Also JJP no different. My hobbit came with glass broken and many other issues. JJP said no warranty for the game anymore. It was shipped directly from them to me. They said deal with the shipping company as not their responsibility. I did and shipping company said not covered. Jjp only covered for complete loss according to shipper. Jjp needed to buy extra insurance. Luckily Hemisphere who I bought through was awesome. They had their own insurance policy which not everyone has. We claimed it. I got a new game quickly. Hemisphere was incredible to deal with.

I will second that on Hemispheres. I have Bought 3 NIB from Kurt at Hemispheres in the last year and he always does great job!

Why? This is exactly as I was pointing out. There is no reason a guy who wants to enjoy playing pinball in his own home should have "to learn the ropes" first. Yes, stuff like opening the glass is basic, but for some it's too intimidating. Guess what? Make friends and have an open wallet for a local tech. Some people are just not technical or have enough confidence to jump into one of these machines. If they have the means, they have the will, NIB should be no problem for ANYONE. Quite frankly, he should buy 3 or 4 machines. Hire a tech to maintain them once a month. If one or two goes down, well there are two more to play.

How many own cars and will not even check their own oil or tires? Should they not be allowed to buy new cars?

I’ve bought at least 5 NIB games from Jason. He is great and highly recommend. Laid back guy but if something isn’t right he will help make it right.

I agree, some people want to learn to work on machines, other people just want to play pinball.

The mistake that the OP made was trying to go cheap and find the least expensive distributor. He should have gone through a more local guy who could help him with problems and service - even if it cost more.

The support/dealer network for pinball machines is not like the network for cars. Of course, the OP may not have realized that before purchasing.

WOW ! Another blame the OP because he didn't get a fully working game .

This is the ONLY thing we could possibly blame on the O.P. is he should have stayed local? However, if the local guy is charging $7K for a NIB pro when everyone else is $5899 can anyone...really... blame him? Well, yes they could, this IS Pinside, you can get blamed for anything!

My favorite LOCAL distributor that I buy from is Great American Pinball. His service is impeccable and makes sure his clients are happy and their machines work as they should. I can also 100% vouch for Kurt @hemispheres, great guy that will do what it takes for customer service. At the same time, you have a clan here on Pinside that want to tear these guys down because of retail pricing.

I like a good deal just like the next guy. I can shop out, repair, rebuild and take care of pinball machines when I buy a project or 2nd hand. However, when I get a NIB, my expectations are that thing had better be right. Only issue I have had on 5 NIB's is a blemished playfield on a KISS Pro. At that time I called Chas(RIP) at Stern and told him I was on my down with my playfield assembly, please pull one off of the line for me. He paused for a few seconds, gave me the long okaaaaay, and then said yeah, sure c'mon down. I can do that. The OP obviously couldn't, wouldn't and has no desire to. Good for him! I wish I had that kind of expendable budget.

Its not that people should be pinball pros... but they should have done some basic research and own their actions.

Stern is a manufacturer - they do not do direct sales (as the op knows). The retailer is who provides support. So obviously if support and care are important to you, shop that.

Pinballs are commercial vending equipment. Your expectations of retail consumer experience for returns and hand holding do not apply. If you want someone who will provide that kind of end-user hand holding.... shop for that. Do not assume every seller provides a retail experience.

Also, don’t crap on someone for charging more for a retail experience and then cry the wholesaler you chose to buy from didn’t give you a full retail experience.

This pattern is as old as time... people buying from wholesalers or drop ship distributors and then cry about horrible treatment because they did’t get a full retail experience.

If you want service, hand holding, and consumer services.... STOP BUYING FROM COMMERCIAL DISTRIBUTION and buy from a retailer.

But does he have any more pull than any other distributor if you get a defective playfield?

This is all that secret stuff Joe consumer is supposed to just know. If you have never worked in a commercial industry, done purchasing, shipping and receiving you are never going to know any of this. People today expect everything to be a consumer experience driven by capitalisms. They can purchase anything online it arrives in 24 hours and has hassle free return policy with no questions asked. Stern gets away with it because of so many of us are old enough to be from the old days. JJP is already doing direct to consumer from their website. Stern is just clinging to the past as long as they can. Anyone else feel their distributers are some type of hostage Stockholm situation. It just seems like Stern forces them to take on a shit load of repairs and customer complaints and hardly any support. I don't know how you make any money when you have to take so much time and money dealing with all this shit.

