At some point in one of these threads, I expect Bumper to be accused of being the one on the grassy knoll.

here is a little something to break the tension.

Holy crap! Bumper 1,2 and 3? Sounds like these guys got a pretty good scam going on. If i were you folks (those who put money down for WOZ), id band together and get yourselves a lawyer to represent your group and go get your damn money. Somehow this must be possible in the paper trail left behind.

Perhaps this has been covered, I really didn't have time to sort through all the threads and posts about Bumper et al, but it is a known fact that Bumper 1, 2, 3 or whatever version it was did pay JJP a sum of money. What did JJP ship to Bumper for the money paid?

I'm saying that new bumper advertised the fact that they had taken over the financial obligation for the WOZ payments as part of the sale when they were saying everything is going great (even though at this point the money was already apparently missing). You also indicated that this was the case when you were pretending you weren't actually in the employment of the new Bumper. I personally wouldn't buy a debt so it may have something to do with who at Bumper was ultimately responsible for the missing money as to why Bumper 3 ended up with the financial obligation. And the liquidator confirmed that Bumper 2 did not hold the financial obligation after the news that Bumper 3 was not going to be the distributor for JJP anymore.

Andy, you are correct and noodle said that the new bumper got the cash for WOZ. I quoted it somewhere when noodle said new bumper is out and has nothing to do with WOZ and the cash is gone.

Bumper 1, 2 or 3
Bumper action, Bumper amusements, or Bumper Auctions , in the minds of potential customers, it will not matter
The name Bumper has now been trashed, no matter what spin JamieNoodles puts out

wow, what a mess.....

So from what I have gathered here, Noodlebox and his company were complicit in the theft of a bunch of peoples money and are trying to justify the theft by pointing out other peoples questionable business practices?

So if I work for Best Buy and get an employee discount on the new XBOX ($350 with my discount) and I tell my friend that if he gives me $400 I will buy one for him, then if Microsoft delays the release past the expected launch date, I can just keep my friend's money? Yeah, makes sense to me. Oh wait, but I put a pre-order deposit of $100 on the new XBOX so really I only stole $300. That makes it O.K. right? I mean the real culprit is Bill Gates who still has the $100 deposit. Why can't people see that.

Oh, and then I wasn't happy with just stealing the $300 from my friend, I want to get the $100 back from Bill so I can steal that as well. Now Bill might have caught wind of my theft and does not want to give back my friends money to me knowing that it will only compound the theft. Yeah, the nerve of Bill for not giving me back my friend's money that I have no right to.

This crap should be dealt with in court not by a bunch of beer drinking pinheads. Sounds like a f'ing mess though and I feel for the guys/gals that are out of any money and have to deal with this headache.

Yeah I think you nailed it.

Bill then sold your friends xbox to me which means you can blame Bill for everything...er twice. hopefully your friend will pursue-Bill (and not me) for his missing xbox and money even though you stole the dough in the first place (the fictional you just to be clear).

You couldn't make this sh*t up in real life eh

Bumper have massive balls.

Bumper sent deposits for 79 machines, not full payment for 25. Why would Jack send machines when only deposits were paid on an order.

Next to nothing.

* Jack was offered $50k to ship a container load, putting JJP $10,000 ahead and prepaid.

Nothing.

* Jack was offered $40k PLUS $50k extra to ship a container, putting JJP $50k ahead and prepaid.

Nothing.

* Jack was offered to be paid current PLUS $15k additional prepaid, which was $15k more than the amount owed on any machine at any time.

Nothing.

I understand all offers were conditional on JJP actually shipping games, with JJP being paid when the games were made and boxed and ready to be uplifted by Bumper's shipping agent. JJP never shipped and never gave a reason for the failure.

Bumper's customers had been waiting 2 years already and were starting to want to cancel orders because of a lack of machines on the ground.

And there were other deals Jack had agreed to, and always missed.

So JJP either never made the games, or made them and sold them complete with LE plates to other buyers for more money. (This has been admitted by Jack)

JJP sits on $150,000 all paid by December 2012.

