this is just people optimistic about what the new extended version will bring. Note the 'can bring'

I find it hard to claim any of it is 'obviously' anything given we know nothing but 10k foot views about it. But the poster was asking if the commentator had some insider access.. that wasn't inferred in the quote.

Yet you confirm " other than to say the author of the opinion has not played the Lyman code."

I didn't misread anything. The part I cited was to clarify the future tense of the code, not to suggest it was already in place (as played).. which you also confirmed, they hadn't played it. The line about what Lyman 'will bring' is just another forward looking statement that isn't the author's actual play experience.. which is what the actual question was about.

I really don't care what people want to project the future product to be - until we know what it is, it's still largely clouded with projection and hope. I am sure they will release a great product... but you're not going to find me writing reviews of it yet

Besides good will for the radio silence and months of delays?

My garage door openers shipped with IOU cards unexpectedly due to parts shortages- but it kept them shipping and my door works

Im also not on the website asking when my door opener will ship

looks like I'll have some unboxing insight tomorrow

their priority is physically getting games produced not really re-calculating the timeframe as things change daily due to various hurdles, supply chain issues, weather, covid, etc. Also having to then stop and give constant time frames out as again things change daily, only delay them more……so while updates are nice, please be patient and know things are moving)

Lol such excuses.

This projection and tracking of resources is literally what the production managers do to ensure they have the parts and sequencing in harmony so they don’t end up in a starvation or out of order situation. They don’t just ‘work on what is there that day’ or whatever.

Sure they may not have confidence in a time when some issue comes up but don’t make up stories like they are putting down tools to try to make up new estimates. Comical.

Its here!

Pretty standard setup.

Nice thick box from CGC
Spiral bound manual, spare sling plastics, fuses, spiral bound manual. And yes there is a keyfob plastic

045FE12D-75D3-4AD8-B44B-192B5952532C (resized).jpeg

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The manual is truly legit - fold out schematics and all.

No mention of shoot out mode in video display as I thought people were discussing?

Dude really? I was setting up pins not reading today’s posts

Women's tournament this weekend, so games need to be in good shape so all were getting TLC. This week saw Rush Premium and CCR go in, room re-arranged so the lewd mouth'd Big Lewbowski wasn't right next to the kid-friendly Super Mario Bros and CCR can get some line-of-sight... so that was moving 4 games and re-leveling those.. then Rush Pro and AC/DC prem out and getting those ready for sale.

It takes a reasonable amount of time to swap games when you go through all your location steps rather than just putting it up on legs and going like we do at home Never mind trying to avoid all the lookie-lous who want to talk to you constantly while you try to work

The guns in the apron are going to be a real liability with the playfield in the up position. Someone needs to come up with a bumper attachment to the head that will allow the center of the apron to contact the head of the game BEFORE the guns make contact.

Oh, and don't grab that chrome bar in front of the apron... it'll bend in a heart beat.

One kudos to CGC... the tilt bob was centered perfectly right out of the box. No reworking the hoop like you gotta do with every new Stern.

Only generic inserts in the coin reject buttons though :/

That will stop marring but I don’t think thry should take the weight at all. Nice simple mitigation tho… something i can do easily onsite

The point is to avoid the contact all together- not just cushion it. Today the guns are the only point of contact and take the weight and contact basically on the corner of the head.

You’d have to put something that covers the corner or protrudes a good bit

I think the foam insulation cut so it fits at the center of the apron is worth trying. Unfortunately that is a tough spot to reach to put up there everytime you gotta lift the playfield. A more perm solution is desirable that won’t fall off and fades away.

yeah lots of EBs. I normally set a max of 3… but right away i was reconsidering the settings on this one.

I also am reconsidering my slope. I swt it up right at 6.5/6.4… but feels like it could be faster. But shots to the center ramp are the concern… even at 6.5 lots of half ramps were seen.

Phone app is good as long as the calibration is recent. Simple torpedo levels and inclinometer is good. Digital levels are not any more accurate- they are kinda overkill for pins. Keep a simple 8” torpedo level as confidence and use pinguy for most stuff.

