There may be a little of that, but this is Pinside . That said, actions do have consequences... that shouldn't sound ominous, but it does. It simply means that if a business owner treats someone wrong and cops a tude publicly, it's going to negatively affect his bottom line.

There is a way the seller could clean this up and it would be a public apology to the buyer (along with the money for the board)--and I think most people would give the guy a thumbs up and be willing to forgive.

Hope that doesn't sound angry to you... and I'm not sure why getting irritated at people "who have no stake" seems to be so much fun for a few. We all have a stake and should be informed when bad business people try to pull a fast one on a pinball customer.

I understand, and appreciate the reply.

I guess my question is in response is that no one should treat anyone rudely, without an apology.

Boy, if that ever worked with me at home with the wife!

But its not even, because if a Pinsider is rude to a business, its acceptable. (Not the op, or the case here, per se).

I guess its more the "Ill never buy from them" anger.

Sure, we all wont buy from Jpop, or Mad, but I only hope the anger here is at the stroke of a keyboard.

One mistake, like bad playfields not fixed, and we might all boycott a manufacturer, and they are gone!
Its honestly something talked about among vendors.

But more than just a thread or Pinball, I watched the news tonight, and a lot of Anger towards
3 countries, with talks of war.
It bother me, and I worry about this anger growing and spilling over......maybe its me.

Ive said my peace.

Very valid point.

We agree, though, that giving a seller a pass on a deal like this shouldn't happen. It's tough not rocking the boat in such a small hobby.

Never a pass....!! Maybe this South Park, Yelp episode relates

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x39t5a8

Wow. I have just read through this entire thread and can't believe the responses/actions from TC.
From calling someone a liar and saying the damage happened at an accelerated rate to saying the OP swapped out boards and the fact it is now public are good enough reasons for this company to not do the right thing.

Talk about a great way to go about ruining the reputation of your late brothers company and well and truly self destroying the relationships/trust of many customers and future customers.
I wont ever buy anything from TC even if this issue is sorted out.

If he does not pay you after saying he would......... You can bet he fkd himself here. I did not realize Allen passed away either " sorry to hear " but in all honesty it has no bearing in this matter.

And at a 3200 dollar price point for an unshopped JD........ Rob should come the fk over and install it for you.

And it looks like it was shipped with Michelle from STI...obviously their service includes basic packing and removal.

I agree Gnatty. If you really want to have fun..Treasure Clove's infamous polish kit is just a mix of standard 3m buffing\polishing compounds.

-3m Hand Glaze + (very slightly cut with.. ) 3m Finesse (not II..the original) #1 ~ mix rational 20 (honestly..this stuff is terrible)
-3m Finesse (again..the original) cut VERY slightly with 3m Hand Glaze = #2 ~ mix rational 20
-3m Finesse (original) cut about half with 3m Super Duty = #3 ~ mix rational 3:2

Polishing pads here for about $15...there are some othe optional at HF too
http://www.harborfreight.com/3-in-mini-polishing-and-buffing-kit-with-14-in-shank-4-pc-69335.html

Being someone that worked in the auto industry as a painter for many years it was very obvious what their mixes were. The way the 3m products smell..cake up and splatter is kinda unique to their stuff. But I still purchased my replacements from them because I supported TC and the aftermarket pinball industry in general.

Maybe I'l start my own line of polishes

I think Art makes a lot of great points. Anything goes wrong these days and there's a mass online gathering of people venting their anger at someone they do not know about a story that they only have read part of. I'm not sure why everyone is so emotionally involved in everything these days.

I dealt with Allen several times and met Ray once when I picked up a game. Allen always had the game setup and ready to play in his garage and we would play test for a few minutes, shoot the shit, and then load up the game. All 3 games I purchased were high end restores and while they may not be up to HEP standards these days they are extremely nice games that would be considered high end restores by anyone.

It sounds like Allen and Ray got this game from a customer/friend and intended to do a minor restore/shop out on it but after Allen passed Ray had a customer that wanted it so he just did some testing on it, felt like it played good and sold it as is. What we do not know is if the client thought this was a restored game or if it was even listed as such by Ray. You have to remember he just lost his brother and may not done the best test job on it. We also do not know if Ray saw the acid damage and replaced the batteries or if he never even knew about it.

