(Topic ID: 100181)

In Stock! Custom Buttons & Housings (Early Bally, Gottlieb, Stern, Chicago Coin)


By Zitt

5 years ago



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  • 147 posts
  • 36 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 9 days ago by mappy_mouse
  • Topic is favorited by 27 Pinsiders

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There are 147 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 3.
#1 5 years ago

Anyone know if anyone has a patent / copyright on the older style buttons used as the following part numbers?

•Bally C-905 button
•Bally C-904 housing
•Gottlieb C-13900 bushing
•Gottlieb B-16680 button
•Stern / Chicago Coin Machine 4B-200 button
•Stern / Chicago Coin Machine 4B-199 housing

I'm working on a mod where I'd like to get the buttons made in Clear instead of the typical Red and Green.
detail[1].jpg Photo courtesy of: http://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/C-905RT

I think I could easily create my own injection mold at Techshop.ws and inject it with some clear plastic to accomplish my goals. I wouldn't later want to get a C&D letter from the copyright owner if I decided to sell those buttons in the kit.

-----
Now instock at Pinball-Mods.com - so for opening weekend; I'm putting them on special at 10% of list price.

C904 Housings for $1.78 each.
C905 Buttons for $1.87 each.

After Sunday; they go up to their normal price of $1.98 / 2.08 respectively each.

#2 5 years ago

Those sure look older than 20 years.

#3 5 years ago

Good point; hadn't considered any patent might have expired by now.
Going to do some playing in CAD.

#4 5 years ago

I doubt there is any IP right associated with pinball start buttons.

12
#5 5 years ago

We are quickly coming up to the date where all the Williams pinball patents will be expired.

#6 5 years ago

It would be great to get these old style flipper buttons in different colors as well.

#7 5 years ago

Wow, John...if anyone can do this....I would imagine youd do so with perfection!

#8 5 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

We are quickly coming up to the date where all the Williams pinball patents will be expired.

Thank god, I can finally build a custom pin and claim it has Multi-Ball!

#9 5 years ago
Quoted from Frax:

Thank god, I can finally build a custom pin and claim it has Multi-Ball!

That, unfortunately, may be trademarked or copyrighted which is a completely different case than a patent expiring. Sounds, words, and pics have very different rules compared to physical parts and methods.

#10 5 years ago
Quoted from T-800:

That, unfortunately, may be trademarked or copyrighted which is a completely different case than a patent expiring. Sounds, words, and pics have very different rules compared to physical parts and methods.

FOILED AGAIN!

#11 5 years ago

I'm also in the market for a set of '79/80 Bally SS flipper buttons!

#12 5 years ago

Steve Young "Might" be able or willing to tell you if that is an "off the shelf" part from Foremost Plastics. If they still have the mold, and they own it (as opposed to Gottlieb or B/W) then they can re-run you the part (min. run 1000).

If Steve has ever re-run the part, or wanted to and didn't want to pay for the min. run, he might be willing to go in on it with you for part of the run in various colors. They used to charge $50 for each color change as long as it used the same mold and was run at the same time. Therefore, you can combine the minimums (250 + 250 + 250 + 250).

More than likely, if the part appeared in multiple brands of games, then it was a generic off the shelf part that Foremost owned/created.

The problem with Foremost is somehow getting them to dig for or locate the mold if they still have it. If it is at Foremost, BAA or Marco may also be willing to go in with you if there is any need for the standard buttons and colors (no idea how many Gottlieb/Premier may have still had in stock when assets transfered to Gottlieb Devel. LLC).

#13 5 years ago
Quoted from T-800:

That, unfortunately, may be trademarked or copyrighted which is a completely different case than a patent expiring. Sounds, words, and pics have very different rules compared to physical parts and methods.

http://www.lawmart.com/forms/difference.htm

Generic parts (like the button) or mechanisms are typically patented, not copyrighted or trademarked. However, once the patent runs out, anybody can make generics. Parts with artwork on them (plastics, backglasses, playfields, etc) retain copyright protection because of the artwork that is on them. Parts with specific color schemes and/or logos typically carry trademark protection because of the logos and/or recognizable color schemes (e.g., flippers with the Williams "W" logo, or flippers with the Gottlieb name stamped on them).