Even the more pricey digital levels are still only 0.1 +\- which is as close you normally dial a game for anyway.

So… I thought my interlock bypass switch was wired wrong or broke. Turns out i think it’s just s software thing. The game gives you the high power disabled’ warning even if the interlock is pulled out…. Which is incorrect.

I also had problems with one of the drop targets not latching and staying up reliably.

Could not find anything out of place - it just would easily unlatch with the coil action. I solved by bending the finger tab that pushes the target down slightly so it did not reset the target as much. Slightly reducing how far it pushed the target up.

Unfortunately it looks line the plastic ledges that hold the drop targets up are riveted to thr drop target bracket… which will make replacement was harder

Thx LTG... has been too long since I had a WPC with physical interlock.. plus in the CGC design the interlock doesn't appear to be a physical break but simply a switch input to the Driver board (which in turn drives the transistors to connect the power) so it's a bit different. I had incorrectly assumed it was CPU reading it, but it's just the gate input to the cut-off circuits so just part of the driver board's circuitry.

Probably got too spoiled with too many modern sterns... their high voltage warning is far less obnoxious

I found the one target was moving front to back while working the reset coil from latched height to bottoming out the plunger while the other targets moved perfectly up and down w/o front/back movement while the same motion was happening. So the range of movement was different in some minor way for that target. The extra movement was enough it wouldn't latch reliably. The lower spring were my next thought because the target was not staying parallel to the bracket, but don't carry those in my bag and a good bit more disassembly. The extra motion was very peculiar to me as the other targets moved perfectly up and down w/o that extra slop.

A++ presentation from Butch.

It's all about his prep, informed, and covering relevant, interesting things. A worthy seminar and so happy it was streamed by TPF.

It really makes people appreciate what went into the game. And very notably, HE SPOKE TO THE CONCERNS PEOPLE HAD... instead of just pretending it didn't exist. Seriously.. if they just told people 'we are making improvements based on what we observed in the show games'... people would have been thrilled!

Kudos Butch. And yes, I noticed the drawings of the topper when I got my game and was blown away by the investment it was. It was clear from the manual how much effort was put in.

Butch and the 'marketing department' did great here!

unfortunately Ryan's defense of using distributors to distribute information 'even in the day of internet' in the Connected Pinball seminar was pretty damn awful. (34min mark - https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1437660036) Trying to articulate customers calling distributors, so distributors can call CGC is better... no, the point is you EDUCATE your distributors so they don't have to call you each time. You use distributors so you don't have to staff those functions - not because a multi-level telephone game is a more efficient way to pass notes... smh

Also, when you are in sales (even head of it!) - you don't use not knowing your customers as a reason to say its better to talk to someone else. Even if you think it!

CGC are internet dinosaurs... let's hope that's a front they can see an interest in improving. They still take the angle that information generates more questions.. instead of acknowledging well thought out information actually does help.

TBD - It's the 'lyman code' /extended version of the game that will be sold in the future. Expands the original game with new rules/content.

Not to be confuses with what CGC is shipping now - which is the enhanced/polished version of the original WMS game that rounded out the gaps in the original game. This is the remake version shipping with all games.

Nope - just sit on your hands

Good news is historically once CGC starts getting games out the door they were pretty good in numbers. So really until your distro gets a heads up to pay for his games, you really have no firm estimates...

not sure of the photo exactly... but mine has a rubber nipple back behind bart. We had one stuck ball early, but it hasn't been problematic.

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Well our game is very early… i’ve had it almost a month now.

My one concern is the lip that holds the target up is not servicable Those lips break all the time on Sterns and it's basically the same catch mechanism, but with a cutout in it.. I guess for the drop coil plunger.

It's up in there and riveted vs held with hardware. So it's a unique part and not tool swappable.

because one person is guaranteed to get a game.. while the other 'might have an opportunity come up...'

CGC doesn't ship based on the order you placed with your distributor.

