(Topic ID: 166367)

B/W vs newer machines

By Luppin

7 years ago


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    #1 7 years ago

    I only have played few machines produced after 2000. My impression is that the feel of play is inferior to '90 and late '80 B/W machines.

    What do you think?

    #24 7 years ago

    Ok, I understand that, after a couple years revisions, newer Stern have usually good code and deep rules. Personally, I quite like deep rules, but what is for me way more important, way above anything else, is GAMEPLAY and FUN. This is why I also love System 11 machines: simple rules but often great fun. So, if the deep rules help improving the overall experience, thats great. But I am skeptical about deep rules if the gameplay is not fun. For example, I do not like at all long ball time: for me playing pinball means being on my toes all the time, regarding the skills of controlling the ball. If the ball never drains and the rules are very deep, well, then that become something like a strategic board game really, not a proper pinball machine!
    So, under this viewpoint, how do newer Stern machines compare with '90 B/W? Basically, how the balls flow and is gameplay creating adrenaline?

    #46 7 years ago
    Quoted from trunchbull:

    I find the biggest difference is that Stern pins lack the charm and theatricality of B/W pins - they feel flatter and more corporate.

    This is exactly my feeling. Generally I really do not like commercial Hollywood movies, and this is where licenses for pins come from. The true magic comes from unlicensed pins with good overall presentation and good gameplay , and this is why I think overall the best, more charmy and overall balanced pins are certain 80 and 90 B/Ws. Sterns look flatter to me too, they miss that special type of poetry (a mix of art, sounds, feel) that plays a big role in the overall fun factor.

    #82 7 years ago

    Thanks for all inputs. In the end I think my perception was fine. Althouh modern Sterns are refined machines software-wise, I personally choose a pinball machine for its feeling, above all. B/Ws are also fine software-wise anyway, and that classic flipper feeling, better art and overall magic get my preference, no doubt. And those machines are cheaper than Stern. So it's an easy choice. I don't think I would ever pay 8k for a pinball machine, not even for my holy grail. And for sure not for a machine without that special magic feeling.

    #153 7 years ago
    Quoted from Taxman:

    Don't get me wrong. I own some nice Stern games. LOTR, AC/DC, POTC. Heck, LOTR is my favorite (own 2). But the bulk? Well look at my collection list. TZ, SS, MM, TAF, CFTBL, AFM, WH2O, MB, ToM, TOTAN, FT, IJ, T2, WCS, BSD, (probably more). Sorry, but there is no comparison of those 8 years (T2 in 91 to MB in 98) to the twice that 16 years following so far (2001 to 2016).
    Heck, my System-11 games like Diner, Taxi and Earthshaker are more fun and have more feeling then most of the DMD games I listed earlier. Just my opinion of course. But I have put enough time into the hobby to earn an opinion worth listening to. If you only play new games with a closed mind your missing out. The Stern game I have had the most fun on this month was Stars. There is a "Just one more game" pin.

    This is exactly what's happening to me. In this thread I mainly referred to '90 DMD B/Ws machines, but lately I am realizing machines from the second half of the '80 have even more of this magic touch. Basically Im talking about System 11: more simple rules, shorter ball times, but... just perfect! They have everything I like in a pinball machine, including great music - I own Swords of Fury and Space Station, just unbelievable Pinball Music. Also, at the moment I can still grab those '80 machines for low prices, so really.. Why spend 8k for a nib machine when with that money you can get around 5 of those jewels?

    #155 7 years ago
    Quoted from CaptainNeo:

    This is very true for Pinside. They do not see past the DMD or the LED's. But we were the same way back in the day. Back when TAF and TZ came out, we only wanted to play DMD games as well. Through the decades, after you have played every DMD there is extensively. you tend to broaden your horizons and expand into early SS, then EM's and even woodrails. Every generation and every company has something good to offer. Just have to have an open mind to see it.

    Agreed! But pre-1986 games worries me for lack of proper music.. Which is something crucial in a pinball machine in my very personal opinion.. But I hope with more time I will understand... ?

    #160 7 years ago
    Quoted from stoptap:

    I quite like the droning background sounds of games like Centaur and Vector.

    Does it sounds any different in reality compared to online videos? I watched many youtube pinball videos, and the sounds sounded repetitive in those early ss pins to me. I am talking relatively to newcomers to those games. I mean, I understand that for people who played those machines during their youth these sounds can be pleasing: they remember how innovative, fresh and exciting they used to be, plus they remind them their youth. But for somebody who play those pin first time now? I am asking because I have never seen those machines in reality (well, I was a little kid at that time but I really cant remeber).

    #163 7 years ago
    Quoted from stoptap:

    It sounds a lot deeper in real life. It really sets the tone of the game. The drone sound is broken up with other sound effects too.
    If you have never heard a Centaur in the flesh then you are truly missing out.

    nice to "hear" I am a big electronic music fan, so I need to check that out soon! The problem is (I am from Italy) I cannot see many of those machines around..!

    #165 7 years ago

    #168 7 years ago

    I've tried Taxi and like it, but only played few games.

    About CFTBL, although the music is very well executed, I am not into boogie/rock'nrollish type of stuff at all, so really not my cup of tea.

    I can't wait to check more System 11!

    #172 7 years ago

    Swords of Fury is beyond pinball experience!! It's pure magic.

    6 months later
    #176 7 years ago
    Quoted from damadczar:

    OMG yes. Swords of Fury, Space Station, EATPM, Whirlwind, BOP, and Funhouse would round out my early B/W collection if I could. Possibly add Doctor Dude in there as well. Just great games, great fun! That sweet spot from mid-80's to mid-90's is the best.
    I've been playing a lot of the newer Sterns lately and while they are very pretty and I really like the added bonus for music you can get (dials on front, headphone jacks, etc...), they just aren't quite as fun. Except for maybe BM66, that was pretty freaking fun to play.

