(Topic ID: 58556)

Bumper Action Amusements Australia owes 79 WOZ Games or refund!


By Ballypinball

5 years ago



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There are 801 posts in this topic. You are on page 16 of 17.
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#751 5 years ago
Quoted from Paulbozo:

Delivered to who, people that have paid for ec wozle through bumper will never get there games.
And yes Mr Bozo is fine.
And also the AULE and the ec wozle are exactly the same except for the apron, one doesn't clunk more than the other.

The wooden apron is such a nicer finish......... the aule dint have the same feeling as the wozle might off been that machine hence why I got a wozle

#752 5 years ago
Quoted from brent149:

It may be Bumpers fault, but didn't I read JJP made them the exclusive dealer in Australia? Essentially if you wanted a machine they made you go through them. That leaves them at least partly responsible.

Quoted from Retropin:

Australian WOZ buyers were forced by JJP to go through Bumper if they wanted the greatest pinball ever made. Bumper were made SOLE distributors.. you could not purchase outside. this was a decree by Jack himself. Bumper were flown over and given maintenance courses so they could be the face of JJP in Australia.. sales, warranties, repairs, parts etc etc etc. Demo machine was shipped to bumper to display... ONLY official distributors received one. Once the deal with Bumper was made.. it was a closed shop to all Australian buyers.
if a manufacturer has a sole distributor.. FORCING ALL sales in that country to that distributor, then the manufacturer is as liable as the distributor... its very simple.

Doesn't seem that simple to me. Why would JJP's "liability" be any different if an exclusive distributor folds than if it had allowed five distributors in Australia and one of them folded? Do manufacturers have a unique obligation to guarantee the financial viability of exclusive dealers, but no such obligation if they permit two or more dealers to sell their product in the same region? In both cases, any money paid by customers to the failed distributor would be gone, and JJP will take a reputation hit as a result regardless of whether it has any legal liabilities to those customers.

One solution, if you're going to do preorders at all, is to structure things the way PPS has, where distributors collect the payments but must send them immediately to PPS. That way if a distributor folds, PPS is holding the customer's money and can either make the machine or refund as appropriate (I would guess PPS considered this particular situation in creating that policy). Of course manufacturers can also go bankrupt, so it will always be a gamble to pre-order big expensive toys like these.

#753 5 years ago

We have plenty of lawyers and would have taken the claims to our courts.

How would that have played out in your country?

Quoted from Pintoxicated:

....if this had of happened in America there would have been a massive outcry but because it happened to other guys in another country that makes it OK?....

#754 5 years ago
Quoted from fosaisu:

Doesn't seem that simple to me. Why would JJP's "liability" be any different if an exclusive distributor folds than if it had allowed five distributors in Australia and one of them folded?

There could be something to the fact that JJP put consumers in harms way, by picking a single distributor and one that we now know was untrustworthy. What requirements did JJP have for someone to become a distributor?

Quoted from fosaisu:

One solution, if you're going to do preorders at all, is to structure things the way PPS has, where distributors collect the payments but must send them immediately to PPS. That way if a distributor folds, PPS is holding the customer's money and can either make the machine or refund as appropriate (I would guess PPS considered this particular situation in creating that policy). Of course manufacturers can also go bankrupt, so it will always be a gamble to pre-order big expensive toys like these.

I am pretty sure any refund and/or product created would have to go back to the courts that are handling the bankruptcy in order to pay off the creditors. I think all payments would have to be direct to the manufacture, completely bypassing the distributor, to avoid this issue.

#755 5 years ago
Quoted from Pintoxicated:

if this had of happened in America there would have been a massive outcry but because it happened to other guys in another country that makes it OK?

Stern has multiple distributors in the US--if I gave money to one of their distributors and that distributor took the money/went bankrupt, etc. I am not sure I could go directly to Stern to get another pin. If that distributor had already paid my money to Stern, then Stern would owe that distributor a pin which should eventually go to me. But if the money never made it to Stern (or only a portion of it), I am not sure I would expect Stern to just give me another pin because it was ordered through one of their distributors.

It sounds like JJP is going to supply the number of WOZ pins that they have received payment for. Yes, it is taking excrutiatingly long to get them out, but what else do you really expect JJP to do?