Pins of the various eras typically range from about 200-300lbs. Just get a normal appliance handcart - like this
https://www.harborfreight.com/600-lb-capacity-appliance-hand-truck-60520.html

CCr I don't know the exact weight, but it's peers are usually less than 300lbs.

No, it's an up post.

Is a drop target staying up? It's likely the drop target is not staying up and being registered as a hit... thus ending the mode. test your drop targets and see if they stay in the up position. One probably isn't.

For our case, which I posted about this earlier... just bending the tab on the reset downward just slightly solved our problem. Target was being pushed so far it would move around too much when reset to up position that it just skipped/bounced over the target lip. It didn't just stay parallel to the bracket after clearly the lip.

Do not rely on game play testing - use the diagnostics in the game and cycle the targets to see their consistency.

It's a product to wet apply decals. You spray the contact surface of the decal with liberal amounts of rapid tac (or soap+water mix) before placing your decal or art blades. The wet application allows you to reposition the decal w/o it sticking firmly, then when in place, you wipe/squeegee the decal from the center to the edges to push out all the juice/water and leave it to dry and done!

the 'wet method' is more forgiving for placing large decals like art blades or cabinet decals.

The ledge the targets catch on is basically same size as Stern Drop targets. The issue as I've seen it is not 'lack of movement' but too much movement. They are reset so hard/far they move and don't reliably latch. That's probably why your lessening the return spring makes it catch a bit easier. I just bent the tab that resets the target down slightly it and it stopped pushing the target up so far so it stopped getting pushed forward/back at the top of its motion which was causing it to dance over the latch.

The sharp lockdown bars is not new for CGC. Our CC wasn't particularly bad.. but it's a recurring theme with their stock. Just knock it down some.. I'd suggest starting with the lockdown bar, you normally shouldn't get edge exposed to the side rails.

Cointaker had the topper and powercoat… so should have been an le

SE Plus do not have the gunmetal powdercoat. The game in the Cointaker booth was not for sale.

Your drop target is not staying up. Go into test mode and confirm if each targety will reset and stay up on its own.

Then adjust any that don’t by looking at the spring or bending slightly as described in the thread

Cc has been staying very clean with the factory rubber on location. Much better than my recent sterns.

Hardware store dude can buy that standard stuff anywhere

Meh - we're the easy ones relative. Just remember all the threads when noobs come into the hobby and expect sellers and companies to act like a normal consumer product company... free returns, big warranties, customer support, availability, etc.

Most people when they spend big bucks - they expect some time in return for their purchase. We hobbyists are the ones that know the roots of commercial operation - not consumer retail.

Another meh - this is hiding from the problem instead of embracing transparency. The biggest problem is distortion and hearsay.. which is best addressed by direct, clear statements that are clarified if needed. CGC instead takes the 'secretive' approach to everything because they think it's better. I say Boo that man

To drive sales and demand for 'exclusive'/limited kinds of titles of course. You undercut your own demand generation if you water down exclusivity after the fact.

Bop shares only the physical playfield with bop 1.0. Bop 1.0 doesn’t have modes, the display, etc

CGC extended is setting up to be an expansion of the cc game and concept - not something entirely different like the 2.0 projects have done

This conversation always gets convoluted because people confuse 'more' and 'varied'. Lack of depth is not necessarily the same as simple.

Games can either be shallow in that.. there is little to do
or games can be shallow in that there is little WORTH doing or much variation to it.
Games with 'depth' are really about having good variation in strategy or layers that also reward that variation.

Simply adding 20 more modes of the same thing isn't adding depth - that's breadth.

So the real conversation is really 'how much' and 'how varied'. For instance, a game may have a lot to do.. but if it's just a grind without much variation.. that's breadth, not depth. Contrast that with another game.. that may give a lot of variation to play through strategy or variation in a smaller number of objectives. Examples like opportunistic play mechanics like stacking, or boosters, or variable scoring opportunities that give players multiple paths to progress.. or reward players differently depending on their success.

