Wow!!!!
Lots of opinions both ways!!!!

I'd rather blast through drops then unravel the rules.Its beautiful when the 2 come together.

I love them both. I had at least an hour long session not too long ago with RBION trying to get all of the Ripley letters. I couldn't do it but I was really into it. That game is really fun.

That's one criticism I have of some games new and old. Games that just say shoot the ramp or shoot the scoop or collect the letters are lacking in imagination. Mary Shelley's Frankenstein is a big offender of this.

I think the general message that Hell's cool might not be a preferred theme for kids.

The one thing I do hate about sterns is the cheapness feel of the flippers in comparison to bally / williams, and the hum it makes when you hold the flipper buttons. However I enjoy the gameplay on certain games ( ie Met , Tron . X-men, star trek and twd ). Early SS titles I prefer Ballys over williams as you can tell from my wishlist ( the games i would like and can't afford to have list )

Stern modes definitely feel sort of Data East-y and generic, almost like there's a disconnect between the playfield action and what's happening in the "game" (on the DMD). That's why Addams Family is so appealing, all the parts of the table correspond to a section of the house, which contributes to the exploratory theme. I just don't get that as much with, say, Star Trek, where I feel like I'm hitting shots just because the machine says so.

Nonsense, hell is totally in right now. Hail satan!

They both have their pros and cons and I like them both for similar and different reasons. there is no right or wrong answer. Hey, it's only pinball!

--that feeling ya get when you turn on one of your favorites and its been awhile...and then put up really good game (mileage does vary).
222m on I500 is a good game for me.
"That driver took a wrong turn Paul !"

Have had MET for a month, played Mustang about 4 times, Indy 500 once.
All spare time jammin on Metallikra.
Spread the love Sunday !
Chairs !

I was a Stern hater, but they have put out a consistent run of fun to play games that stand the test of time.

Life is too short to be a hater.

One other aspect that goes a long way for me is reliability. Charm and nostalgia don't amount to much when there are endless problems. I know some guys like fixing pins but I much rather be playing.

I live in Jersey. The kids around here already know what Hell is.

Have you seen Horde on TWD? Classic, tense, and great interaction with the DMD. One of my favourite modes of all time.

I'd like to, and TWD seems to show a lot of promise but man, I've put a lot of quarters into that game and I just can't seem to get anywhere.

I've had games come and go but Met keeps pulling me back in.

Stern makes some really fun games, they just aren't part of my collection. The high cost will keep them that way.

A 272m game on I500. MET is improving my skills (or lack thereof). My best -518m...not even 4th place. Suck it Violent Steve.
This machine has been a tank for the 3 years that I've owned it. Wish I could afford a line of B/W's.
But that MET though...

Oops. Forgot...it was 516 and VS got the mf'n boot.
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Took me over 2 years to put my initials on my own damn machine.

Damn I miss my I500! If your a racing fan that game is a must have!

I grew up literally on track property. So my whole life I heard Tom Carnegie on the PA for the entire month of May. My 1st pin, and the only one I'll never (say never) sell. Saving to restore it.

Something to consider.

At least you can find game specific parts for B/W games even though they are in many cases over 25+ years old. Try finding game specific parts for games made by Stern from 1999-2009. For the most part, they no longer exist, including boards.

Are B/W games better? Maybe. It was a different era. Machines were made to be routed. Few people on location would have gotten to Valinor (LoTR), Portal (Tron), or even Pretzel multiball (TSPP). They may be "sturdier", but they also have a lot of electrical problems that newer Stern games do not have. Rule sets needed to be simpler. I don't understand the need for constant comparison. Stern has made a lot of really good and fun games. I suggest trying them and judge for yourself.

I feel they are too family friendly. I want more adult oriented stuff in the Stern games (nit all of them, but some of them based on R rated stuff like GoT could have been more adult oriented).

Agreed. It's a little confusing when they had TWD which had quite a bit of blood and scary imagery and GOT is a more adult show than TWD.

I prefer B/W but I think all collections should have at least 1-2 Sterns. Big rulesets are great only if the shots are fun and the modes are different. A game that has 18 modes and all it is repeating the same 6 modes 3 times is not really deep. I think a fun and varied 7 game collection consists of 4-5 B/W 2-3 Stern/JJP.

B/W- Pick 4 or 5 from TZ, IJ, MM, Creature, BSD, WH2O, TS, TAF , or AFM

Stern- Pick 2 or 3 from- MET, TWD, LOTR, WOZ/ TH, OR GB

Now it is a pricey collection but a great one.

My choice would be TZ, IJ ,WH2O, BSD, AND LOTR ( I already have these ) I would add METand TWD to get to 7

Outstanding analysis, but I think I would flip the numbers between B/W and Stern just a little bit, as a superb collection must have a very fast, short game like either Tron or IM (in my humble opinion, of course) and have a little more balance. My seven would include 3 or 4 of the following: MET, TWD, LOTR, SM, IM, Tron, etc. Then 2 or 3 of: MB, AFM, MB, WH20, TZ, IJ, etc). That would be followed by 1 of either a JJP, DP, or other manufacturer pin such as: TBL, WOZ, Hobbit, Full Throttle, etc).