#756 5 years ago
Quoted from scott_freeman:

We have plenty of lawyers and would have taken the claims to our courts.
How would that have played out in your country?

I think you would find that there are various court actions going on down here but the details cannot be discussed, the same as with any court matter, until the proceedings have been finalised.

#757 5 years ago

Court cases seem to be heading towards a dead end. Each quote to get the money back starts about $10K for an individual, and will end up more than that. As a collective, I don't think people want to part out even more money for lawyers flogging an already dead horse (bumper) with the possibility of loosing even more than the $10k already lost. Jack warned me Bumper wasn't passing on our money to him months before Bumper went broke, I warned people, and fronted Bumper about it. They gave me a written guarantee the money was completely safe - now worthless because they declared bankruptcy, so money gone. I've given up on ever seeing the original. Hope the new LE's make it over so they can be sold and money redistributed to the 79 who are owed it. Still hopes for that. Not sure the market will absorb that many machines now though.

#758 5 years ago
Quoted from dendoc:

Jack warned me Bumper wasn't passing on our money to him months before Bumper went broke, I warned people, and fronted Bumper about it. They gave me a written guarantee the money was completely safe - now worthless because they declared bankruptcy, so money gone

Just curious, was Bumpers still a JJPs distributor after this was said?

Sorry that all of you are going through this mess

#759 5 years ago
Quoted from Zaxxis:

There could be something to the fact that JJP put consumers in harms way, by picking a single distributor and one that we now know was untrustworthy. What requirements did JJP have for someone to become a distributor?

Yes but that same argument applies if he picked five distributors and one of them went bust -- ultimately, you'll be judged by the company you keep which is why I said JJP takes a reputation hit (fairly or unfairly) as a result of this whole mess.

Quoted from Zaxxis:

I am pretty sure any refund and/or product created would have to go back to the courts that are handling the bankruptcy in order to pay off the creditors. I think all payments would have to be direct to the manufacture, completely bypassing the distributor, to avoid this issue.

Definitely agree that once the dealer is in bankruptcy, there's no guarantee you could quickly get your money back even if it were being held by the manufacturer. Would all depend on how the agreements are written and the bankruptcy laws of the country in question. Maybe PPS merely meant that it is holding deposit funds directly to protect buyers from dealer theft as opposed to dealer bankruptcy. Hopefully we'll never have to find out.

#760 5 years ago

This is exactly why these type of pay-in-advance and wait forever pre-order schemes is a really bad idea. Wait until you can play the product and then buy it. No chance of getting screwed.

#761 5 years ago
Quoted from Mato:

Aussie LE are prob for distributer, there waiting for EC wozles

I though the Aussie LE's were for the group, and anyone else in Aussie who wanted an EL but never got the chance because of the Bumper debacle?

#762 5 years ago

If Jack delivered on 1 of his 1000 promises to get the machines out before 2012 and even 2013 I'd have a machine but I don't and now I won't ever own a JJP machine. Not only because I've lost 8k but because I was lied to for 2 years and that's the bit that stings me the most. Being lied to over and over again that the machines were mearly weeks away

#763 5 years ago
Quoted from pinstyle:

I though the Aussie LE's were for the group, and anyone else in Aussie who wanted an EL but never got the chance because of the Bumper debacle?

Nope they're for Wayne to sell. Not for the group! There are 22 machines for the group to recoup whatever money we can get and redistribute to everyone

#764 5 years ago
Quoted from pinstyle:

Mato said:

Aussie LE are prob for distributer, there waiting for EC wozles

I though the Aussie LE's were for the group, and anyone else in Aussie who wanted an EL but never got the chance because of the Bumper debacle?

Aussie LE's are for the new JJp distributor only, only guessing Mr Wayne made this deal with mr jack mid to late last year, Apparently there are 250, who know how many of these 250 have come through

the Saga continues

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Wizard-Of-OZ-Pinball-Machine-NEW-Jersey-Jack-Greatest-Pin-Ever-Full-LCD-Screen-/161248856005?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_15&hash=item258b2e47c5

#765 5 years ago
Quoted from dendoc:

Jack warned me Bumper wasn't passing on our money to him months before Bumper went broke, I warned people, and fronted Bumper about it. They gave me a written guarantee the money was completely safe - now worthless because they declared bankruptcy, so money gone.