So in a lot of ways, a more direct way to look at it is.. 'how much strategy/variation does the game offer to score big points?' TAF offers a ton of modes, but not necessarily a huge amount of strategy in how to play. Contrast with a complex game like Batman66.. where there are multiple layers people try to weave to unlock massive scoring. A game like Demolition Man has a decent number of modes.. but they are overshadowed by the potential of Multiball.. which is pretty basic to unlock and abuse over and over. So Demo Man is an example of 'shallow' because of scoring balance and lack of variation... large portions of the game become irrelevant. Contrast that with a game like Shadow... where it's not just one so obvious 'one way to play to win'.. because there are different paths that are still viable.

CC has a lot on it... but doesn't really offer a lot of strategy choices in your progression through the game. It's more of a grinder - just do everything.. when and how doesn't really matter. Your scoring doesn't really change based on other achievements, etc. In this regard.. the game is relatively flat.

WPC titles in general didn't have a lot of complexity in this area... some games suffer more than others in terms of lack of balancing or variation in what they offer. Ideas like score boosting, benefits, etc weren't really common play mechanics. Stacking modes, stacking mb+modes, extending or enhancing multiballs was pretty much the common mechanics at the time. A lot of strategy is more about 'what to avoid/ignore' vs 'what to do together' or 'what to do in what order'

CC also gets knocked on a bit because it's layout and basic mode qualification is essentially the same as it's siblings.. AFM, MM, MB, SS, etc. Contrast that with other titles that offered more geometry variation (Shadow, Congo, etc)

What all this means is.. in CC.. you basically just keep trying to do everything and stay alive. Scores are about success in hitting shots and staying alive.. and less about your strategic choices. That's why it's kind of boring to advanced players. There isn't as much 'payoff' for doing something challenging.

Contrast that with something like the triple MB stack in BSD... getting 30mil Jackpots is an objective that not only is challenging, but has a significant payoff for doing so.

So yes, at the 10ft level.. WPC in general were shallower than rulesets in the last decade.. but there are still ones that stand out more than others in terms of giving at least 2-3 different paths.. or 2-3 key objectives to unlock to make the game less of just 'shoot everything and stay alive'

CC doesn't excel based on it's depth or ruleset. It excelled with some fun mechanisms, unique play (quickdraw), and the good writing WMS/Bally had at the time. CCr builds on this by enhancing that physical game with nice quality.. and hopefully in the future extending that interesting game play.

The good thing about pinball is... they aren't like children

You can go and use other people's to see what you like... and getting one isn't a permanent commitment. As you tire of a game, you can sell it on and get something else. Focus on 'what will bring me entertainment now...' and less about the future. With stable or appreciating prices, owning a game has been a low commitment.

Lawlor still tells the Diamondplate story this way.. that it was really toxic (even at TPF recently).

The truth is probably in the middle somewhere... 'so nasty that people don't want to deal with it' vs 'banned'

Got measurements of these deltas?

Unless your game cabinet is compromised... it will work just fine lifting on the cabinet bottom alone. You can put boards under it when you have games that are a concern.. but this would be the rarity, not the norm.

If you were buying for history and are the type that are proud of your antiques - sure, buy an original. But for pretty much every other angle and aspect buying a CCr is going to be a better choice. The lighting, the display, the improved accents are all better and hard to replicate in an original. And if you doll up the original... or even add extended... why did you chase originality to start with?

Legs are just parts they put in the box. They don’t go on the game when being built. Obviously they have to QC parts they get in from their supplier but they also need to have a test for this kind of condition. This is kind of a new one. But parts QC is part of their responsibility.

No - this seems to just be a recent parts batch issue.

You're way overthinking this. Older games (including the sample games) simply could be using legs from another batch of parts, that predate the bad batch. Considering the problem is recent, it's likely simply the next batch of legs CGC got to keep their inventory flowing was flawed.

The real impact is really for CGC themselves. How many games went out with bad legs, and how much inventory do they have that is impacted, and what is their lead time to get inventory of corrected/non-impacted parts.