I'm with you, if we adhered to some of the comments in here such as "they should be aware of and prepared ahead of time etc." we would never have any new people join the pinball ranks and the industry would die out! I'm not saying just jump in willy nilly but damn I don't find fault with someone expecting to get a fully operational machine NIB considering what they pay for one. Pinball ownership is something you have to experience and learn on the job so to speak or that's how it was for me, I own and love system80 pins which most avoid due to their conception they are extremely hard to work on and it's where I started.

I agree with this sentiment, it shouldn't require the equivalent of a secret handshake and decoder ring in order for someone to be able to dive into pinball ownership; the arrogance and cliquey nature of this place toward new folks can be overwhelming at times and is certainly doing no favors for pinball as a whole! Everyone seems to say that they want to see pinball "healthy" and ever-expanding, yet many continue to treat the hobby as some sort of elitist "secret club" that can only be joined once one has been properly "hazed"!

I have been around here long enough to have seen this movie before: Someone unfamiliar with the ins and outs of the pinball industry sees the glossy ads (or one of the news articles about the "resurgence" of pinball), decides to pull the trigger, takes for granted that they will receive a product in perfect condition which is backed by solid customer service (the norm for any other $7k nonessential luxury good/toy), are then sorely disappointed (like the OP) when their new toy arrives with issues they aren't prepared to deal with, and then experience the final blow when they admit defeat, come here for help and comradery, and are subsequently met with responses of condescension and derision!

Some of you chose to dive in by buying an old game and getting your hands dirty on day 1. Others (like myself) chose to buy NIB first, with the idea that by starting fresh with a fully functional non-worn game, one can "ease" him/herself into maintenance and repair issues in a more controlled, organized manner without immediately getting overwhelmed. Both approaches are 100% legitimate in my mind; we don't all learn via the same methods or at the same pace, and it would be good for some folks to bear this in mind!

This I can agree with.

What do you think the current percentage of home buyers vs. operators of NIB pinball machines these days? The reason I ask is the above thought is the Gary Stern way of thinking circa 2005.

I am not sure a newbie is going to know the difference at this point.

Most NIB pinball machines being sold are not commercial vending equipment. Sure, that's where the industry originated decades ago, but today, a majority of the sales are for home use. The fact that Stern (and others) are thriving when COVID shut down coin-op is proof of this.

Even with a good distributor, the process for getting parts and repairs in a timely fashion sucks (particularly for non-hobbyists). It's a shame Stern hasn't modernized and beefed up their support staff and infrastructure. Getting parts is still hit or miss...

Do you have better data on this subject. I mean, is it just 2020 where home sales were the majority, or has it been happening for years?

Of course you’re right. But pinball isn’t like that unfortunately. So yeah, want into pinball? Gotta learn the ropes or you’re risking a bad time. I would think dropping 6k on something brand new to you would give someone some sort of pause and look to research it a bit. If they did, they would find out pretty easily these things need work. New or old.

Doesn’t matter that people are putting them in homes. That is still how stern builds, tests, certifies, services, and the model used for their sales distribution.

You can make an argument that sterns’s distribution model is outdated... but i think its more that stern hasn’t managed the distributor role well enough. There should be two tier distribution for retail buyers or distributors who actually have the services to support the customers. But the market has let distributors sell at wholesale to direct consumers. Stern hasn’t regulated nor structured the discounts to allow the two tier model to really be successful.

Stern pinballs are still built and distributed like other commercial vending equipment.

If you walk into the plumbing supply store you are going to have different experiences vs shopping at home depot. When the customers ignore that and just try to chase price over everything else and bury their head to everything else. Well... that is on them.

I’m sorry... did the distribution channel change when i wasn’t looking? Or how stern builds, tests, supports, and certifies their kit? It doesn’t matter than there are more home buyers now... its still commercial vending equipment and that is how stern is structured.