As a software developer myself, I have to chime in that I too think it's the software. Games are up against an ever-increasing slope of requirements of complexity/coolness/visual eye candy/take your pick.

Once hardware requirements are in place, the software has to be developed... then the hardware doesn't work as expected/simulated, and the software has to be rewritten. God forbid someone leaves the company in the middle of a game's development cycle (that *never* happens, right?). Software is incredibly hard in even the best of circumstances - and I believe - apologies to the electrical engineers of the site - that software has an even steeper hill to climb because most people 'get' how hard it is to physically make a piece of hardware do something... but they do not 'get' that making software do something similar is almost as difficult, so you have this perception issue. People are way harder on software in terms of expectations.

That said, B/W all the way! (lol)

I like both. Maybe they are a little less willing to take a risk on a game now that sales are a fraction of what they were in the 1990s. That's okay. Modern Stern and other newcomers in the last few years have made some amazing, complex and very enjoyable games.

Look at a WOZ or STLE. Just two examples of very different games, both magnificent in their own way.

You know stern has some top secret wide body shit goin on in that secret room...

This is the David Lee Roth vs. Sammy Hagar of pinball, a discussion that shall never be settled.

They're fun as long as they're 18 or older and show an serial number tag to prove it before you begin?

That's an easy one - DLR

I think Stern have been hampered somewhat by license restrictions and license choice over the years which has somewhat limited the creative juices and the ability to create those manic moments everyone above eludes to. Also if you hear any Garry Stern speech, Stern is foremost a manufacturing company. A company ethos driven by manufacturing rather then creativity probably also limits designers.

For my two cents I have taken a change to my collection lately, keeping two B/W that mean the most to me as collector, AF(wife's favourite) & AFM (mine) selling down my other titles, and just having one new Stern in rotation every year or so. I think this will work best for me, always keeping the collection fresh and best of both worlds.

Also don't dismiss spending 8k on a machine if you can afford 2 x $4000 machines or even 3x $2500 machines you can get more fun and enjoyment out of a single $8000 machine if it is the right one for you. Quantity is not always the same as quality ask anyone collector with multiple machines and there is always 1 or 2 in the lineup that get very little attention.

Funny thing is I felt that way at one time also..... Now I dont have a single BW game in my collection. This coming from a person that is almost 50.

Bally Williams are the classic cars of pinball. All around great. Obviously they can't compare to modern games in certain regards especially in terms of software. But all things considered they are fantastic and the standard of the current pinball era. They are the long term keepers and the games worth "pimping out." Aesthetically they blow newer games out of the water.

With Stern and Jersey Jack there are lots of fun to be had, but at the end of the day they aren't long term keepers. You hit em and quit em. Experience the best of them to the fullest, then sell for something else. Great games to have on a steady rotation to always have something new to play.

Cargument!!!!

Pretty hard to compare pins to cars in this case. 20 years later b/w games are still plentiful and working hard in daily, public use. A much higher percentage than cars I believe, where "classic" examples generally only see the light of day at shows and on Sundays.

The original post talked about the "feel" - agree completely. Although I have pins from other eras (no Sterns currently) - the B/W games flippers, pop bumpers, jets, etc... just feel and sound better than most of the newer machines (perhaps JJP excepted). I have enjoyed Sterns (esp. IM) but there is just something satisfying about the way a B/W operates. Code is another subject.

For the money the new games sell for, we should expect high levels of quality in all areas design, code, sound, art etc. This should be just as good or better than what has come before. I really like how TWD plays, but the lack of custom speech from the cast is unacceptable. Imagine if Stern had given that the STTNG treatment. Could have been one of the best ever.

I think it's more like green vs red as a favorite color choice. Everything based on "feel" and "magic", which is fine and all, but completely subjective and without any substantive debatable content.

Oh boy.

The real classic cars of pinball:

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(I'll (very shortly after) edit in some woodrails for those guys too, although not my personal favorite)

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Here comes the next debate.

I find myself liking games of different eras at different times. Sometimes I am on a 1990's B/W kick, other times it is new sterns or 80's games. All are fun all the time, but my mood and preferences change over the years. Which is great as it keeps me cycling games and looking for another one to swap in/out.

Unless you contact stern. I have had the most obscure parts and stern always still has them. I'm sure you can just as easily contact Williams...

I'm sure if anyone comes to your place to play, they will all just be lined up on that black box that is sitting between canteen and kill pool.

Space in the basement is tight, not wasting any spaces for that

I like pinball. Used to be a B/W guy. Now I like both Stern and B/W. Just never pass up a chance to play pinball, and your good to go. There's "magic" in every machine. You don't have to be committed to B/W. They won't break up with you.

Sure. Because they've been dead for 15 years.

LOL. It's Skill Pool.

Stern modes definitely feel sort of Data East-y and generic, almost like there's a disconnect between the playfield action and what's happening in the "game" (on the DMD). That's why Addams Family is so appealing, all the parts of the table correspond to a section of the house, which contributes to the exploratory theme. I just don't get that as much with, say, Star Trek, where I feel like I'm hitting shots just because the machine says so.

Data Easty fo sho!!!!

I don't care when the game was made or who made it. As long as it kicks my ass and has me coming back afterward, I'm interested.

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