You could even have outcomes like CGC switching to a thicker leg plate as an interim solution.. as it maybe faster and cheaper to simply 'work around' the problem then it is to try to ditch all the impacted inventory.

actually their response is basically identical to JJP when their woes first started. "we're looking into it, open a ticket, and we'll work with people on a case by case basis". The issue was where JJP went next... with really bad 'case by case' results

You seem to forget two things

1) that CGC already installs what was the aftermarket accessory for avoiding leg damage - the metal standoffs. The issue here is the leg deformation is exceeding the clearance the metal protectors give.
2) The expectation that this isn't a concern because of #1 and prior knowledge of the games from CGC to-date.

Yes, you can go further... but your assertion that 'this should be seen as the norm' because of what was done years before...doesn't align with CCr - because its not made like games from years ago were.

Williams did not use metal cabinet stand-offs to protect the cabinet from the leg - modern games (including CCr) do.

YES - because the CCr games without bad legs are fine… as are the CGC games before this.

It’s obvious you do not have any hands on experience here with the games

CGC already does better than this - by installing metal cabinet protectors. The oversized plastic protectors create their own problems with decals. That’s why everyone uses the metal stand-off concept now instead. The protectors are great for covering damage - not so great at preventing it… just better than naked legs.

And many require the customer to return the product to the company... at their own expense.
AC - most have parts only warranty, which mean you get to pay someone to come install the part.
Most large consumer items, at best you get a freight company that comes and picks up the product... and is usually something handled by the distributor/retailer - not the manufacturer.

Your examples really don't mean much because you are comparing apples, oranges, and watermelons.

At the end of the day, it's a cosmetic issue. Sucks, but *&% happens when you own games too. I think CGC should just offer people cabinet decals or an offer of CGC credit towards a future purchase for those who can't fix their stuff. Besides pepper's game.. most of this decal damage is so trivially minor.

Sometimes you get a bad draw... its up to you how much energy you want to spend on it. When we get games damaged in shipping, we don't aim for perfection, we aim for balance. For this kind of decal cuts... I'd flatten the decal out, try to minimize it's look, and just fix the leg and hope for some credit for my inconvenience.

Don't worry - people buy less than flawless games.

uhh.. are you sure you understand what a FAQ is?

The FAQ is intended to be the consolidation of the information as currently known for that topic. If you find the FAQ speculative... it's because that's the only information as known to-date..

Really? The stern ones are really flimsy - I can't imagine them being thicker by significant amounts than the mantis metal protectors.

Yeah but that is a lot of pressure in a small area to just use washers like that. I would expect those to eat into the wood over time.

Gotcha - I misread and thought you had it under

could have just been a rubber that was nick'd etc . Sometimes just some parts are bad.

Feedback for you..,

I am not going to watch a series videos about suggested changes that are inconclusive and spend 80% of the video doing step by step routine things. If you spend 5mins explaining how to bend a switch blade i might just explode.

Those are ‘journey’ videos… not tip videos

?? There was no known price before the game reveal… the reveal that included the topper and cgc-extras. Which happened at expo.

Well.. KNOWING WHAT IT COSTS... is kinda a big part of the demand for the game. To simply argue 'you could have gotten on a list' prior is dumb. We all know those lists are non-commital - from both parties. And the very presence of the SE+ is evidence that even CGC didn't think 'anyone who wanted an LE could have gotten one' because they had to rejigger their product offer to appease those who wanted an LE but couldn't get one.

The facts are - when the game actually went on sale, demand ate up supply almost immediately. Anyone who wan't on-deck and waiting that week would have missed out.

Fathom uses PCBs in the backbox.
CCr uses a plastic light tub like the original uses IIRC

whatever... every game you can 'get on a list' if you are good enough with your distributor. And CGC jumped through hoops to make the SE+ because there was a proven demand for people WHO DIDN'T GET AN LE BUT WANTED ONE. So obviously it wasn't as 'anyone who wanted one got one' as you make it to be.

The increase in price between the le with topper and models without is not increasing at the scale the topper complexity is. So it really doesn’t line up with your assertion that margin was the ‘only reason decided to do it’.