Something that I have seen posted several times in this thread are avoid retailers like this. Did you guys even know Allen? He did not have a store and mostly worked out of a small little garage on his nice but modest house. He was not printing money with pinball restores, decals, or polishing kits. Not an easy way to make a living, hoping that this game you spent 2 months on brings in enough money to pay the bills. Does that make screwing a customer OK, of course not. Ray should just fix the issue and move on. But you guys act like they are supplying terrorist with nuclear weapons or something.

While I agree that people tend to get "butthurt" these days about anything, Ray did try to smear the OP's reputation. To me that crosses the line as he got personal. I have a hard time defending TC for these actions and just dismissing this as "mob mentality".

All TC has to do is admit their wrong doing, pay for the board, and apologize. Ray just lost his brother and is probably under a fair amount of stress. I get it.

We are all human, but the OP didn't deserve the shelling he got.

I agree that this is likely, but it's not relevant.
1) It was ridiculously overpriced for a non-restored game.
2) TC was negligent whether accidentally or intentional.
3) TC has so far failed to pay for the new board and potential connector damage.
4) TC publicly called the customer a liar, which was easily refuted via matching the serial number.

It's never too late to own up to your mistake but why would a future customer choose TC over any other option now?

TC does not deserve future business from anyone IMO.

Having no skin in this business venture I have not commented up to this point; however, I see multiple references to Ray having lost his brother and so here I am. I can and do sympathize with Ray as I'm sure all of do having lost loved ones of our own but, it is also my understanding that this occurred a year ago. I know we all grieve deeply and differently but, with the time that has passed I find it hard to use this as an excuse for Ray's actions. It was stated that the machine was purchased by both Ray and Allen which means the pin was in Rays hands for far more than adequate time to have been gone through and any problems corrected. Just my thoughts and as I said I have nothing in this, nor do I know either Ray or his late brother (may he rest in peace) but, my hopes are this will be addressed and put to rest. Personally judging from Ray's post and his obvious reflex comments when his brother has been mentioned, more progress might be gained by leaving all reference to Allen out of any future posts as really Allen no involvement here and can only foster more anger by being brought in.

Allen passed very recently - I believe within the past 2 months.

I purchased several restored games from Allen in the past - they were beautiful. I never knew that Ray and Allen worked together

The anger and hate would have been nominal if Ray from Treasure Cove came on here and said "We made a terrible error, this one somehow slipped through. I would like to send the OP a replacement board as soon as possible. We are sorry."

This thread would be closed, Treasure Cove retains & possibly GAINS credibility, and there would be no lynch mob.

However, Ray made his bed and deserves every bit of anger and backlash coming his way. He ruined his own reputation with is own actions and words.

Correct: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/allen-shope-treasurecove-sad-news

Amazing how someone mentions "year ago" with no proof and everyone runs with it. No dog in this fight, and not excusing TC's behavior after the fact, but I can see where immediate distractions dealing with a relative's passing and potentially handling his estate plus the business issues with a partner dying could cause oversights that don't normally happen. We're all human.

EDIT: ^ agree....it's easy to see how the error happened. The anger is about how it was handled after the fact.

If the funding source was a credit card, you would see a credit on the credit card. If you have online access for your card, be sure to check that. Or, call the number on the back and check it by phone.

I apologize if I interpreted this wrong, I had no idea his passing was within the last couple of months.

As always a well thought out post that looks at all details calmly and thoughtfully. It's refreshing to see nowadays. Oldpinguy for President 2020!

We need Oldpinguy to smear some of his signature love all over the Skit B and Popaduik threads!

Sounds like Ray should start a new business. How about ring toss at the local traveling carnival?

BartCarney (resized).jpg

Gimme three rings

That will be $35 please.

I think PayPal refunds can take a day or two to show up, but I could be mistaken.

Maybe Treasure Cove can post or send the OP a screenshot showing the refund issued?

Direct paypal to paypal will show up instantly. However, if the buyer used an outside funding source, it may take a few days to show up there.

Sorry Art, but I stongly disagree with your post.

It seems to me that you are completely downplaying what happened here. This was not a "mistake" or something that was "less than perfection" as you put it.

Surely you can see that?

This looks like clear fraudulent intent to me, and something that certainly is not worthy of defending as someone just "being human" or something that was "less than perfection."

Art, we *all* have a stake in this!