JJP scored up to $180,000 by reselling all of Bumpers WOZ plated machines to US buyers.

JJP started selling off these machines in May 2013. JJP was confronted about this in July/August 2013. JJP admitted that he was "always going to make an Australian version".

In exchange for the $150,000 JJP has already received, JJP has shipped 4 LE units and one prototype machine, this latter was exchanged as part of the deal for Jack to receive $50,000, which he accepted November/December 2012.

As it stands, 18 months after paying JJP the deposits on 76 machines, and noen months after paying Jack an additional $50,000, JJP has shipped just 4 machines plus one prototype.

The prototype belonged to Old Bumper as JJP had agreed to ship it in exchange for Jack receiving a $50,000 payment against customer machines JJP was due to make.

NB the prototype was not sold by JJP for $50,000. It was a sweetener from Jack as part of a business deal that saw JJP receive $50,000.

The prototype was then sold by Old Bumper to New Bumper as part of the buyout of stock and equipment in the business sale.

I sometimes wonder whether Jack EVER intended to ship ANY machines to Australia, or was Bumper just a cash cow that was used to prop up JJP? It still does, otherwise JJP would ship machines or a refund.

Now that Jack's game with Bumper has come to an end, JJP has moved on to another Australian distributor who has promised JJP an order of 250 machines @$6200 each,this is a $1.55 million order and allegedly prepaid.

Apparently JJP has shipped the new distributor a prototype too....Some people don't learn from others' mistakes.

Today I also wonder why Bumper's customers are still left hanging without contact after JJP took back the (old Bumper) franchise and gave an undertaking to deal with all customers directly.

Jack has all their phone numbers and emails but no contact has been initiated with the group of customers.

Evidently Jack is only returning calls from WOZ buyers who also hold Hobbit orders.

I'll wonder about that tomorrow.

Jack took back the whole shebang from new Bumper and said he would deal with all customers directly. JJP has to deliver a machine or refund payments. New Bumper then has no rights to the franchise or any obligations to Jack. Jack took over Bumper's customers.

You haven't gathered much.

The bulk of the money was taken in under the founder and former owner of the business. The next owners sold a few machines and collected progress payments, and sued the former owned for the return of funds. Jack did not oppose the transfer of the franchise from the founding entity to the next owners of the business. He refused it the next time.

Two organisations have received money from customers, one directly and one indirectly in exchange for making machines. The machine maker didn't make the order and refuses to refund or make good the order. The direct recipient/s have sold their business interests or liquidated themselves.

You're also forgetting that the hypothetical Bill Gates took over the customers and gave an undertaking to deliver their machines. The customers were then to get their XBoxes from Bill.

Except Bill reneges and sells these customers' genuine XBoxes at a premium to his mates, and then offers a cut down version that is not a genuine XBox to appease customers, oh and at a higher price too.

Yes it is. And it's easy to solve. One person just has to admit they outsmarted themselves and got caught out making back door sales of presold and prepaid hardware.

You need to be very clear in understanding the timing of events and the recruitment dates of staff. Your statement above is incorrect in calendar and actions. You should correct this.

Jack was even offered up to $50,000 in advance of the next order along with payment in full of the current shipment, as long as he shipped the machines.

JJP never made the machines. He JJP never had them ready for shipping, or if they did Jack then resold them for higher US retail prices instead of dealer wholesale price.

Sounds incredible that some one can ask for money and be offered more than they were asking, as long as they ship machines - and then not make the machines. One has to wonder why JJP never shipped the games.

So if all this is true I would have thought New Bumper would be taking action against JJP, could you post one of your famous "google is your friend" links to show where New Bumper has put their money where their mouths are and started legal proceedings please?

Ta.

New Bumper is not a franchise holder of JJP, and was not permitted to become one by Jack.

So New Bumper cannot sue JJP as it does not hold customer money or orders for machines.

Customer money was lost in the previous incarnations of the business, not by the current company.