So jack doesn't owe you guys any games if he never got any money if this is true.

#766 5 years ago
Quoted from Audioenslaved:

Nope they're for Wayne to sell. Not for the group! There are 22 machines for the group to recoup whatever money we can get and redistribute to everyone

Sorry, my mistake.

Hang in there guys. I dont think Jack is out to take anyones money. I think he has to be very careful given the circumstances. I dont think anyone knows all the details or what is invovled here. I beleive Jack will build the games he was paid for and him offering them at a discount is a very nice gesture.

Another thing, i dont think there is a person here who doesnt feel for those who got screwed by Bumper. So the comments of "well if this happened in America..." are uncalled for.

#767 5 years ago
Quoted from lordloss:

So jack doesn't owe you guys any games if he never got any money if this is true.

He got some of the money (130k) as partial payment for 79 games but Bumper didn't pass on the rest.

-1
#768 5 years ago

Jack isn't offering a discount at all... If he offered something like that I would consider

Quoted from pinstyle:Sorry, my mistake.
Hang in there guys. I dont think Jack is out to take anyones money. I think he has to be very careful given the circumstances. I dont think anyone knows all the details or what is invovled here. I beleive Jack will build the games he was paid for and him offering them at a discount is a very nice gesture.

Jack isn't offering a discount at all... If he offered something like that I would consider maybe buying one. But no he offered nothing of the sort. If he offered to sell us machine at cost it would certainly be a gesture anyone would think of but nope

#769 5 years ago
Quoted from Audioenslaved:

If he offered to sell us machine at cost it would certainly be a gesture anyone would think of but nope

Unfortunately I think his "cost" may actually be more than the original pre-order cost due to delays, redesigns, cost over run and mismanagement. (This is simply my opinion and is not based on insider information.)

#770 5 years ago

I believe Jack's hands are tied and if he did refund the money the lawyers and liquidators would get it all and the guys that lost their money wouldn't see a dime of it.
Sad situation and it seems like the crooks who stole the money are protected by the law in Oz.

#771 5 years ago
Quoted from tracelifter:

I believe Jack's hands are tied and if he did refund the money the lawyers and liquidators would get it all and the guys that lost their money wouldn't see a dime of it.
Sad situation and it seems like the crooks who stole the money are protected by the law in Oz.

Most likely so. The situation is not as cut and dry as some people might think.

Quoted from Audioenslaved:

Jack isn't offering a discount at all... If he offered something like that I would consider

Jack isn't offering a discount at all... If he offered something like that I would consider maybe buying one. But no he offered nothing of the sort. If he offered to sell us machine at cost it would certainly be a gesture anyone would think of but nope

And I thought Jack was offering the LEs at a lower cost so the group would be sent as many as possible for a better chance of everyone recouping as much of their money as possible? Where did I read this?

-1
#772 5 years ago
Quoted from lordloss:

So jack doesn't owe you guys any games if he never got any money if this is true.

Maybe have another read through all the posts, JJP did receive $130k from Bumper and to date has done nothing with it as far as supplying the machines he received the money for. That is what the 22 games are supposed to be for. I don't know how many months or even years it is now that JJP has had the $130k but considering they have had the use of that money to build games or invest, you'd think JJP would have thrown in an extra machine or two for the guys that continue to suffer through no fault of their own as some sort of sign of good will.

Of course this whole thing is much more detailed that many of us know about. It would be interesting to know exactly when JJP realised there were issues with Bumper Action and what they did about it.

Throw in the untimely death of Del Reiss recently and it is simply a mess.

#773 5 years ago
Quoted from fosaisu:

Yes but that same argument applies if he picked five distributors and one of them went bust -- ultimately, you'll be judged by the company you keep which is why I said JJP takes a reputation hit (fairly or unfairly) as a result of this whole mess.

Oh I absolutely agree. The difference is with five distributors you are creating competition and thus hopefully a more honest marketplace. Here in the states, if I don't like a distributor I can go else where. By picking a single distributor, one could possibly argue that JJP didn't do enough due due diligence in setting up his network.

