I've been in the "hobby" long enough to understand the reality of buying a NIB machine. It is generally accepted that there is a special set of rules and you are expected to magically know these rules. Pinball manufactures are not held to the same standard of any other product. It's really that simple. The mindset is you are lucky you got to buy one so take what you get. They way new people are treated amazes me. I have never seen a hobby that is so open with the you are not welcome. One on one and if you can get a chat going people are super helpful. I have never met someone in person that wasn't welcoming. That being said this forum is kinda overrun with grumpy old fanboys hostile to anyone new. I will just never buy NIB, this is the only hobby that used is a not only a way better deal, buying used is way less hassle and you get a way more dependable product. If you are new to the hobby never buy NIB, let someone "in the hobby" deal with all that shit. People will buy new get a shit product spend months fighting to get it sorted out, then sell it at a discount only so they can turn around and buy the next new pin and put up with all the shit all over again.

This is all that secret stuff Joe consumer is supposed to just know. If you have never worked in a commercial industry, done purchasing, shipping and receiving you are never going to know any of this. People today expect everything to be a consumer experience driven by capitalisms. They can purchase anything online it arrives in 24 hours and has hassle free return policy with no questions asked. Stern gets away with it because of so many of us are old enough to be from the old days. JJP is already doing direct to consumer from their website. Stern is just clinging to the past as long as they can. Anyone else feel their distributers are some type of hostage Stockholm situation. It just seems like Stern forces them to take on a shit load of repairs and customer complaints and hardly any support. I don't know how you make any money when you have to take so much time and money dealing with all this shit.

It really doesn't. The math and data show this is actually devastating to the original manufacturer. The NIB box sales that turn over into the used market is a massive loss. I often wonder if it's even on Sterns radar. Anecdotally JJP seems to be a little more focuses and it doesn't seem to be hurting them. Stern on the other hand seems to just getting their asses kicked by the used market.

Here is how it works, lets say Joe and Fred are friends. Joe buy a NIB Stern. The experience is ok but he has to tinker with it and has a couple of problems. He gets it sorted out and his buddy Fred is getting interested. A few months go buy and Joe is bored with his NIB Pin and is thinking about selling it and maybe getting something else. He sells it to Fred. Joe may buy another NIB, but he may try a different company or even worse he may realize Fred saved some money and he kinda lost on the deal. Joe decides he is going to buy used. 1 NIB pin sold and you lost double that in revenue. You have 0 customers engaged and you have to try and win them back on the next one.

Take the same scenario but Joe NIB sale is flawless, he is in love and his friend Fred is in love. The nest shiny new pin comes out and Fred tries to get Joe to sell him his old pin. Joe says I can't I love it to much and the next one is going to be awesome you should buy it too. Both Joe and Fred buy another NIB. 1 NIB grew to 3 and you doubled the revenue on the next pin. You have two customers that are engaged and willing to spend.

JJP and some of the others do seem to be focused on being that Jewel in the crown of a collection. That pin that you have to get your own because you not having mine and get on board early for what is next. Stern has a few of them as well but they don't seem focused on it. They just seem to occasionally stumble into one. The other companies are focused on making another run of jewels. Stern drops a pin and everyone knows to just wait a couple weeks and you can grab used one. I'm not saying JJP and the others don't have issues just that they seem to be more focused on a better more successful marketing strategy to combat the revenue lost in the used market.

I think you imaginary data is very close to reality. It's also true the marketing and data analysis guys would see that and be horrified. Stern is doing ok turning over pins to that hard core group of NIB buyers. Anyone can see that group is getting harder and harder to please and it's losing members. Stern is also squeezing that base for all its worth with Toppers and LED add ons. They need to kill that used market and expand the NIB buyers. They got a little boost with covid and some new blood has come in but they are not a healthy expanding company. Even in the case above if Joe buys NIB you still end up with a chain of used buyers behind every NIB. You do not want 4 people passing along a single item of your product. You have to push that number up as much as possible. If one pin goes through several hands it just shows you are only reaching a small portion of the potential market.

Yes I'm not arguing that point. That is not a healthy way to run a business. That is just keeping your head above water. Would it be bad if they started investing in retention. Making it so pins lasted longer in that hard core group. Would it be horrible if the product was more sought after and the used market started to shrink and become part of the NIB market? Would it be a bad thing if more people were expanding the size of the collection and not just out with the old in with the new. I know I have wanted to buy NIB for years. I have a 5 pin collection that I am in a favorable position with finacially. I could convert my line up to 5 NIB instead of zero. Those noobs are are trickling in but I wonder how many stay and how many people go. Is it even debatable the the current NIB experience need improvement?

I'm just a dude same as everyone else, having a conversation on the internet. I have some history and experience in a different industry that shares some parallels. It's generally accepted in every mature business that used sales hurt your bottom line. Feel free to disagree and discuss, I am happy to chat but there is a reason basically every manufacturer on the planet does everything in their power to curb used sales. My silly story of Joe and Fred are just two examples of opposing scenarios. They are not meant to be taken as gospel spoken on high.

It's business manufacturing and selling a new product. It's not so unique that it is the only one that used sales that they have no part of magically increase their profits.

I agree Stern still has the commercial mindset on one side, but they are clearly trying to have their cake and eat it too.

Clearly you guys disagree and that's cool. There is no point to try and turn this into an economics class. All I can say is you have to look past the short term model. You guys are making this assumption that the hard core needs to sell used in order to buy. That is not something I support. I believe there are plenty of consumers and operators (operators not so much with covid) that can continue to buy and expand and not turn over product into the used market. I believe Pinball should be going the way of every other industries and taking trade ins on new product and doing the whole certified product and turning that used market into profits. I understand you guys think that is a bad idea. I do agree Pinball needs to work on that service and warranty a little before they can start selling any kind of certified product. Upping quality so that you can sell your own product multiple times has proven successful in basically every industry.

Really, how many people are trading in at the distributors, the entire model seems to be failing. Just seems like you search for the distributor located with the best tax deal and cheapest price. You deal with issues as much as possible yourself and sell it locally when you move on. This programs work when you have a national programs and no one even knows anything about a distributor. That is a whole other topic of conversation though.

Yeah I don't disagree with you on that one. I do think it would be a lot better and more people would do it if Stern backed it with a national program. If you could go to there website and search for all the used certified pins that you got some warranty and it all just got directed to the Trent and Zacks of the world behind the scenes. That way everybody wins. Right now the Trents and Zachs sure seem to be holding the back on a lot of NIB issues.