They’ve done toppers on all the games since AFM and this topper is the most expensively designed and probably most expensive BOM yet. I think their motivation is different then you assume

Again, if they were so driven by margin... they wouldn't be spending all that money developing the complex toppers they do. And if they were so driven by margin.. they wouldn't have priced the game so modestly.

Listen to CGC Doug talk about their choices and what they chose to invest it.. it's not all accounting driven.

I don't buy that for a moment. If they left out a part and shipped it to you separately it would not reclassify how it was sold, etc. It's warranty.

I think the issue is they are scared about classifying the game as complete so they can actually invoice for the game, then trying to account separately for the topper later.. thus triggering issues. I don't believe at all that the interested parties could not come to an agreement to not pursue a challenge on something that is obviously honest compensation for a manufacturing issue. IOUs are not uncommon these days in other products with the supply chain issues many industries were facing.

And 'logistical issues' - it's simply a matter of getting a list and shipping the same thing to everyone. It's not hard to say "if you can't give me an address, you don't get a game until later" and stick to the guns of simply dealing with the original buyers.

It all still sounds to me like "we don't wanna"

Again.. a 'lower price' only becomes a factor when you buy into the first explanation. I don't find it convincing. These are not adversarial partners involved here. I get they can't make it an 'option' and the consequences about that.. but changing how you ship it doesn't make something an option or accessory. Especially since they already ship toppers as separate pieces to start with - just in the same shipment. I just don't find the excuse convincing.

Most problems sound hard when you focus on the 'why nots' instead of 'how can we'. Between CGC and their distributors they have no problem finding the person to pay for the game.. so I don't buy that it's that much harder to assemble the list of buyers to ship to. If data export is that big of a problem for some distros, exclude them from the program and make them wait for a combined shipment. Those that can meet the requirements.. congrats we will help you and us by getting those games out quicker.

Reality is it would be a huge expense because shipping their topper boxes are expensive, plus weeks of work. This is not easy work when you don't have a lot of staff doing this kind of stuff anyways. It presents a lot of challenges - but isn't undoable. It's just a heck of a lot easier for them to just sit and wait and make the customer 'wait until its perfect' -- just like CGC has always done.

The real push would come if they had other cascading impacts in the factory in terms of delays causing other scheduling or space issues. But that hasn't been much of an issue with them previously... and there doesn't look like anything challenging that now either.

I get it.. you got an explanation from someone on the inside... that doesn't necessarily mean you got the clean story. Spin comes from the inside too....

Reason #1 - Pay in the industry sucks

1) The topper is in a separate box to start with.. so no need to keep games out of their boxes (if the issue is infact just parts in the topper)
2) The amount of space games take up is enormous in volume. Even if CGC were only doing 40 games a week, that is more than one tractor trailer's worth of games a week. To build 500 games would take them 16 tractor trailers. Or over 5100 sq ft of floor space...

Now remember how many LEs they sold.. This does not work well to assemble the games in volume and hold onto them for long periods. That is why people suggested SHIPPING them

CGC builds other products and doesn't actually build Pinball at volume all the time.

Now stopping MID-project like this is a different twist than their usual ramp up and down they do between projects.. but CGC's cadence would be death for a normal full-time pinball company long ago. So they have worked out a model that works for them.

Delays and non-communications are par for the course for CGC - but they've delivered great product, so many are just in the 'have patience' camp.

I gotta believe stalling everything and the cascade of problems that causes is a lot worse than extra labor and shipping cost for toppers.. but Doug@CGC have a different take on it all obviously.

If the stories of having to reject another round of parts is true.. you gotta think eventually their prior plan is strained as their dates slide further and further.

The best solution is to be transparent and convincing. They don’t need to be granular just make a convincing, believable case and update as appropriate.

This is how businesses that respect their customer operate.

The truth is CGC doesn’t because they know they don’t have to. People aren’t going to go anywhere and basically have no alternative.

Last night i had to work through Microsoft having a complete total outage of their platform. Not only do they admit there was a problem, and plan for the cadence of updates, but they admitted they screwed up. The difference is they know customers will hold them accountable if they don’t.

