(Topic ID: 62965)

Bumper sells Jacks Prototype Game Not Owned By Them

By Ballypinball

10 years ago


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  • Latest reply 10 years ago by chad123
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#26 10 years ago

Original Bumper obatins prototype game from JJP, but doesn't own it (that email does not in any way say that any part of the 50k was going towards paying to own the prototype).

Original Bumper is sold to new owners.

Original Bumper dissolves and transfers "something" to New Bumper.

New Bumper obtains WOZ prototype game. Plans to ship it back to JJP.

New Bumper realizes JJP doesn't want to do business with them any longer, decides to sell WOZ prototype for quick cash before it can be picked up for return to manufacturer.

New Bumper says it's legally entitled to do so.

Now, the $9,000 question is, whether they actually were actually legally entitied to do this. Unless Old Bumper's records show clear proof that they paid JJP specifically for that game (which is highly unlikely as all other prototypes are owned by Jack), then they did not legally own it, which means it was not theirs to transfer to New Bumper. And, unless New Bumper shows clear proof that they paid fair market value to Old Bumper for the machine (whether or not they were entitled to do this), they did not "own" it either. I wonder if in light of this news, Old Bumper's creditors could demand repayment of fair market value (ie. the full selling price) for the machine from New Bumper.

#38 10 years ago
Quoted from Noodlebox:

Yes that pathway would fail. Obviously that is not the right way to update the machine.

You do realize who you're talking to there, right?

#48 10 years ago
Quoted from Noodlebox:

Your maths is not right. A portion of the 250k income is profit. Don't forget about $200k +/- to collect from part paid machines.

Not that I know the real numbers... but just as an example:

79 * $6000 = $474,000 wholesale cost - $150,000 paid to JJP = $324,000 outstanding wholesale debt.

79 * $8500 avg = $671,500 retail - $150,000 paid to JJP - $200,000 unpaid = $321,500 of customer's money still gone missing. Until you deliver a product, you do not own the profit.

Quoted from Noodlebox:

No we owned it alright. Jack sold it in exchange for Bumper's agreement to make $50,000 advance payment over and above what had been agreed in the terms of trade.

If the email quoted above is the supposed proof of this (and it must be, because you posted it to convince us of this), then... well, good luck.

#80 10 years ago
Quoted from Noodlebox:

We have no buyers with the name of LJ. You would need to give your full name and LE allocated number. Even then, the answer is till the same. You paid your money to a company that is now in liquidation and the liquidator is your source of information about your funds.

Quoted from Noodlebox:

Ok, are you saying you were here when I wrote the receipt? You underestimate the machine's appeal even as a prototype.

Quoted from LJ:

Finally...so you are part of the company that took my money..as you stated

Quoted from Noodlebox:

I thought I just said we had no buyers with the name LJ? Can't be clearer than that.

Quoted from Noodlebox:

For myself, I have spoken to the liquidator a few times when answering incoming calls made to other people. I'll repeat here exactly what I said to him at the time = Good morning/afternoon Bumper Amusements, Jamie speaking....X is/is not in the building now, let me hand you over to him/can I take a message?"

So, I guess we're all done with the pretext of Noodlebox pretending he's merely a curious outside party. Like he claimed here a month ago:

Quoted from Noodlebox:

I have already disclosed my position. I am not a salaried employee of old or new Bumper. The fact that I can reason and clarify various statements seems to make me different to many members here and therefore a target. Go ahead.

Quoted from Noodlebox:

I jump on the forum to find some stuff and see a thread related to business in Australia and find many people getting upset or speculating about stuff that is plain incorrect. So I post some messages to help clear the air and have to repeat myself a few times for some people. And I had to start somewhere so of course I have not built a wider history, although there are many other threads I have visited without posting, but you wouldn't know that.
And you think it important to count my messages and topics of interest??? What are ya, the internet police?

Would you care to explain this one from 2 weeks ago?

Quoted from phantomflip:

5 questions for you
Is your real name Jamie who works at bumper?
Why have you still been accepting WOZ deposits to unsuspecting buyers knowing you cant deliver?
Were you employed to help Rob get his VISA?
Why was the new Bumper showroom at 127 Whiteman St closed today?
Do you shop at target?
Bonus question
Where has my money gone thief?