I don't see that. If I read it right the OP found leaking batteries and changed them himself.

If that's correct it's negligent but not fraudulent.

Negligent = "I was busy and didn't go over the game 100%."

Fraudulent = "The game is 100%."

WOW!! Unbelievable...reading some of these forum members comments here, like asshole Terrapin99 made bashing my brother years ago!

This Matt Dodge guy creates 2 threads, one yesterday and one a week ago... its Buyer Beware..and its Treasure cove is now the biggest piece of shit scammer that has ever lived, with all these f--’ comments before I even know whats going on??

He bought a JD with eagle topper, non-broken ramps, new rubbers, LEDs, new Pursuit Ramp covers etc etc for $3K...not a minty fresh clearcoated restoration.. as if I charged him 2K too much or something? The game worked for me and Dodge said it worked when he got it.. so WTF. And now, its we have scammed him for $3K and he didn’t get what he was promised? Gimme a break..read further? I would like to know where these forum guys buy and sell JDs for 1500-2500?
I questioned his intentions because he owns other games, and we have had guys trying to pull a fast one swapping boards or parts from different games, trying to get a refund from us. So I am the asshole for not questioning his intentions>

I know it doesn’t matter but the other facts are, ..believe it or not I didnt see the corrosion(I don’t care if you believe me or not)!! Not to mention, I probably wasn’t working on 100% shortly after my brother passed in DEC...but not of some members concern here I see..right! Kick my ass. and my bad... for not inspecting every single inch of 1 game for a customer that I may have made $200 on..

I am not making excuses for not seeing the corrosion, but he lied to me from the get go texting me 2 times late Tuesday night with a phone text(wanna see it) that he somehow.. has been “emailing me” personally for a week..NOT.. when in fact I find he was posting on another forum topic he started, without FIRST allowing us the benefit to correct a problem first with a simple phone call to avoid all this ?? I had no idea what he was even texting me about Tues night and it looked really sounded strange when I read it the next morning?

Yeah I know, according to him he has desperately tried to contact us because he got scammed for $3K and we didn’t help him?? Wed morn he then sends this email, with some small corroded pic of a board, telling me that he has just up and bought a new board from someone a week ago and expects me to pay him for it? Yeah right, w/o the pleasure of me seeing the paid invoice or a chance to replace it from stock we have?? Excuse me, but it sounded like some kind of Customer Scam BS! And I bet not one member here would just fire off a refund immediately, seeing “Just One” small close up ..(not the serial number pics) of board corrosion w/o talking to him. What happened to using a phone when he saw the corrosion? Also when he first got the game from NAVL he called me 2 times with a threats claiming I didn’t send him the topper.? I told him twice the topper was packed and tied down under the playfield. So to me his intentions are very bad..because he cant call me FIRST for some damn reason and thats why I called him a liar about the corrosion?

Why didn’t Mr Matt Dodge also see the corrosion either on the hi res pics I sent before he bought it I have no idea, or am I the only one needing glasses? He didn’t ask the first question about boards so I “assumed” (excuse me) he wasn’t a newbie and knew what he was buying, especially since he also owns other games? Had I seen the corrosion when it was in the shop First I would have fixed it or replaced it beforehand with the many other MPU boards I have. The game worked for me here and Dodge said it worked when he got it. If Marco sold you a bad board, do you think they will just automatically reimburse you for another one you just up and buy elsewhere, so gimme a fucking break.

This kind of topics and comments made are exactly the reason why my brother and many other have quit posting offering restoration tips, help and tricks here, because some of the Forum members that constantly post hate here are just “game players” and not sellers or game restorers. They enjoy making assinine comments without knowing the facts!! And the sad fact is they don’t care either because its no sweat off their ass.

However thankfully.. most of the members on here contribute to the hobby with their expertise and knowledge to help others..

Yes, he found leaking batteries, but also a damaged board due to the corrosion.

Negligence by the seller is missing that fact. Fraudulence by the seller is saying that that wasn't there when I sent it to you and maybe you switched the boards. Of course this is all after stating the game was 100%.

RIGHT! Just apologize to the guy and send the refund you promised. All good!

Jesus TC...they don't make a shovel big enough for you to dig your way out of China at this point. It's 100% clear you hosed this guy and you refuse to properly apologize. Wake up before your business goes to crap.

