired across the holding coil (thinner wires) of the flipper coil. Make sure the EOS is closed , thus shorting out the holding coil, and does not open until about 80% of the flipper stroke. Adjust the EOS by pushing the plunger link in with your finger and not by turning the flipper.

1 week later
#6 1 year ago

OK guys. Finally had time to work on this a bit. Still no luck
I have tried replacing the diodes on the coil. No help.
Put in an entire new coil. No help.
Messed with the end of stroke switch even though I never messed with it from when the game worked fine. No help.
Checked solder joints even though the board was working perfectly before coil change. No help.

It just makes no sense. I have done lots of flipper repair in my days but I have never seen a flipper start off working fine and then slowly during the course of a game just get weaker and weaker until it just barely moves now. Upper right flipper does not even try and move anymore.

Any ideas are welcome. Very frustrating because the game worked great with the wrong coil. Should have left well enough alone but it was just flipping the ball way to hard.

#7 1 year ago

Get a look at the traces from the flipper relay to the header pins on the back of the solenoid driver board. I had 2 SDBs that had burnt traces in that exact area, soldering in jumpers corrected it on both boards.

I can't say what kind of issues the flippers were having prior to the repairs though--in both cases i was going thru the boards and fixing/upgrading them before booting either of them up for the first time.

If everything looks good there, I'd get another close look at the EOS switches and follow BigAl's advice for gapping them. Make sure to file the contacts on the EOS switches and the cabinet flipper switches if you haven't already. Good luck!

#8 1 year ago

Also check the switches using a meter - I've had switches look good, but ohm'd out bad.

#9 1 year ago

Ok. More info.
I was able to get my hands on a new remake solenoid driver board that has diagnostic LEDs.
It has got to be a wiring issue with the coil so I took photos to see if anyone can help me out with what may be wrong.
With the new board I can see that everything is fine when that game turned on in attract mode.
But once a game is started the Q15 LED will lock on. The Flipper will flip once when Flipper button is pressed then stop. I powered it off quickly so as to not harm the new board.
In the photos below I have 3 wires on the top lug, one on the middle and two on the lower.
I swear this is how the old coil was wired but maybe I missed something.

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#11 1 year ago

I can’t tell which wire you have going to the middle lug?

The eos closest to the coil should have one wire to the center lug, and one wire to the banded side (top lug in your case)

#12 1 year ago

Thanks that is helpful. Pretty sure that is how mine are.
I now know that q15 should always be on so that is not the issue.
After messing around with a meter, I compared the left coil in attract mode with the broken right coil.
The left coil has a steady 19 volts on all three lugs.
The right coil only has 19 volts on the center lug and 2.13 on the outer two.
I am now betting there is something wrong with the lug that has 3 wires attached. It is very hard to twist 3 wires together and get on the lug correctly and I am now betting I have a weak connection. I will clip and rewire after dinner and report back.
Thanks for all the help.

#13 1 year ago

Double check the resistance on the coil. Compare against the good coil. This would be with the game off.

#14 1 year ago
Quoted from djblouw:

Double check the resistance on the coil. Compare against the good coil. This would be with the game off.

and with EOS open

#15 1 year ago

Just took all wires off the coil and EOS and made sure they were all soldered on nicely.
Did not help at all
Just checked ohms with power off on both coils. Both left and right coils are the same with 3.2 ohms on one lug and .05 on opposite lug.
Have not tested with EOS open yet
**Edit** tested exactly the same with EOS open

#16 1 year ago

May have just tracked down a big issue
This is my right Flipper switch stack.
Is there a good source for these?
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#18 1 year ago

Thanks. I remember the conversation now back when I forgot to order these. lol
We can build our own or use this high current plug and play switch stack from PBR as well. GTB-B17838+
Both of mine are crappy so hopefully this will fix my issue.

#19 1 year ago

I use wms 03-7811 hi voltage EOS switches in almost every application, sometimes with taking the stack apart and reusing the blades in something else. I got a really good deal on a lot of them years ago. I've also built my own using PBR's blades and high voltage contacts.

#20 1 year ago
Quoted from slochar:

I use wms 03-7811 hi voltage EOS switches in almost every application, sometimes with taking the stack apart and reusing the blades in something else. I got a really good deal on a lot of them years ago. I've also built my own using PBR's blades and high voltage contacts.

Awesome. Looks like the 03-7811 is just $3.36 a piece from PBL.
As they are normally closed I assume you just bend them open with a leaf adjusting tool and are good to go?
There is even a chance I may have some EOS switch stacks in my parts bins.

#21 1 year ago

Ok.
I do have a couple of these EOS switches left over from an old Flipper rebuild kit.
Should they be good enough to try?

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#22 1 year ago
Quoted from Arcade:

As they are normally closed I assume you just bend them open with a leaf adjusting tool and are good to go?

They should be NC?

#23 1 year ago
Quoted from zacaj:

They should be NC?

No.
The Williams EOS part that Slochar recommended 03-7811 are a normally closed switch.
I was just asking if he made them normally open to use as Flipper button stacks

#24 1 year ago

Do you mean that your right EOS is broken or the right secondary switch that controls the upper flipper?

#25 1 year ago
Quoted from zacaj:

Do you mean that your right EOS is broken or the right secondary switch that controls the upper flipper?