Quoted from Noodlebox:

No.
I can't if I don't work there.
No.
No idea, I don't work there and don't pass there for commute. Go talk to them, ducky.
Sorry, poor taste.
Bonus reply - post reported to moderators. Be polite.
My question - how come you only formulated this identity to post this one message.

Oh, and how about these very helpful ones. I'm sure they're just as truthful and weren't meant to mislead in ANY way. Mmm-hm.

Quoted from Noodlebox:

Bumper say they have taken over the WOZ agreements of the old Bumper. That should include liabilities, cash and various obligations and agreements otherwise why do it?

The new company should have no relationship with or obligations to other non-WOZ creditors that are still resting with the old Bumper.

Quoted from Noodlebox:

What would end this debate would be if those who post false, malicious and patently untrue statements were held to account. I have tried to assist people to understand the process of this liquidation, and my statements agree with what has been published by the business owner and available for download from government websites. Yet the same inaccuracies are published again and again, by those who compete with and wish harm on a competitor. Nobody minds competition, except those who are spreading the mistruths.

Why don't you ask Wayne Gee I Lost Bally Pinball why he has gone to the effort of finding and publishing information and half truths in a way that that can only upset people who worry about their investment in WOZ.

Their funds are held by a new company, not the old company or the liquidator. They have had communication from Bumper about this, and none of them are in this forum saying how worried they are. Yet Wayne aka "pinto" continues to lie about this process. And he is lying. He's been in business for a while and should know how company shutdowns work, that a business can continue to trade after it is sold to another company.

Yet he continues to encourage others to do his dirty work. That some believe this nonsense rather than published fact is a wonder of the internet.

Hence the need for moderators to edit out libellous statements and close the accounts of those who show such malicious behaviour.

Quoted from Noodlebox:

Personally, if I was a WOZ buyer I would prefer that the balance of my money was still held in Australia, rather than sent to an overseas start up business that could not get a a bank loan in a capital intensive industry in a country still in recession. At least you can walk into Bumper any day and know where your money rests.

Quoted from Noodlebox:

Despite the issues and representations made by Bumper in good faith as given to them by Jack, and since broken by Jack on many occasions, the customers are better off with their funds held in Australia - and held not by Wayne's mate Del.
...
As it has turned out, it is good news for WOZ clients that Bumper have held the line and held Jack to whatever arrangement he made earlier.

Quoted from Noodlebox:

Garymartin were you referring to Del Reiss pocketing the JJ money? Yes that happened, and he was successfully sued to return it to Bumper's recent owners, who then sold the project and cash to today's owner.

Can you figure out what the only real proof is, something that will silence all the conspiracy theorists?

JJ makes pinballs and gets paid the balance owing by Bumper as each is completed. Eventually JJ makes all the machines and ships them as he promised to do so long ago, JJ gets paid all the funds.

All funds are then found to have been held on account and paid out as originally agreed with JJP.
So all these allegations and your accusations of stealing are baseless, as JJ is getting paid one machine at a time. There's your proof.

Bumper today are not saying oops got no cash, they are paying JJ as he ships machines.
Former Bumper have no cash or interest in WOZ, as per the administrator's alleged comments earlier in this thread.

Del Reiss no longer has it, the courts took it off him.

Based on the above, if we take the exact opposite of what Noodlebox says... that would seem to be closer to the truth.

#147 10 years ago
Quoted from Noodlebox:

Pinchroma, go back and read the email between Jack and Rob, showing Jack's agreement to ship the game when $50,000 was paid him.

I'm re-quoting the text of this email for convenience (not that we have any proof that it's accurate to what was said).

Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 00:07:56 -0400
From: Jersey Jack Pinball <[email protected]>
To: Robert Farrell <XXXXXXXXX>

Hi Rob.....OK

One date change, we are at a show until 10/16 so we can airfreight the first game to you leaving on 10/17

If you write any update, please pass it by me so I'm on the same page. Thanks.

Best Regards,

Jack Guarnieri

(732) 433-4333

On Sep 16, 2012, at 10:37 PM, Robert Farrell <robert@XXXXXXXXXXXX> wrote:
Hi Jack-

talked with the guys this morning and we are all agreed on the plan that we outlined.
1. You get one machine ready for air ship Oct 15th-we will pay to ship it and process you 50k payment on its arrival.
2. Nov 1 you advise how many machines will be ready for 11/13 container we process payment for all those machines then.
3. 11/13 games loaded and moving we process another 50k payment to you.
4. Final date for remaining machines to be shipped. We make full payment for all remaining machines 1/2 way point from shipping. (example if its a month away we pay two weeks)
5. I will organize an update message to guests with your add on words.
6. Video of you and XXXXXXXX with machine for guests to see (XXXXXXX will love that as well as the guests).