Companies like CGC still think hiding behind the walls is the way to manage communications. It’s absurd and the only way they get away with it is because they are the single source. Of course given how they handle launches too… it’s par for ghe course.

This entire response was unnecessary if you read the part of the conversation that said…

“(if the issue is infact just parts in the topper)”

And it’s also been coming up on a year since they had samples completed. There is lead times… and then there is ‘more to it than lead times’.

After the MBr delays… nothing surprises me with cgc anymore. (Except ccr le’s price )

CGC doesn't do parts sales... they push you off to PPS, etc.

why hasn't anyone just stacked the metal protectors? Seems the most direct approach. Stack to get flat uniform stand-off... and be done with it.

Mine has foam

One was supposed to be in production... the other was a pre-order for a game known not to be in production and was an order for 'the next production run'

"no worse" when you cherry pick an example and ignore the hundreds of other games shipping... This is why you get knocked as defending CGC too much.

Any lay person can identify and empathize with an obvious failure to deliver on time or anywhere near expectations set. Yet you want to spin it as 'normal'. No, it's not normal.

The only thing normal about this is the repeated behavior pattern of CGC. And next time your friend Ryan gets up and boasts about how ready they are when annoucing... everyone should call them out until they actually start shipping inventory. Because this crap is really getting old.

Yeah, but how much you wanna bet Stern starts shipping its new game within weeks of announcing it?

If CCr was announced in Jan 2020... that line would still fly. But reality is CGC launched CCr in Oct 2021... a launch done knowing the landscape and a launch done with production plans in place. Let's not forget the boasting of PFs already made, etc.

Unexpected delays - yes, things happen. But managing your customer expectations properly and doing the right thing is CGC's cross to bear. And this is not a COVID-supply-chain unique sequence of events for CGC.

No - I just speak up to keep things honest and counter the fluffing. Call it tough love if you want, but I'm not going to join in the kum ba yah chorus when people make excuses to justify poor behavior or make up cover. You keep saying this is 'no worse than other manufacturers'... yet others are adapting and getting product out the door and providing forecasts. CGC sits behind the closed doors hiding from the very same audience they were so happy to engage with during the sales cycle... instead leaking stuff to 3rd parties like yourself to be their mouthpiece.

just because CGC eventually shipped games doesn't mean they were 'right all along' and people upset with the situation were wrong.

It just means CGC didn't fail to deliver a game.

Remember that.

If only CGC would change the tune…

Inside CGC hq...

planning loop cgc (resized).png

I mean.. I said this back in January... and now...
Screen Shot 2022-08-12 at 12.36.34 PM.png

already have our SE and waiting on the LE

but thanks for asking!

Approvals can be done with sample games (which already exist). No need to wait for production run games unless they materially changed them to the point the samples are not suitable. At which time, they would have retrofitted a sample game.

So for some perspective. It's going to take them longer to add an extension to this game then it takes other companies to develop an entire game from scratch.

And that's generously based on the timeline where they had a final game ready.. and had already started on the expansion.

Makes me wonder what the timeframe for the next remake will be. Will the CC expansion delay the next remake even that much longer? Or is the expansion a way to monetize resources that would otherwise be idle/waiting for the next project.

No - it's facts. You're going to be more than 15months AFTER the game was launched to your timeline of the soonest availability of the expansion. It's been cited over and over the general timeframe for development of games at Stern is around 1yr. There is no 'opinion' in this.

What? rewriting the OS/etc ARE NOT PART OF THE 15MONTHS BEING REFERENCED HERE. That work was already done by Oct 2021 when they launched the game. I'm talking about the period between Oct 2021 and Jan 2023. The OS and game were not rewritten during that time.

Reality is it will be well over a year between when the sample (completed) games were shown and sales were opened and when the expansion is even considered being available.

You're not connecting all the pieces. The next game won't require as much software to be created as CGC did because as you mentioned, the created a whole new platform. So there is less work to do for the next one vs what they just did. And don't you remember when they included people like Ferret on one of their slides awhile back? And the hardware design for the next game can be on a different timeline then the software.