[edit]: In short:

Patents protect inventions, objects, or mechanisms that can be manufactured. They also can protect a process or method that results in something being produced. The patent holder has exclusive rights to produce the said items until the patent expires (however, there are exceptions if an inventor refines/updates an invention and applies for a new patent for it)

Copyright protects creative or published works, like artwork, written works, books, articles, music, drawings, paintings, sound effects, voice recordings, etc.

Trademarks protect the use of a company's name, logo, or any recognizable attributes which makes them unique or identifiable.

Post edited by ForceFlow: added summary of differences

#14 5 years ago
Quoted from ForceFlow:

http://www.lawmart.com/forms/difference.htm
Generic parts (like the button) or mechanisms are typically patented, not copyrighted or trademarked. However, once the patent runs out, anybody can make generics. Parts with artwork on them (plastics, backglasses, playfields, etc) retain copyright protection because of the artwork that is on them. Parts with specific color schemes and/or logos typically carry trademark protection because of the logos and/or recognizable color schemes (e.g., flippers with the Williams "W" logo, or flippers with the Gottlieb name stamped on them).
[edit]: In short:
Patents protect inventions, objects, or mechanisms that can be manufactured. They also can protect a process or method that results in something being produced. The patent holder has exclusive rights to produce the said items until the patent expires (however, there are exceptions if an inventor refines/updates an invention and applies for a new patent for it)
Copyright protects creative or published works, like artwork, written works, books, articles, music, drawings, paintings, sound effects, voice recordings, etc.
Trademarks protect the use of a company's name, logo, or any recognizable attributes which makes them unique or identifiable.
Post edited by ForceFlow: added summary of differences

And...the button contains no art and is merely a functional mechanical part that has been around much longer than any patent could be active.

#15 5 years ago

I've completed my 3D Model of the button and it looks pretty damn neat.
Is there any interest in the model? If so; maybe I can upload the STL somewhere.

Would anyone be interested in a Shapeway's upload?
Hell; In theory - you could have these printed in Gold or Silver it you wanted to...

#16 5 years ago
Quoted from Zitt:

Is there any interest in the model? If so; maybe I can upload the STL somewhere.

Maybe upload it to Shapeways so people can get it printed if they want to.

#17 5 years ago

Uploaded to Shapeways:
https://www.shapeways.com/model/2486693/early-pinball-button-c905.html
Lots of colors to choose from. Some of the materials aren't printable due to wall thickness. I'll look at debugging it.
Prices start at 8.59 of one button. Silver can be printed for $122.91.

Here's my cad renderings:
C905.png
C905b.png

I still need to print my own copy of the files... just to make sure they print ok at Techshop... so please if you decide to beta test a material; keep that in mind!

#18 5 years ago

nice work Zitt, if you need a test print on a Replicator I can help you out to look for any failures but would not sell, share and don't need them for myself - would be just to help you.

keep in mind I have noticed a 0.2mm variance between what I have designed and what Shapeways prints so keep that in mind.

imaterialise is also another option for coloured and clear resin printed ones

#19 5 years ago

Nice work.
2014 is cool.
We can design and sell our own plastic shapes?
-mof

#20 5 years ago

Fixed the wall thickness issue with some of the material. The bottom ring's wall thickness was too small / didn't match the original. As a result; more material was needed - so the minimum prices went up to 9.63.

Quoted from swinks:

nice work Zitt, if you need a test print on a Replicator I can help you out to look for any failures but would not sell, share and don't need them for myself - would be just to help you.
keep in mind I have noticed a 0.2mm variance between what I have designed and what Shapeways prints so keep that in mind.
imaterialise is also another option for coloured and clear resin printed ones

Good info thanks. is it +/-0.2mm or does it go one way?

I can print at Techshop; but am willing to take the help if you have the time. IT's about a 40minute drive for me to access their printer.