The new company therefore has no grounds to go after the old company which is in liquidation. And new Bumper has no grounds to go after Jack, after Jack moved to make sure that neither new Bumper or old Bumper In Liquidation could make any claim against him by the way of and with what he agreed to take back in the franchise.

Why else would Jack request that New Bumper indemnify JJP against any future claims?

I believe that the best and most achievable outcome is to chase JJP for a machine.

Fair call.

If I didn't get my game I would have someone's balls...

But you said before new bumper bought orders and cash from old bumper. So if I understand this right you are now saying new bumper did not get the cash from old bumper like you told us when you explained the current transition process. Even though new bumper did not get money from old bumper, they were offering to pay JJP for machines even though they never got money from old bumper. Why would new bumper do that, were they just being nice?

What about the guys here that said they paid new bumper in the past month for Hobbit? Are you saying old bumper has that money also or are those considered non-refundable deposits?

Why should Bumper care? One pissed off customer more or less doesn't matter anymore.

For those trying to make the maths add up, I'm sorry but it won't.

That is the purpose of a corporate restructure - to transfer assets between entities and quarantine liabilities. Almost always, a company is stripped of assets prior to its liquidation (through legitimate commercial transfers) at less than fair market value. Liabilities typically stay with first entity and then offer limited recourse for anyone chasing their money or goods.

As an EXAMPLE only, Entity A sells $1m worth or equipment, stock and intangible assets to Entity B for $50k - suddenly $0.95m has disappeared. Other than those sums already flagged which had been sent to JJP, any additional deposits monies would have been used for operating cashflow to buy equipment, stock, pay employees, pay dividends to directors, or whatever....

The piece that is missing here are the terms under which assets were transfered from Bumper 2 to Bumper 3.

Simple question Noodle - given you want to put things out in the open what assets were bought from Bumper 2 and for how much? I'm betting Bumper 3 bought all stock, equipment, licence/distribution rights (and anything of value) at cents in the dollar. If that is the case, then sadly everyone's deposits (or some of it more correctly) has morphed into discounted stock and equipment sitting in the 4 walls of Bumper 3!!!

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/andrewmcfbrown/100016849/the-wizard-of-oz-and-the-truth-about-the-hanging-munchkin/

There is significant uncollected money in part paid orders, from the majority of orders. That leaves a modest amount to fund from cashflow, so the offer to take over the orders and pay the remaining is viable. The key point that has been corrected to me was that there was no WOZ cash in the buyout, there was an undertaking to deliver customer's their machines and this is a part of what Jack took over when he refused the transfer of the franchise.

Jack's problem then was one of his own making, he had already resold the machines that belonged to the customers that he was now responsible for satisfying directly.

Hence the rapid appointment of the new distributor Gillard. It seems that Jack has passed on to Gillard the franchise undertakings that he took back from Bumper. Else Gillard would not be chasing the prototype that was given to Bumper earlier as a part of an payment agreement.

Uh, so the modern Australian judicial system is just letting the parties argue on Internet forums? And whomever wins the argument or gets the most thumbs up is the party in the right?

Ok, this just proves the new bumper has literally no ethics at all. Zero credibility again. Who would believe any of your long posts. Legally you guys have found loop holes to defraud, cheat and steal people's money. That does not make it right. Oh, and you didn't do it once, but twice. That means doing it a third time should be fairly easy right.
Boy oh boy, these guys are a piece of work.

Noodlebox. There's one thing that your missing; your a liar.

Your statements are conflicting, you have been proven as a liar.

Please stop telling lies, and confusing the good buyers of woz.

I foresee that all of what you have said here being used against you in a criminal or civil suit. This does not look good for you, no matter how you say it. Some personal advice....just stop

Yes you do. At the WOZ buyers creditors meeting last Wednesday night, a gentleman turned up with receipt for a Wizard Of Oz machine dated 10th August 2013. He had walked into Bumper and they took $3000 from him as a deposit. This was 3 weeks after Bumper 2 was liquidated on the 26th July and Rob Farrell was now the new owner. They were now called Bumper Amusements, however, the gentlemans receipt was on Bumper Action Amusements (Bumper 2)letterhead the liquidated company. Bumper Amusements were still taking money even though they knew they couldn't deliver a machine as JJP had removed their distributorship rights. He has asked for a refund but hasn't got one. That's why he was at the meeting.

