You are correct, at the time when all this started he would have had no idea. We have since formed a collective affected buyers group. Every detail of who bought what and who's paid what is at Jacks disposal. Names, dates and addresses. This was secured through a ex insider from Bumper. After discussions between the group and Jack he agreed the best way forward was not for him to pay the 130k that he had acquired from Bumper back to the group to split up. As this was legally messy. Rather, he agreed to build 22 machines that the group would sell at market value and then distribute the proceeds pro rata through the group. As 22 machines sold at market value would net us more return than 130k. This would go further to fill the hole of 450k that is the total loss to the group.
However, Jack hasn't built a thing and has been the beneficiary of 130k of our money. This is not ok.
He should be putting everything on hold to make this wrong right. He's not, and this is the issue. If he can't afforded to do this, I have grave concerns for anyone thinking they will ever get a paid for machine.

How do you know JJP isn't going to build these 22 machines?

I agree... several of us ... about 275 ish have been waiting years for woz (myself included)
Jack has a good heart and a business mindset. It would not be a good business decision to alienate a future non USA market.

How do I know? This is the biggest financial loss to buyers of a new pinball in history! This should be front and centre of Jacks agenda to fix. Forget standards, forget walk ups, forget everyone who has been waiting 2 years, we have lost hundreds of thousands of dollars! If he can't put every thing on hold and build these 22 machines for people who have lost so much money and he still has 130k financial advantage out, well there something seriously wrong with his business ethic. He is as bad as Bumper, taking that money and delivering nothing, especially with what has happened puts him in the class of a common thief. Good luck to all waiting on machines. I'd be on the phone immediately.

Has anyone in your WF group tried to talk to JJP and see where they are on building these 22 machines? I'm just trying to come up with suggestions..

Constantly. No answers. He just treats the whole situation with appalling contempt.

Maybe grab some of your WF money and fly over there and knock on his door with a TV station, all these posts actually do nothing as people just sympathise and go lucky it wasn't me and then they move on its not like the pinside people can make them appear or pressure JJP in meeting your demands, you have to get over there and in their faces if you want anything to really happen........

I'm just saying

Good luck

With respect THEY shouldnt have to do anything. JJP should just bloody sort this crap out. Pronto.

If the machines are made as compensation who will be collecting the funds and distributing it? Maybe the 130k is still tied up and will be claimed by the Bumper receivers in Australia from JJP. If this is a chance to happen I don't blame JJP for not making the 22... Yet

i was thinking same thing, what if he does send machines or $$ to the WF group , and then receives an order to send the courts another 130k, will the WF group then refund the 130K back to JJP?

This should be front page news for a LONG time here on Pinside. IMIHO this thread should be stickied forever. New pin people need to know that they could get robbed in this fashion at any time and the JJP will not help. Whether JJP can help or not is irrelevant, there is no help forthcoming. Buyer be very very beware .

It is clear to me that the burden here lies with the manufacturer. He picked the distributors. He told the people "Hey buy games from this guy he is OK by me." Then - back pedalling. Distributor turns out to be a THIEF then the manufacturer should step up. It's the people who are getting robbed. Pin players and customers.

I'm not going into who is right/wrong but I have a golden rule: never pay for something you don't get right away..

These posts have done something. Given me a nice heads up to not give this company any money for non-existent product.

Dont quote me but the original bumper operators were pretty solid, it was the new ones that stuffed up. JJP I'm guessing signed up the original solid operator as his distributor.
I'm not 100% certain though.

Jack has the the money, he's had it all along. Stuff this I'm starting a new thread devoted tomthisntopic. See ya there!

Agree 100%.

If this doesn't make people question the common sense of sending ANYONE thousands of dollars YEARS ahead of promised delivery, then there's just no common sense left.

deposits? ok, maybe.
full payment with zero collateral? hells no.

JerseyJack said:

We are building and shipping what we were paid for. We are here, not going anywhere either. There are 55 games going to Australia in a few weeks - 22 of them are the paid for "Bumper games"
If we were paid for more when we asked Del & Co. To pay us - they would go too.
We are sorry this was not in our control as we could have done much more.

Is the idea with that, that of the 70 folks, 22 are going to buy the game from the collective, buying out the rest? Are there 22 that even want the game now?

Playerone stated in another thread:

It was decided with a voting system within the group that the 22 machines would be sold to the open market upon delivery with WF members to have first pick. The proceeds would then be distributed WF members in accordance with their loss.

-------------

So that is what the WF members (the people that got ripped off by Bumper) have decided to do.

Just being pedantic, when did JJ say this and what is the source?

Cheers

EDIT: Never mind I just saw the other thread where jack talks about it ~7-8 hours ago, lets hope it all goes according to plan from here

I don't believe this is true at all. In most cases a person applies to become an authorized distributer. If you meet their requirements, then they grant you as an authorized dealer. They don't pick up the phone book and ask Joe Shmoe if he wants to be a distributer.