Totally agree... and I don’t really understand why distributors tough it out. This is where stern has gotten lazy and cheap after they were last man standing. From documentation, training, parts, service... its a joke.

Pins aren't cars. Cars will be around for a long time. Everyone needs them. Nobody needs pins, nor will they be a commodity for years and years to come. It's an esoteric hobby.

Look, the point I was trying to make is this: the fella didn't even let us TRY to help him. What are we supposed to do with that?

Even if he knew how to repair pinball : why should he, straight off the shelf. It’s the principal of the matter. Why should he have to ask ppl here ? BS. He didn’t get what he paid for, simple. These things should be 100% in every facet when set up for the first time in our homes. Having said all that ; we are lucky pinball didn’t die in 2000 and I’m sure Stern would like to have fault free game off the shelf and are probably slowly working towards that goal.

You’re absolutely right. These things should be 100% from jump. But they aren’t. Never have been, never will be. Point is a little research before diving in would’ve made this known to them very easily.

It's been happening for years. I don't work for Stern, so I don't have hard data. We (the home use community) saved Stern's arse...big time. You'd think they would want to reward us with a better warranty and support!

You are making my point...Stern's entire process hasn't changed much over the past 2 decades that I've been a customer. Customers have shifted dramatically over the past 2 decades, but not Stern. The only reason they get away with it is there is little competition.

Actually, just the opposite. Stern cares much more about cranking them out than "fault free". I've been a NIB customer since 2004 (LOTR & TSPP). I can say from experience over 2 decades that Stern's quality has steadily declined over the years. I still have my LOTR...the quality is stunning...has had more plays than my entire collection combined x10 and still looks better than some of my newer games. One switch replaced in 16 years.

Could it be that both viewpoints are correct?

1) Stern should produce a product free from defects. Yes, no doubt that is the case. In fact, every product, regardless of the cost of the product, should be free from defects. This is reflected in myriad consumer laws, some strong, some not, that are designed to guarantee aspects of this (like lemon laws, merchantability, safety regs, etc,)

and

2) People should do research on a product before they purchase it. Heck, seems like most people look on Amazon to see what $10 USB drive to buy. When you are talking $7500, you should do lots of research and that research would have quickly revealed that a pinball machine will likely require some degree of setup and maintenance.

Would you??? Someone new comes on ask one question or tells a short story of his "first" experience and he gets flamed right out of the box......fabulous how do you do from such a welcoming community..................make anyone feel warm and welcome right.

Glad someone took the blinders off

Stern churns out a lot of crap these days. I can attest to that.
The older machines that you reference are exceedingly well built in comparison.

You are spot on. It’s amazing how much Stern just doesn’t give a crap about quality these days despite prices being 2-3x the price of the high quality games built 15 years ago. The price increases are bad enough but to not at least match quality from years back is a slap in the face to customers.

This ^ 100%.
BUT as long as they keep selling, Stern just laughs their way to the bank.

I think everyone on here knows that all pins new or used need to be maintained, tweaked, etc. BUT - anything you buy should work as its supposed to. Do any of you tolerate fixing your own TV, stereo system, or fridge. Ummm.. no. The expectation is that it will work.. as it should. I guess we just accept that pinball games are less than perfect and we just learn how to fix and take care of them. Sad that we accept this as normal for our hobby. The OP does need to learn dine basics or be prepared to pay a tech or find a different hobby. And its not just Stern.. its all manufacturers.

Strange, EVERY Lotr I have come across has needed the fork switches at the VUKs replaced many times. They were simply crap switches during that run. Putting Cherry brand switches in instead of the factory Orion brand has been the only way to permanently fix them being flakey.

Yes, but just because you find a wholesaler of electrical parts intended for commercial construction that is willing to sell to you as an individual ... that doesn’t mean you get to dictate to the manufacturer that they need to change and meet YOUR terms. And its still commercial kit...

Yes Sterns distribution and support model is fubar... mainly in that the model can’t work as intended given the effort stern puts in. But it is still commercial vending kit.

Don’t let gary see this thread... next game will remove all coin door stuff in a heart beat and make it an “vending kit” upgrade.