I think this will work great and achieve all our objectives.

XXXXXX and myself will be coming to IAAPA and possible make a swing visit to Jersey prior or after (whichever works for you) I would love to see the operations as I always enjoy watching the process of new gear coming to Life.

Kind regards,

Here's the problem: it's meaningless. An emails from mid-September talking about sumething to happen mid-October that only ended up arriving early December. A hell of a lot would've happened in that timespan. Any "sale" would have an invoice or an official accounting of machines sent/owed, not a vaguely worded email that doesn't actually contain verbage supporting what you claims it says and could thus be ripped to shreds by any pre-law student.

From Bumper, early December 2012:

After a long wait, a PROTOTYPE WOZ has arrived at Bumper.

Note ; this is not the complete full version machine, production units with full code are yet to be completed.We pushed to have something on display and have something to show our customers.

It is not on the showroom floor yet and can be viewed/played by customers that have committed to buy.

The machine is a work of art,pictures do not do this machine justice, the quality of the build is amazing.

"Prototypes" aren't meant to be sold to customers, especially when they haven't even passed safety certifications. If you hadn't lost hundreds of thousands of dollars of your customers' money and thus blown the JJP distributorship, you and everyone else here knows that prototype would've gone back to Jack to be replaced with a final production machine.

#155 10 years ago
Quoted from DutchTommy:

well prototype halfasses or not atleast he has an game which everybody should have as they paid for it..

Except as far as I understand it, the prototype did not go to someone who lost money and was owed a machine. It sold for $9000 to a NEW customer with NEW money which, if anything, makes it even worse.

#217 10 years ago
Quoted from Hellfire:

It is unfortunate but people need to realize this can happen when they pay months even a year or so before the game even goes into production. look how many people were upset they didnt get their metallica le after prepaying distributors.
Sitting here interogating and ripping on some ex distributor isnt going to solve anything allegedly scammed people should get together and file class action suit if not well this isnt worth wasting any more time on is it? this is simply a butthurt thread obviously.

Yeah, this is CLEARLY the customer's fault! Shame on them for having the nerve to complain about someone stealing hundreds of thousands of their dollars, and then getting lied to over and over again on this very site by someone associated with those thieves. What a bunch of whiney butthurt crybabies!

#288 10 years ago
Quoted from Hellfire:

Sorry i dont automaticly join in throwing stones at everyone who is accused of something by other people esp people with motives obviously.

When someone comes into Pinside with the sole purpose of defending a company while claiming to be an unrelated but knowledgeable outside party, and then they get caught not only lying about practically everything they claimed was going on, but it turns out they actually work at the company and are the very person they point-blank denied being... that absolutely destroys any credibility or goodwill that person and the company he was doing damage control for ever had. People like that no longer deserve the benefit of the doubt, because if you give it to them they'll walk all over you.

#293 10 years ago
Quoted from Hellfire:

Dont preorder customers have to register there details? JJP could contact the buyers and try to sort it out and at least try to fill some of the orders. or perhaps refund The $150k to the 79 customers until things can get sorted it would at least save face on their part.

You see, this is where your lack of knowledge on the subject is a problem. No, Bumper's preorder customers did not have to register with JJP. They are Bumper's customers, not JJP's. For almost a year Jack has been making efforts to get in touch with Bumper's customers, but judging by how few are on Pinside and how few ever showed up on the WOZ owners' forum, this hasn't been an easy task.

Sometime after Bumper's bankruptcy and loss of the JJP distributorship, they said in a public email that they finally gave Jack the complete list and accounting of money, but at the same time someone else said he never received it. I honestly do not know where that stands at this point.

But even if Jack had the list, the 150k is only maybe a quarter of the total money paid (and don't forget the cost of 5 games has been taken out of that, which means there's only $120k left, and another rumor is no one has yet paid shipping and duty on the new games sent). Since you can't give a 100% refund, how do you divvy it up to make everyone 100% happy? You can't, and it's not even Jack's right to do so, so you have to wait for the courts to decide what's done with it.

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