Yeah and now i see Matt Dodge has posted here 3 times since last night he didnt get his precious refund yet ..again we are the scammers!! FYI, Matt Paypal money had to be moved around last night from another account and will be paid shortly after lunch..Trust Me...Thanks for your patience! Do me a favor Matt, and post here your invoice for the MPU board you bought last week and the supplier so we can see your problem has been taken care of.

I agree with this.

It's clear you're not cutout to be the face of a company and I assume that's why most of us knew of your brother and not you. You seem to be very temperamental and not very even keeled. That's never a good mix. If you intend on carrying on the treasure cove brand, your best bet is to stop with the teenage rant posts, learn to moderate your temperament and make right your mistakes; including the JD one. You are doing irreparable damage to your brand.

So, did you buy a new board already? You stated you had and wanted to be reimbursed for the purchase.

"Precious refund" ?

I retract my earlier statement of waking up before your business goes to crap. Too late.

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/for-sale-judge-dredd-8
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/for-sale-judge-dredd-7
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/for-sale-judge-dredd-6
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/fs-judge-dredd-wtopper-and-deadworld-mod
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/for-sale-judge-dredd-3

Take your pick

Looks like you will need a bigger shovel. The hole you are digging gets deeper and deeper. You may want to revisit some training on business acumen.

Yeah he told me in the email and everyone here he already bought a new board?? So now he didnt a week ago?? Thats why I didnt offer to send him one from my stock?? I really want to see his invoice...

Will be paid???? You came on here last night and claimed you already sent a refund!

You are a liar, period. Everything you come on here and claim can be considered complete bullshit.

Keep digging....

Yeah your right, etc etc..

Wow.. the first truthful thing you've posted in here. Congrats! We knew you could do it.

No worries about disagreeing!

I am not downplaying anything though, I completely agree with everyone, including your position.

Im only commenting on the intensity of the negativity, not the case perspective.

In short, my view simply put would be this.

This transaction and thread would make me cautious or hesitate to purchase.
Im kinda partial to the "Never" and cripple a company because of this one issue.
I simply believe that this position, is reserved for Jpop, Mad, serious repeat offenders.

If all it took was an apology, and its back to normal, than by the same token, as we are all observers, we should accept people make mistakes.

Losing a business, threatening a business for a person been treated badly is fine enough.
This is of course personal, and I have to respect everyones view.
But Ill bet you if more and more people say, Ill never do business with a company because
of 1 or 2 errors, my opinion is that its too severe, and social media fans the flames and more
people feel obligated to jump on the bandwagon.

Im passing no judgement in this instance, just reflecting here. Hatred grows so fast, compared
to understanding, and positive views.

I stick my neck out because of having been on too many business sides, trying to please everyone and being 100%. Because 99% or 98% could cripple a business, but be good enough to be CEO, an All star, or President!

My concern as a Historian, is what does it take to get mass negativity?
Think of all the previous wars that look stupid in hindsight, and we have a new social attitude
of fear and hate, and I am only bringing this up to hope it doesnt creep into the hobby we love and share. I know, I know, its too much for a pin thread, and yes I do want Kumbaya, its a by product of knowing what has happened in the past, and seeing the "markers" creeping up in the world today. I simply like you all, care about all of us, and had a perspective.

Im really fine if you disagree.

TC whether you did it on purpose or not, you need to stop talking online. What could have been extremely simple fix is turning out bad. You are doing irreparable damage to yourself. Log off, go chill out for a couple days and come back and try again.

I guess you didnt or cant read that Paypal money had to be moved around first?? Why dont you just pay him for me since it concerns you so much smart ass !! Duh1

Actually you are.. you're making tons of excuses for selling a broken machine..

Fact is you sold a broken machine as 100% working, called the buyer a liar and are now making every excuse in the book. "I didn't see the corrosion in person!" "He should have seen it in the pics!" "The game was already cheap so why should he expect it to be working??" "Buyer is trying to scam me!"

Nasty business attitude there Ray

Well, I picked up a nice Judge Dredd two years ago for $900 in Indiana. The only issues were a weak right flipper, metals ramps flaps need to replace, and slight damage to the cabinet art. Of course the prices have risen in the last two years, just like everything else. However, when you sit there, and charge over $3000 for a Judge Dredd and imply there's nothing wrong with it, that's on you.