#21 5 years ago

the size varies but is fairly consistent with pla printing, with holes it tends to go larger in diameter and shafts tends to go narrower

no worries with the print, I can print this weekend for you and report back, send some photos and even give a few critical dimension if that helps

cheers

#22 5 years ago

One of you Pinsiders... convinced me that the Housing would be a good idea too; so:
C904.png
C904b.png

The test toolpath shows some anomalies... so need to figure that out before I upload to shapways.

#23 5 years ago

what issues are you having? might be able to help….

here is that other site
http://i.materialise.com/materials

#24 5 years ago

Fixed the issues with the CAD file. Button Housings #c904 are up on Shapeways:
http://shpws.me/vyCo

Again; these haven't been printed yet... so understand there may be issues. I'll update the thread when my print test is complete.

625x465_2490701_4456120_1408172684.jpg

#25 5 years ago
Quoted from swinks:

what issues are you having? might be able to help….
here is that other site
http://i.materialise.com/materials

There were some wall width issues inherited from the original unit. I also had a couple of dangling cylinders where the bevels were. All fixed now.

#26 5 years ago

test printed the button and based on visual only it printed well so the stl file is fine with no issues, and I am printing a housing now to do the test fit. I lit up the button as I printed in transparent blue.

P1070233.jpg
#27 5 years ago

Nice work Zitt.

#28 5 years ago
Quoted from swinks:

test printed the button and based on visual only it printed well so the stl file is fine with no issues, and I am printing a housing now to do the test fit. I lit up the button as I printed in transparent blue.

P1070233.jpg 102 KB

That looks badass!

#30 5 years ago

Not to bad considering these are my 2nd and third attempts at 3D cad.
Made some minor adjustments to the housing. Hopefully Swinks can print it again to see if it fits better.
I kinda feel like I should order a pair from shapeways just to see how it works. Gonna think about it some more.

imaterialise is too damn expensive. I think the button was like $40 to print in clear resin. For $40; I could buy the aluminum I need to make an injection mold.

#31 5 years ago

I will do a reprint tonight my time and will report back on fit.

#33 5 years ago

print is done and the 2 parts now slide together nicely

#34 5 years ago

Thanks swinks. I'm going to recommend people still not buy the parts of shapeways until I can order and receive mine to verify they work well as a pair. If you don't mind the risk; go ahead.

If you see a shapeways material I don't have for sale; let me know.

Does anyone have access or a spare/trashed
White Dual Button Bushing #21018
which is listed as "No Longer Available" on PBR's website: http://pbresource.com/buttons.html ?
Thinking I could duplicate it and provide a model of shapeways as well.

#35 5 years ago

Additional photos: http://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/B-21018

Looks like the only difference between the two bushings is that the one leg is chopped off on the dual bushing.

#36 5 years ago

Ah so; they are still available.
Does anyone have any idea how many games used the two button config?

#37 5 years ago

Haunted House uses them. Not sure about what others do.

#38 5 years ago

Pretty sure Black hole did not use the second flipper button. IIRC

#39 5 years ago
Quoted from Zitt:

Pretty sure Black hole did not use the second flipper button. IIRC

Correct, one button per side on Black Hole.

#40 5 years ago

Tonight I played around with Shapeways some more; and it became apparent that each part gets a ~$5 handling charge. So to order two buttons and two housings would have been $20 in extra handling fees (buried in the cost of the part). I decided I needed to batch the buttons and the housings together in one file with a stringer so they can be printed as one part - knocking the price down to two $5 charges (a $10 savings).

625x465_2523093_4733736_1408514065[1].jpg
http://shpws.me/vBJM

625x465_2523159_4732634_1408513608[1].jpg
http://shpws.me/vBJO

Would people be ordering the housing in different colors from the buttons?
For ST:MU; I'm going with transparent buttons and metallic plastic housings... but I assume most people would match the buttons and the housings.

#41 5 years ago

I'm looking for original Bally red for both.

#42 5 years ago

I thought about doing a yellow button and orange housing for Skateball - but thanks for trying to get it as cheap as possible.

#43 5 years ago

Order a linked set of yellow buttons, and a linked set of orange housing. You need two sides.