_{Post edited by Playerone : Typo}

True only this one was both money and product fraud. They didn't just take the persons money they did so given them a non-product. The original purchasers they stole from may have some legal resource ( who knows ) but this person has a physical product and is likely caveat emptor.

So they paid for something that is likely stolen, and also can't be resold to recoup cash. It's borderline useless.

Here's to hoping this buyer calls up so I can tell them all about the state of this game and they can proceed however they want to get their money back.

GFY Taylor

Hope it happens to TaylorVA some day.........or he gets ripped off, such a dumb post.

For absolute clarification Scott, the money being referred to in my post was customer money paid to old Bumper or Del.

Same gentleman had had Bumper's circumstances and change of ownership explained to him before and at time of purchase. Gentleman's enquiry had started several days earlier than the purchase with perhaps three or more phone conversations.

It was explained during the conversations and visit at time pf purchase that gentleman was buying off the new Bumper, indeed new premises also indicated where the transaction was made and it was not in premises that the old Bumper had been using.

The subsequent handling of that deposit payment shows payment going to new Bumper. AFAIK, the gentleman has also not asked for a refund from the liquidator, only from new Bumper.

At the time of transaction JJP had only indicated support for the change of franchise to the new Bumper and had not terminated the franchise.

New Bumper were allowing the buyout of another customer's order as until JJP ended the relationship, the management of the machine order and customer status was with New Bumper.

The gentleman had taken over an order dating back to 2011 as he had bought out another customer's position and deposit payment on said machine. This was explained to gentleman.

Jacks ends the franchise relationship and refuses to fill orders (still!)

Accordingly it becomes clear that the sale to the gentleman could now not proceed and his purchase through new Bumper is annulled.

Gentleman was advised Thursday 12/09/2013, at 4:25 PM of refund arrangements for next week.

Seems clear to me.

My headache has turned into a migraine....

Pinchroma, go back and read the email between Jack and Rob, showing Jack's agreement to ship the game when $50,000 was paid him.

Then take Jack off the pedestal you have him on. Your employer has had $150,000 of Australian customer money for nine months and has only shipped 4 machines. The pursuit of the prototype is just another smokescreen to mask the failure of JJP to ship machines to very patient Australian customers.

FWIW Customer knew at time of purchase the state of the game and upgrade issues. Customer informs us there is sentimental value in this particular machine as is. Upgrade was something to be considered and assistance was offered.

You guys might make these games (for non-Australian customers!) but you're not the only fellas who know the technical ins and outs of the prototypes. They have been out and been compared to new releases for a long time now.

Both qualify against your comment.

For the thread title: "Bumper sells Jacks Prototype Game Not Owned By Them";

Big deal. come to Detroit, Michigan USA. Lots of bidnesses sell stuff they don't own. Latest scam are houses with fake titles, mortgages, all looking "legal" until the owner shows up. The pigeon is out their "down payment" and usually several monthly payments once the property owner shows up and retains their property. Also happens with cars and even general merchandise. The perps win (see below).

The scams seem legit because the scam artists take credit/debit cards (some of the pigeons use their "Bridge card" which is a welfare card. "Owners" of general merchandise usually get nutthin' as the perps have nothing (money is immediately spent on recreational pharmacuticals, lottery tickets, booze, casino visits (Pokie machines to the Aussies) etc. and debtor's prison has been closed here for many years.

Noodlebox, you have been all over the map in your claims of "fact" and in doing so destroyed your credibility. If you told me it was raining, I'd have to go to the window to check.

Good to hear Detroit is still a world leader in something.