My actual flipper button switch. (The photo in post#16)
Nothing on the coils.

#26 1 year ago

You want beefier switches for the cabinet with points

#27 1 year ago
Quoted from Arcade:

No.
The Williams EOS part that Slochar recommended 03-7811 are a normally closed switch.
I was just asking if he made them normally open to use as Flipper button stacks

No, not for the buttons. I forget which buttons I buy for those but they are generics as well. I was talking about the end of stroke switches on the flipper mechs only.

#28 1 year ago
Quoted from slochar:

No, not for the buttons. I forget which buttons I buy for those but they are generics as well. I was talking about the end of stroke switches on the flipper mechs only.

Thanks.
I will then stick with the Pinball resource Gottlieb high current replacements for my flipper buttons.
They are closed until Tuesday because of the holiday so I have to wait a bit until I can order anyway.

#29 1 year ago

One thing that I see wrong in your pics is that the flipper coil is installed incorrectly. The solder lugs should be by the coil stop. Also the EOS contacts look dirty. They can be cleaned up with some 400 grit sand paper. It's hard to see from the pics, but what is actually opening the EOS? It looks like the set screw is hitting it. There should be a small stud sticking up that activates the EOS. Also make sure the flipper is moving freely by moving it up and down by hand. I don't have access to my games at this time to verify your wiring. The fact that the upper flipper isn't working makes me wonder. The closing of the outer lower EOS switch should send power to the upper flipper. It should fire unless there's a separate issue with the upper flipper.

#30 1 year ago
Quoted from Lovef2k:

One thing that I see wrong in your pics is that the flipper coil is installed incorrectly. The solder lugs should be by the coil stop. Also the EOS contacts look dirty. They can be cleaned up with some 400 grit sand paper. It's hard to see from the pics, but what is actually opening the EOS? It looks like the set screw is hitting it. There should be a small stud sticking up that activates the EOS. Also make sure the flipper is moving freely by moving it up and down by hand. I don't have access to my games at this time to verify your wiring. The fact that the upper flipper isn't working makes me wonder. The closing of the outer lower EOS switch should send power to the upper flipper. It should fire unless there's a separate issue with the upper flipper.

First of all, thanks for helping. I agree with all the EOS info you have as well.
And it does appear with no depth to the photo that the set screw is hitting the leaf switch, it is well above though and does not touch it at all.
Where I do dissagree with you is my coil direction. If you check Vids ultimate guide to flippers you will find these two examples.
But again I do appreciate any and all ideas.

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#31 1 year ago

Coil direction shouldn't affect the functionality

#32 1 year ago
Quoted from zacaj:

Coil direction shouldn't affect the functionality

Yep

#33 1 year ago
Quoted from Arcade:

First of all, thanks for helping. I agree with all the EOS info you have as well.
And it does appear with no depth to the photo that the set screw is hitting the leaf switch, it is well above though and does not touch it at all.
Where I do dissagree with you is my coil direction. If you check Vids ultimate guide to flippers you will find these two examples.
But again I do appreciate any and all ideas.[quoted image][quoted image]

It really doesn't matter but all of the early Stern and Bally flippers I see have the coil mounted with the lugs by the coil stop. Yeah some will say it's bad because the the vibration of the plunger hitting the coil is too close to the diodes of the coil.

#34 1 year ago
Quoted from Lovef2k:

It really doesn't matter but all of the early Stern and Bally flippers I see have the coil mounted with the lugs by the coil stop. Yeah some will say it's bad because the the vibration of the plunger hitting the coil is too close to the diodes of the coil.

I agree, they of course work just fine either way.
Just that Vid. Pinsides resident expert, has a very strong opinion about this. lol.
And for over 30 years I have been installing my coils lugs away from the coil stops.

#35 1 year ago
Quoted from Arcade:

I agree, they of course work just fine either way.
Just that Vid. Pinsides resident expert, has a very strong opinion about this. lol.
And for over 30 years I have been installing my coils lugs away from the coil stops.

Have you made any progress?

#36 1 year ago
Quoted from Lovef2k:

Have you made any progress?

Read post #16 he found the flipper switch in the cabinet was burnt out.

#37 1 year ago
Quoted from Mitch:

Read post #16 he found the flipper switch in the cabinet was burnt out.

I saw that. Just wondering if he replaced yet.

#38 1 year ago
Quoted from Arcade:

I will then stick with the Pinball resource Gottlieb high current replacements for my flipper buttons.
They are closed until Tuesday because of the holiday so I have to wait a bit until I can order anyway.

He is ordering them today. So I doubt they are installed yet.

#39 1 year ago
Quoted from Mitch:

He is ordering them today. So I doubt they are installed yet.

Correct.
Pinball Resource has been closed for the holiday.
They open again today.
So I will be about a week away from getting my parts.
Just checked and I have my order confirmation already

#40 1 year ago
Quoted from Arcade:

Correct.
Pinball Resource has been closed for the holiday.
They open again today.
So I will be about a week away from getting my parts.
Just checked and I have my order confirmation already

You can touch the wires together just to see if the flippers fire.

#41 1 year ago

Got the new Flipper button switches soldered in place today.
Working like a champ.
Must have just been a crazy coincidence that the switch blades quit at the same time the coil was changed out.
Crazy pinball gods messing with me I guess.

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