    Space Station my other favourite System 11, amazing too!

    About new Stern really dont like the art and the feel. Surely good and deep code, but after playing pinball for long enough I think the essence is in the shots and in the feel. Complicated rules may be fun for some times, but once you learned some deep machines, you realize that the essence of pinball is instead feel, art, shots, music, no matter if rules are deep or not. And in this regards 1980/1994 games are way better. Reagrding music, even an early SS can be more inspired than a new machine with stereo hi-fi soundtrack from a shallow tasteless movie. In the end even in a small colletion you want some variety, but I greatly favour feel over rules.
    In this regard I do not favour much also WPC95 machines (especially at those prices): B/W not only started dropping certain quality of materials, but also started using uninspired simplistic art, and giving the end product a more commercial, teenagerish, tasteless feel. Stern then greatly worsened this trend, and now we have those plastic looking, deeply coded, tasteless machines with no soul and no art.

    #178 7 years ago

    I really like TS because it is a very hard game with great shots. It never gets old. You really need excellent skills to do well, all shots are diffucult there. I also set up the software in a way its constantly engaging:

    https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/the-shadow-luppin-rules

    When I talk about great art I refer mainly to early SS machines mainly (Xenon, Farfalla, Centaur.. in a totally different league art-wise compared to later machines - those are real artworks). I favour by far original themes, not a fan really of Hollywood licences. Actually I think that a licence is cheesy itself, excluding some few exceptions. In fact, I do not think TS has good artwork. But if I have to pick licenced themes, I then favour those linked to obscure movies as TS, Congo, also BSD not such a a popular movie (and a great pinball execution).

    In terms of feel, I refer to the B/W feel: the flippers, the build of the machine... I know, maybe we are just used to that, but I love it.

    For the music: again, I love the attitude, not really the quality of the music, stereo, hi-fi, and so on.. Some new machines have tracks taken from a movie in cd quality. So what? I can prefer early SS simple, ethereal, magic, metaphisical sounds.. each linked to a spinner or a target... it's so beautiful when you get used to it (it took some time to me too). Listening to the same fully fledged movie soundtrack it's nice at first, but it can get old. Think the animations on Pin2K: see them three times and then you want to puke when you see them again. Or I also love some stuff in System 11: the glorious Swords of Fury music, legendary! Or Space Station minimalist classy soundtrack: so beautiful and NEVER gets old.

    You see? It's exactly all the oppposite of what new Sterns looks, sounds and feels like. I do not deny that there are beautiful games made recently, for sure! But they just have less fascination on me. But I admit that part of my interest and love in pinball is the link to the memories of 2/3 decadeds ago, so a new machine cant bring that by definition.

    #190 7 years ago

    In the end it is a question of taste: there is good taste and bad taste

    I mean, I think at pinball as an overall multi-sensorial experience, similar in a way to cinema. Enjoying a movie is very much linked to the cultural level of a person. People with lower education enjoy simple, sfx rich, Hollywood movies. Educated people prefer independent movies, without many sfx but with a spirit, a soul. Of course the first group of people perceive the Hollywood movies as full of soul too (sometimes actually also the second group can appreciate those same movies - even with sfx and big budgets it can happen). But I think it's impossible to explain to a person of the first group why a movie from the second group can be so amazing, without bells and whistles, amazing sfx, and so on.. It's a cultural process of development.

    I think that this discussion about the B/W vs. Stern "touch" is not only related to gameplay, but about the overall multisensorial package. A cultured person can understand why a movie with low budget can be much more visually and mentally amusing than a mega budget new Hollywood commercial movie. It's about taste, small subtle elements that bring joy and surprise, etc...

    A pattern looks to me happened in many different fields over the last decades: the artistic quality and "soul" dropped and has been replaced with an ultra technical, cold approach. Lots of quantity produced with the help of software/code, but less space left for the human side of the art.

    Now, I am not saying that the Stern lovers are only people with a lower level of culture: probably its just a group of people that focus mainly on the rules of the game, on scores, on number of features, perfection of the code, complexity of the game.
    B/W lovers tend to focus also on the historical meaning of a machine, on some elements of the art (for older machines), on simplicity (less is more) as a link to a time when the world was simpler and better and more joyful... and many other similar elements. For me it's like that. It's similar to play vinyl/cd vs. mp3. I love holding a vinyl, letting it go all the way without skipping, smelling it, etc.. as opposite as bulimically skip trough thousands of mp3 without really LISTEN to them with the heart.

    Early SS: vinyl '90 B/W: cd
    Stern: mp3 (in the best lossless format )

    Note: what written above does not apply to WPC95 machines! (I see them as in between the two groups)
    Note2: sorry for my english, I am from Italy!

    #192 7 years ago

    Well, I also think a mix is better. But here we are discussing what we prefer among the mix.

    #196 7 years ago
    Quoted from Mfsrc791:

    I think a lot has a lot to do with remembering games when you were a kid. It brings back happy memories and sometimes your brain can add details and emotions to those memories.
    If you grew up in the future and the arcade down the street had a Ghostbusters and you played it all the time when you were a kid than that same game may provide those same happy memories when you are older and the 'new' games mate seem souless

    I think this is partially true. In my case, it may apply to some '90 machines. But I was very small when early SS were around, and never played them. My memories are almost non-existent regarding those machines. But now I love some of them: how beautiful they look and also the simple, but amazing, engaging gameplay. I actually prefer their gameplay over the ultra complicated rules of new machines.

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