#774 5 years ago
Quoted from Andyj965:

He got some of the money (130k) as partial payment for 79 games but Bumper didn't pass on the rest.

I forget the exact timeline, but why was this the case? Since this was for pre-order money, JJP should be requiring next day (or near) deposits for games. No reason for a distributor to hold onto anything except their cut.

#775 5 years ago
Quoted from Zaxxis:

Oh I absolutely agree. The difference is with five distributors you are creating competition and thus hopefully a more honest marketplace. Here in the states, if I don't like a distributor I can go else where. By picking a single distributor, one could possibly argue that JJP didn't do enough due due diligence in setting up his network.

And he has chosen only one in Australia again to be a distributer, which I will never buy off which means he misses sales.

#776 5 years ago

Unfortunately once liquidators/administrators are appointed any money they can get goes to them.
Including money given to jjp.

#777 5 years ago
Quoted from PinPatch:

Unfortunately once liquidators/administrators are appointed any money they can get goes to them.
Including money given to jjp.

That is what I got out of reading all of this, they will be the only winners when the dust settles.
They get the ring, the buyers get the finger.

#778 5 years ago

The problem is the 2 Americans behind Bumper Action Amusements

1 Howard Bellin and 2 Robert Farrell

Robert Farrell Spend everyones money but Howard Bellin then agreed to sell the business to Robert Farrell for $39k then liquidated the Company with no assets and no liabilities to Howard Bellin as the Company is Liquidated.

If Robert Farrell was such a bad manager and poorly managed the business according to the Liquidation documents why would his employer then sell the Business to him for $39k???

Put those 2 things together and we will have a winner.

Add the fact that none of the WOZ creditors were on any Creditors list from the Liquidator and therefore didn't attend any creditors meeting to object to the Liquidation or be able to demand an investigation into the whole saga??

Now we have a Business sold for $600k with a turnover of over 2 million a year and 40 years in the business destroyed in a little over a year and then sold for $39k and still trading today!!!!!!!!!

Anyway the Liquidator is not going after the money Jack is holding as the company has liquidated and that part of the Business was sold to Robert Farrells new Bumper Amusements but Mr Farrell has no money to pay for all the games as all the money he spent when he managed Bumper Action Amusements, and after he attempted to obtain the 4 games that did ship and was attempting to resell them to others and the fact he sold jacks prototype, would anyone trust him now in his new Company?

So they wait for 22 games from Jack which is the only hope that will give them something

Sorry for all the above it probably doesn't make sense but that's how it worked out

#779 5 years ago
Quoted from Mato:

The wooden apron is such a nicer finish......... the aule dint have the same feeling as the wozle might off been that machine hence why I got a wozle

if you convince yourself hard enough there WILL be a difference.... even tho theres none
p.l.a.c.e.b.o.

#780 5 years ago
Quoted from Ballypinball:

The problem is the 2 Americans behind Bumper Action Amusements

I feel for the guys who got screwed but I have a problem with the "Americans" comment. Weren't these guys "Australian" distributors? Where they based out of America but they posed as Australian Distributors? Please explain.

-1
#781 5 years ago

They are both American Not Australian

Nothing meant by it other than the laws punish Australian Citizens but others can do what they like

One is an EX marine you would thing he would have honour and ethics but no

#782 5 years ago

Believe it or not, I just read this whole thread. I am very sorry to admit that.

Product delays for distributors happen all of the time. If their business was running that tight on margins that one distributor put them out of business, that is their fault.

Given their ethics and how this was handled, I am not even sure the games would have made it to the rightful owners even if Jack had made them on time. It sounds to me that Jack is doing the right thing and making the machines he was paid for. In my mind he really doesn't have any further obligation.

It is just sad that this happened at all. I really am sorry for you folks.

As I write this you should all know that I am at risk of bad ethics as well. Jack has my money for both WoZ and TH. If he goes under, I am screwed. I couldn't expect his suppliers of cabinets, boards and other parts to pay me even if they were already paid by Jack. It just doesn't work that way in the U.S. I understand this risk and I am ok with it. Others may not. If so, they should stay away from business models like this. The best model is pay and receive the same day. But in the case of a startup, it isn't practical. So here we all are........sorry again.