#44 5 years ago

System 80/80A Gottlieb's that used the two button configuration were Haunted House, Volcano, Spirit, Rocky & Devil's Dare.

Steve

Quoted from Zitt:

Ah so; they are still available.
Does anyone have any idea how many games used the two button config?

#45 5 years ago
Quoted from aobrien5:

I'm looking for original Bally red for both.

Why? Can't you get Red stock these days?
Yes:
http://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/C-905R
I'm not saying I won't make red avaialbe; but I don't see the logic of custom colors when that color already exists (at a cheaper price).

Quoted from blownfuse:

System 80/80A Gottlieb's that used the two button configuration were Haunted House, Volcano, Spirit, Rocky & Devil's Dare.

So; not a lot of machines did.
If someone can get me the measurements of where the cut is on the dual housing; I can make a #21018 fairly easily.

#46 5 years ago
Quoted from Zitt:

Why? Can't you get Red stock these days?
Yes:

sigh...Because I was told they were NLA, and I believed them.

Thank you.

#47 5 years ago

My Shapeway's store should be open for you guys to purchase these buttons. Swinks has graciously tested the stl files that shapeways received and they appear to fit together properly. You can visit the store at:

http://www.shapeways.com/shops/Pinball-Mods

You can buy in single button / housing configurations or in pairs allowing you to configure the colors as you want.
At the moment; I have 13 color and/or materials available:

Blue nylon
Purple Nylon
Pink Nylon
Yellow Nylon
Green Nylon
Orange Nylon
Matte Black Nylon
Smooth Black
Polished Metallic Plastic
Grey Nylon /w metallic sparkle
Translucent clear
Matte Translucent clear
Matte Frosted Translucent Clear

I do not offer White or Red buttons in the store as they come much cheaper from PBR or Marco (see above).
I understand the prices are high; it's what Shapeways' charges for the material. I guess it's the cost of customization.

I have Matte Frosted buttons and Polished Metallic housings on the way to the house for final checkout and pictures. Expected arrival is the first week of Sept.

Given the Shapeways prices; I wouldn't blame you guys for holding off purchase until you see pictures of the actual Shapeways product.

#48 5 years ago

Tonight I used the marco pictures to guesstimate the cut-off length on #B-21018; picture seemed to indicate the cutoff is 0.143inches from the wall to the end of the cut-off. Using this measurement; I modified the CAD files to generate the multi-button housing necessary for machines such as Haunted House. I have uploaded them to the Shapeways store. I'll be unable to verify these files as I do not have a multi-button machine in my collection.

I put single, dual, and quad configurations in the store to minimize the ~$5 handling charges. I included red in this batch because AFAIK; they only made the cutoff bushings in White.

B-21018 cutoff bushing
http://shpws.me/vKuV

B-21018 cutoff bushing: Dual
http://shpws.me/vKvy

B-21018 cutoff bushing: Quad
http://shpws.me/vKvF

#49 5 years ago

Confirmed today that the button STL file is correct and fits nicely in an existing housing. I printed a single button in black ABS:
14863598297_7f13805e0f[1].jpg

It fit perfectly into the housing after removing the support material.
I then put it into a Acetone vapor bath to smooth the button out ... but left it in the vapor too long and the crisp ledges reflowed a bit:
15049784792_1848df05a9[1].jpg
But it's nice a shiny.

Here's the reflowed button in a dirty/used white housing I had:
15050126605_b81bc09bc2[1].jpg

Looking forward to getting my shapeways pieces next week.

1 week later
#50 5 years ago

I got my shapeways order in ... the buttons are correct and work interchangeably with the old housings and vice-versa. I'll post some pictures I took ... hopefully tomorrow.

I did notice that buttons match the old opaque red buttons exactly; and just realized the transparent red ones I got from PBR have a slightly longer center "hub" which actuates the switch.

As a result; I think I'm going to make a new version with a longer plunger to match the transparent red one. The longer hub makes it work better in the mirror universe with the Nacelle LED PCB:
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/fs-custom-bally-flipper-button-mod

So; if you want an exact match to the stock buttons and housings;
They are off of "beta testing" by my standards. Order them. Enjoy them.

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