So much bullshit being tossed around in this thread, gonna need a boat.. the waders aren't enough

Seriously, there is one key point here, and that is that the liquidator clearly states new bumper is on the hook for WOZ deposits. The exact quote: "A term of the sale agreement was that the purchaser assumed responsibility for outstanding claims relating to customers that had unfulfilled orders in relation to "Wizard of Oz" machines."

Hopefully new bumper doesn't try to reorg into bumper 3 (4?) and ditch these liabilities before anything can be done. The relationship between JJP and either bumper is irrelevent at this point from a buyers' point of view - they have no business relationship or contract with JJP. Noodlebox is throwing out smokescreen after smokescreen, but it's pretty straightforward: this is between bumper and the people who handed bumper their money. File suit against new bumper for a refund and subpoena the liquidation documents to prove his liability, then hope the carcass has enough cash to cover a significant percentage of the deposits.

I'm re-quoting the text of this email for convenience (not that we have any proof that it's accurate to what was said).

Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 00:07:56 -0400
From: Jersey Jack Pinball <[email protected]>
To: Robert Farrell <XXXXXXXXX>

Hi Rob.....OK

One date change, we are at a show until 10/16 so we can airfreight the first game to you leaving on 10/17

If you write any update, please pass it by me so I'm on the same page. Thanks.

Best Regards,

Jack Guarnieri

(732) 433-4333

On Sep 16, 2012, at 10:37 PM, Robert Farrell <robert@XXXXXXXXXXXX> wrote:
Hi Jack-

talked with the guys this morning and we are all agreed on the plan that we outlined.
1. You get one machine ready for air ship Oct 15th-we will pay to ship it and process you 50k payment on its arrival.
2. Nov 1 you advise how many machines will be ready for 11/13 container we process payment for all those machines then.
3. 11/13 games loaded and moving we process another 50k payment to you.
4. Final date for remaining machines to be shipped. We make full payment for all remaining machines 1/2 way point from shipping. (example if its a month away we pay two weeks)
5. I will organize an update message to guests with your add on words.
6. Video of you and XXXXXXXX with machine for guests to see (XXXXXXX will love that as well as the guests).

I think this will work great and achieve all our objectives.

XXXXXX and myself will be coming to IAAPA and possible make a swing visit to Jersey prior or after (whichever works for you) I would love to see the operations as I always enjoy watching the process of new gear coming to Life.

Kind regards,

Here's the problem: it's meaningless. An emails from mid-September talking about sumething to happen mid-October that only ended up arriving early December. A hell of a lot would've happened in that timespan. Any "sale" would have an invoice or an official accounting of machines sent/owed, not a vaguely worded email that doesn't actually contain verbage supporting what you claims it says and could thus be ripped to shreds by any pre-law student.

From Bumper, early December 2012:

After a long wait, a PROTOTYPE WOZ has arrived at Bumper.

Note ; this is not the complete full version machine, production units with full code are yet to be completed.We pushed to have something on display and have something to show our customers.

It is not on the showroom floor yet and can be viewed/played by customers that have committed to buy.

The machine is a work of art,pictures do not do this machine justice, the quality of the build is amazing.

"Prototypes" aren't meant to be sold to customers, especially when they haven't even passed safety certifications. If you hadn't lost hundreds of thousands of dollars of your customers' money and thus blown the JJP distributorship, you and everyone else here knows that prototype would've gone back to Jack to be replaced with a final production machine.

So Jack just keeps the money and ships nothing?

No, Jack waits for the legal system to work through the process and waits for the Aussie courts to tell him what to do. At least that makes sense to me.

Ken

Noodlebox, you write well and have argued your point with no small amount of debate/political skill. In fact, many of your debate opponents in these various Bumper threads have been banned or received ban votes or warnings for violating Pinside policies in their responses to you.

Though the post I quoted above is not a major infraction of Pinside policies I am viewing it as trolling statement as you knew when you typed that you would upset a great many people. I am not going to ban vote you for it (as I am one of the more liberal mods here) but if there is another statement like that one I will.

You can make your points here, but do so with respect and do not make posts that you should know will upset people. Have a good day.