#783 5 years ago

As long as there is prepay there will be people getting burned .

#784 5 years ago

im never a fan of pre pay. especially when you dont have the item in hand anywhere up to 3 years.

the situation with The Hobbit im sure will be a lot better. i.e pre ordering will be a lot smoother, and the process a lot quicker.

-1
#785 5 years ago

Doctor oz the new pinball by jjp. A match made in heaven with those two. You heard it here first.

-1
#786 5 years ago
Quoted from iamabearsfan:

Believe it or not, I just read this whole thread. I am very sorry to admit that.
Product delays for distributors happen all of the time. If their business was running that tight on margins that one distributor put them out of business, that is their fault.
Given their ethics and how this was handled, I am not even sure the games would have made it to the rightful owners even if Jack had made them on time. It sounds to me that Jack is doing the right thing and making the machines he was paid for. In my mind he really doesn't have any further obligation.
It is just sad that this happened at all. I really am sorry for you folks.
As I write this you should all know that I am at risk of bad ethics as well. Jack has my money for both WoZ and TH. If he goes under, I am screwed. I couldn't expect his suppliers of cabinets, boards and other parts to pay me even if they were already paid by Jack. It just doesn't work that way in the U.S. I understand this risk and I am ok with it. Others may not. If so, they should stay away from business models like this. The best model is pay and receive the same day. But in the case of a startup, it isn't practical. So here we all are........sorry again.

Yeah I struggle with the idea of reading this whole thing... Pinball is a niche community and you alienate one market you're going to be in trouble! Yeah Jack doesn't have to do anything but if you're starting a new company do you really want to piss anyone off? I don't think we're asking for a hand out just the 22 games that are owed and it'd be nice if he asked everyone if they want a game at cost to take away from the fisting most of us took. Again not free but a gesture of help.

I think if the games were made on time there would be criminal charges on these guys for theft but I think I'd have my game.

#787 5 years ago

What sort of a reception do you think jj would receive if he showed his face at the expo in November in Sydney??

#788 5 years ago

Probably mostly nice to his face lol

#789 5 years ago
Quoted from ledge:

im never a fan of pre pay. especially when you dont have the item in hand anywhere up to 3 years.
the situation with The Hobbit im sure will be a lot better. i.e pre ordering will be a lot smoother, and the process a lot quicker.

What part of the events over the last 6 month where production has slowed to a trickle leads you to believe this?

#790 5 years ago
Quoted from John_I:

What part of the events over the last 6 month where production has slowed to a trickle leads you to believe this?

if you want to stay in business, you wouldn't want it to happen again... its their first machine, you would have learnt a lot from that one. logistically and everything associated with getting your first pin out... (in a timely manner)

#791 5 years ago
Quoted from ledge:

if you want to stay in business, you wouldn't want it to happen again... its their first machine, you would have learnt a lot from that one. logistically and everything associated with getting your first pin out... (in a timely manner)

I agree with everything you say. It takes money to produce the games though. I'm still not convinced that the pre-payments for TH haven't been used on WoZ production and simply keeping the company running though all the delays and problems...

-2
#792 5 years ago
Quoted from Audioenslaved:

.. I don't think we're asking for a hand out just the 22 games that are owed and it'd be nice if he asked everyone if they want a game at cost to take away from the fisting most of us took.

No. JJP owes the money. They are not allowed to make a partial sale when they only received deposits. They owe the money - plain and simple. In the US it would be called a preferential payment during a corporate BK and the trustee would claw it back in cash, not product. JJP will just keep the money indefinitely while promising machines to be produced. Good luck with that Ozzies.... you have truly been screwed by both bumper and JJP.

#793 5 years ago
Quoted from ledge:

im never a fan of pre pay. especially when you dont have the item in hand anywhere up to 3 years.
the situation with The Hobbit im sure will be a lot better. i.e pre ordering will be a lot smoother, and the process a lot quicker.

That's a good one. I'm asking Santa for a winning lotto ticket this year as well.

#794 5 years ago
Quoted from Ballypinball:

Sorry for all the above it probably doesn't make sense but that's how it worked out

Unbelievable. Thanks for the explanation. I need to pick my jaw off the floor. Just wow.