Ive replaced mine once in 16 years. YMMV

And I replaced several on mine; whoop de doo . Still better built and will likely be running years longer than Spike 1 games...

What issues did you have with the afm remake?

So? As I said, one bad switch in 16 years and your LOTR's all needed the same VUK switch replaced.

My LOTR has between 10-20k plays and the PF looks better than new games with 500 plays. I won't bore you with photos, since it's not that important...

If you think the newer games are higher quality, there's really nothing I can say to convince you otherwise.

This is very true I have owned a few LOTR (maybe 5?) and that game is near bulletproof.

I think one had a magnet issue, replaced the fuse and that was it.

There was even a roached out beat to death one that was on location locally that still played decent even though it looked like it had zero service over the years.

I do find it amusing that this is the usual Stern bashing thread cause my JJP pins to date have been far more of a pain in the ass

They are all PITA's, but Stern has proven they could do better (but don't). JJP had "quality" as one of their reasons for birthing the company, but they've had their challenges...no doubt! Even though the first month of DILE ownership was a PITA, it has been good to me ever since (for ~3 years now).

yah for sure, just didnt want this to be another Stern sucks thread.

Wonka is a fantastic game but there are all kinds of known issues and poor design (Gobstopper kickout which is f-ed up in about every single game out of the box) in that one.

JJP IMO you are better off buying used and letting someone else get it together or you will be tinkering for hours or days.

I have had very little issues with NIB Sterns but rarely buy NIB anyways.

the pinball industry needs a service corp.
Ever bought a new heat pump for your house? It's expensive. and hard to transport, and install on you own. And sometimes it doesnt work right away, and needs to be adjusted. Same thing.
Who installs and maintains it for you?

If pinball ever grows up, it will be because of a service corp that can make enough money installing and servicing machines. Until then, buyer beware, and no complaints please.

When Stern launches SternU and certifies different levels of pinball technicians...Apprentice, Skilled, Master....well then just shoot me.

but pinball machines are not appliances. They are like boats, which need constant attention for optimal enjoyment. They are a steel storm in a wood box! How can we expect 100% perfection with a hand-made product?

Don't know about LOTR but TSSP was released the same year and has the same issue with the VUKs

It's hard to blame someone for getting an itchy trigger finger. At the very least the dealer should of inferred and warned the buyer that pinballs are finicky by nature.

As far as prices, if you compare LOTR at 3800 at release (right?). Thats 5345 today with inflation, add in other increased cost by the manufacture like LCD stuff, higher licensing costs, higher cost of wood....etc. and you pretty much have pro level pricing.
As far as stern pumping out crap, has anyone played the stuff from early 2000's? Not saying its bad, but it's night and day.

Difference is they sell a higher version on the regular now, and they are aimed at the home market.
I'm just going off the stern website, but a dealer is supposed to cater to the home market and all that entails. A distributor is supposed to deal with location operators and FEC's. Guessing "distributors" don't want to deal with the stuff, most locations wouldn't care as much about (like a scratch on the glass). If you sell as a "dealer" you should understand home buyers are probably going to be more demanding. I know JJ from GEX is listed as both, maybe he has more insight on the difference.

Start off with everyone doing their job properly and end with proper Q.C., That's how.

I'd expect my boat to work too. I'm pretty sure most electronics are "handmade". Regardless, if you sell a product it should work when you get it. There's a very distinct difference between not working when purchased and having to maintain it to keep it working correctly.

Very little research would have made this known to the buyer as well.

True, but to what extent. Maybe the buyer raised concerns, and the dealer/distributor reassured the guy. I'm assuming there is blame to go around.
The new buyer will know better, but it doesn't do anything to fix the issue for next person.

Zero blame. Research would’ve revealed the risks. It is up to the buyer to assess the risks and decide if they want to proceed knowing what the risks are.

I agree.
My first NiB is Heavy Metal

I know it is a risk,
But it will have very low production numbers.

My LE is only 300 max.
I found the low total number and near impossibility of a vault edition compelling.
Built on a solid top ten pin helps...

Being a whole lot easier than 7 modes to get to wizard mode could make it a game I can finish.