The burden does not lie with JJP. There only obligation is to build what they were paid for, nothing more.

Exactamundo, until then we wait

Just give these buyers a $100 discount on Hobbit. They can send in another $7900 now and have their WOZ and Hobbit shipped together in three years.

Its been a few weeks now........ what's the update on this?

Woo big fella july 6th

2nd last post

http://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/we-want-our-machines-jack-guarnieri#post-1697330

Ok thought they said in the next few weeks..........july 6th will make it a month, where are the pics they promised of these being built?

Not far away everyone has been extremely patient since this post, hopefully JJ will deliver, I believe he will.

the thread above is locked, yes still no added info or pics, so i guess we wait

How could anyone buy anything from JJP after witnessing this train wreck? I can't begin to understand how anyone could throw money at them for TH. Best of luck with it guys. It is a shame that it took your posts to embarrass JJP into some sort of action.

Because this train wreck is due to malfeasance on the part of someone other than JJP? The other train wreck, that games are being produced both slowly and late is another problem that you can blame JJP for.

However, Bumper effectively stealing a bunch of money is not JJP's fault.

He makes these machine on any of the first promised dates and we have our games... Instead of a free prostate exam curtesy of a fist from bumper...

I was just there maybe over a week ago and i did notice several machines boxed and bound for Australia. I am almost positive they said Aussie LE, ....but they were there. Maybe a ray of hope. Hoepfully they are for the group and not just a distributer order.

Aussie LE are prob for distributer, there waiting for EC wozles

JJP have been sitting on $130k now for sometime and only appear to be acting after bad publicity. To me that is a train wreck and the exact thing a new business should not be doing in what we know is a very hard marketplace.

At least something is happening no matter what it took to make it happen.

It may be Bumpers fault, but didn't I read JJP made them the exclusive dealer in Australia? Essentially if you wanted a machine they made you go through them. That leaves them at least partly responsible.

Mato

You already have your game.
Why is it so much of a concern to you what version of the game Jack is building.

Here is another post for you guys in America to give the thumbs down to......if this had of happened in America there would have been a massive outcry but because it happened to other guys in another country that makes it OK? Just like the support MAD amusements receives despite repeatedly ripping overseas customers off, it seems the mentality is that it didn't happen here, or to me, so it's all good.

You guys keep on supporting businesses like this and nothing will ever change. I agree that JJP can't do anything about the vast majority of money that Bumper allegedly misappropriated, although Bumper as JJP's chosen Australian distributor was effectively the face of JJP down here. They can however make right with the $130k they did receive and to their credit it looks like something may finally be happening on that front although this is long overdue.

For me, I have a very good friend who lost a significant amount of money in this whole WOZ saga. He has spoken personally with JJ and it seems all he got was very very empty promises from the man himself and of course Bumper Action. This is fact and it is on these facts that I personally will never support JJP, buy or even play a JJP machine. My choice, my opinion and I wish all the guys affected all the very best. I sincerely hope that you are able to get something back at some stage before it is all too late.

Australian WOZ buyers were forced by JJP to go through Bumper if they wanted the greatest pinball ever made. Bumper were made SOLE distributors.. you could not purchase outside. this was a decree by Jack himself. Bumper were flown over and given maintenance courses so they could be the face of JJP in Australia.. sales, warranties, repairs, parts etc etc etc. Demo machine was shipped to bumper to display... ONLY official distributors received one. Once the deal with Bumper was made.. it was a closed shop to all Australian buyers.
if a manufacturer has a sole distributor.. FORCING ALL sales in that country to that distributor, then the manufacturer is as liable as the distributor... its very simple.

Pinball is a very strange market.. like complete fools, you place good money into the hands of those who make promises to produce before you've even set eyes on the product or even had any inclination as to how it may play..

it is only in pinball that this is possibe.

Im going to start my own pinball company and call it RECEL.. who's going to be first to give me $7000 for whats on my mind?

What, they sold Xmen LE?

Sorry ... couldn't resist.

Jeez I hope these WOZs show up as promised. July 6 is only a week away ....

rd.

How good is xmen! Wish I had my WOZ though...

Because I have friends in Perth that have been stung by this who paid in full........ and the version they ordered was the EC Wozle........not a Australia version.

And its not a concern on the machine that's being made i was answering someone else post

Yeah the Aussie ones aren't for us poor people who won't be getting a game...

So what does that have to do with what version of the game jack is making?

That's the post above I was referring to like I mentioned before, what are you on about? Maybe Bozo should be at the start of your name.......... on another note if they paid for EC wozle's that's what should be delivered not the Australian model as there are differences in the 2 machines.

the apron and thats it?

Delivered to who, people that have paid for ec wozle through bumper will never get there games.
And yes Mr Bozo is fine.
And also the AULE and the ec wozle are exactly the same except for the apron, one doesn't clunk more than the other.

What happened to the ECLE numbers allocated to the bumper machines?

good question, prob been reallocated......... who knows