#795 5 years ago
Quoted from dendoc:

Court cases seem to be heading towards a dead end. Each quote to get the money back starts about $10K for an individual, and will end up more than that. As a collective, I don't think people want to part out even more money for lawyers flogging an already dead horse (bumper) with the possibility of loosing even more than the $10k already lost. Jack warned me Bumper wasn't passing on our money to him months before Bumper went broke, I warned people, and fronted Bumper about it. They gave me a written guarantee the money was completely safe - now worthless because they declared bankruptcy, so money gone. I've given up on ever seeing the original. Hope the new LE's make it over so they can be sold and money redistributed to the 79 who are owed it. Still hopes for that. Not sure the market will absorb that many machines now though.

What I am worried about though is that when the Aussie machines finally do ship, I am going to assume that most people will already have their games which means that the market will already be saturated. People probably won't be wanting to pay $10,000 for a pinball machine since there will be plenty of games to go around. Some people will get theirs, play it for a few weeks and get tired of it and sell it. Even if you were able to sell them for $9k a piece that would only yield the 79 people $2500 or so. This is high hopes though because there is no telling how the market will be once all games are delivered. We have already seen some WOZ's selling at discounted prices on here and other places. I imagine that unless something changes, the prices will continue to drop as well as the refund the 79 will see. Did you guys ever discuss maybe keeping the 22 games and lending them out to 22 of the 79 affected people. You set time a limit on how long the games will stay with the said 22 people and then when the time is up, send it to another 22 people and so on. This will give the 79 people the chance to have the game in their home and play it for awhile. Then once everyone has had the game atleast one time, then you can try and sell the machines and split the cost. Or if you have people that want to have the machine a 2nd time you could group those people together and let them trade the machines back and forth while the other group of people who don't want the game a 2nd time could sell all of theirs and split the money earned between them. I know this probably isn't the greatest idea because it would rely on every person who gets a machine to be honest and not sell them on their own or try and keep it for themselves or hide it or something. But you are kinda gonna run into that same issue once the 22 games are sent anyways unless they are all going to one person. Just trying to think up other possibilities for everyone as $2500 per person that lost $10k in a best case scenario just isn't that much money. In all reality the 79 people may not even see $1,500 depending on the market once the games are sold.

Not trying to bring anyone down or anything just stating how I feel. Either way, I really feel for the 79 that got taken by bumper. I hope you can come to some type of resolution that benefits the 79 in the greatest. Hopefully this does not sour your opinion on American business practice or ethics as there is only a few in the pinball hobby which are snakes in the grass.

#796 5 years ago

All good points but not all 79 paid in full, some only deposits, some half etc.

so 40-50% return is better than no return and that will regenerate Pinball here

PS the person who spent all the money is now trying to take your money look for rockbar in san Jose California

Stay Away Stay Far Away

#798 5 years ago

"Caveat emptor"

#799 5 years ago
Quoted from John_I:

I agree with everything you say. It takes money to produce the games though. I'm still not convinced that the pre-payments for TH haven't been used on WoZ production and simply keeping the company running though all the delays and problems...

None of us really know, but what leads me to believe this isn't the case is they aren't asking for more Hobbit money right now.

In fact, they've basically pushed out the payment plan for everyone, like "Ok, you are supposed to pay us $1000 this month for Hobbit, but you don't have to send it to us right now because the production scheduled changed..."

Now, if it was "Ok, whoever pays Hobbit off before Sept 1st gets free shipping, free extra plastic set..." or something like that, then I'd agree there's some evidence for everyone hypothesizing that Jack is living in a cardboard WOZ hiding from the creditors.

For all the problems Jack is having with production, it doesn't actually appear to me any of it has to do with capital or funds.

#800 5 years ago
Quoted from mechslave:

None of us really know, ...
For all the problems Jack is having with production, it doesn't actually appear to me any of it has to do with capital or funds.

THis is exactly what it appears like. There is a reason you can go in and order a new WOZ and get it before others who paid over 3 years ago.... and it's not a production problem. It's a "vendors want their money problem". The LE design has been complete for a long, long time.

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