It really is just a question of if this extra chunk of work is going to come at the expense of 'the next' thing.. and if these long periods and extra project scope are going to stretch out what is already a hugge gap between CGC titles.

What a joke... never been in software dev? My last project where I was the architect was developed across 3 continents, 7 time zones, and is booking 7 figures A MONTH in recurring revenue. How about you? Careful where you stick your neck out.

There're still building game code using a high level language and they better have established a framework for their games. If they haven't... they're idiots and maybe why their value-add feature is taking as long as others use to develop an entire game.

'first true DRM code project for pinball'?? You think adding DRM to the product (where they already control the hardware) now makes this into some moon mission? If the feature were going to take them an extra year just to add DRM to the project, they'd probably should have just gone back to their PIC chip like they used last time.

Fact still remains... year+ of development for an 'expansion' feature.

pretty awesome. Do you have any option to add sound too to match with your movement?

No sharp objects. Like any long piece of any friction fit item, start at one end and work progressively in/out and across. The edges will start much easier than the middle, etc. Check for fitment placement of the whole item before starting.. instead of just lining up an edge.

You can stock pile assemblies but only so much due to space - so any 'head start' would be pretty limited. And while prebuilding more stuff than before would allow them to shift work, it can't change your throughput in other areas. Simple example... if they can only QA 20 games a day, it doesn't matter how many assemblies are on the shelf or how much is in the queue.. they are only going to finish 20 games a day.

Production like this is highly scheduled because of the differences in times each stage may take so you don't get these backups or droughts. Things that take longer you stage ahead (Playfields, cabinets, etc). You don't overproduce what you can't advance to the next stage, etc. So the funnel of parts being on hand, sub-assemblies ready, the throughput of each stage etc is highly orchestrated to keep the line moving steadily. And usually there are stages that are difficult bottlenecks that are hard to scale. It can be as simple as how many loading docks you have and how quickly you can turn trucks around.

CGC has never shown the posture of 'now lets speed up' for temporary anything - Let's just hope for a steady reliable stream of quality games.

maybe it's one of the sample games that was made to support shows/dealers from last year?

Yeah, when CGC has production line inertia problems like Ford or Chevy... and you can actually use things like airstrips to store pinballs... then your comparison might have some relevance. Until then...

These games have great lighting including color coded GI effects. Pinstadiums? Totally not needed.

Your targets are not latching in the up position. Will need a spring adjustment mentioned several times in the thread

Same old tired deflection- the game pricing and details were not available… so pointing at people making commitments before the game is even revealed is not equivalent to ‘lots of availability’

You repeating it doesn’t make it true

So like i said… well before the game was revealed. You’re talking well over a month BEFORE the game was revealed.

This does not make the game generally available for a long time after it was revealed which is cgc #1 fan’s favorite goto.

I mean if it was so readily available there would have been no sales of the SE+ and zero reason to even introduce that. But we know that unmet demand after the game was revealed was the exact reason the Se+ was introduced— UNMET DEMAND

Readily available presale interest lists != readily available inventory ‘for anyone who wanted one’

Then who were the SE+s added for? People who just like paying more?

defenders will jump in "they don't want to be criticized or nitpicked about the photo"

Meanwhile... a year later they are still trying to come up with justifications for 9+months of silence.

I LOL’d

Like this even need to said by them… when it’s only them who have put themselves in that position over and over and over. It’s a bone thrown to make people think ‘oh nos….’ When it really comes off as trying too hard to deflect. Tell Ryan that’s something they should have worked out themselves

Look how fast PPS appears when it’s a topic they want to face…

I call bullshit on that story. Not only is PPS their customer… they are the gatekeeper for all their future remake deals. Do you really believe doug would not even take Rick’s call? No way

Now not give them a date they don’t want to repeat… i can see… or non commital… i can buy. Rick can’t even get a call back?? I don’t buy it

I think they were feeding you a tale