About the same as all the negative talk about not having a tourney, quite discouraging at best. The fact that Clay wants to run a show without something every other show has and tourney players have hit him hard over it, well you miss the point also.

Even i like some competition but cannot see past the point that it does take away from other players attending the show in the form of games not available and other factors. You're right, Pinball is just a game, but it dont always have to be about who is the best. People shouldnt be expected to cater to the few while ignoring the rest. And this is the point of all the hatred being sent his way about his show and his machines in his building.

I just want to have fun beating a ball around inside of a mechanical toy. If you want to compete, more power to you: But I'm competing against the machine if at all.

Who's hitting him hard? He's the one who's taking shots at bigger tournaments. I attend shows where I don't compete in the tournament. PAGG for the last two years. I've seen several great players there that also didn't compete in the tournament. Guys like Rick Stetta, NES and Keith Elwin. A casual tournament is not a deal breaker for going to a show. If the show is good, players will attend. Bashing larger tournaments will not increase attendance at his show.

Do you look at the score when you're done? If yes, you're competing against yourself. Nothing wrong with that, but technically, you are competing.

Reread the post brother...... I wont go to a show without a tourney comments are littered throughout this thread.

In regards of taking shots, how can a problem be fixed if the problem cannot be identified without butt hurt and feelings involved ? Every show has their problems, i see nothing wrong with asking like he has.

You started it.

If you would've just said you were having a casual tournament and left it at that, you would've been fine. That's how PAGG does it. Instead you implied that your format was better than other tournaments and bashed tournament players. Good luck with the show.

Littered? I see one. Did I miss others?

There were three or more world class players at PAGG the last couple of years that didn't compete in the tourney. PPE became the same way as it went on. As players started noticing how much the show was taking out of the pot, players stopped playing in the tourney and still attended the show. Not as many traveled long distances, but all the west coast guys (BC to San Diego) went because the overall show was good. Even tourney players know a good show is a good show. It's rarely all about the tourney.

I've been in the hobby a while, playing tournaments for about a year, and will freely admit that's what attracts me most to a show. Competitive pinball is what I enjoy most about the hobby. That said, I would jump at the chance to play Clay's collection, tournament or not. His guides are what got me into the hobby 15 years ago and it's well documented how helpful they were (and are!)

The point I'm taking from this discussion is that I'm just glad the hobby is thriving enough where we have enough shows to even have this debate! I'm not sure anyone would have thought that not so long ago.

Best of luck with your show!

Look outside the box Phish....... Most of the complaints are coming from tourney players who feel slighted that a tourney isnt an option with this show.

Good for Kieth, Neil and Rick about not competing in their own backyard, but as it goes, who wants their dog to chit in their own backyard ? Maybe with them 3 stepping aside, more of your local players would participate instead of having the "donation mentality" that *MAY* limit that shows tourney numbers or attendance. Maybe a special favor from the tourney directors to boost their numbers ? Seems strange Kieth and Neil travel thousands of miles to compete yearly, but yet not in their own backyard !!!!!!!!! See Phish, we can all spin our opinions.

Sticks and stones.............. do we really need to go there ? I would believe %99 of us are adults, lets keep it civil.

Most tourney players are forgetting one main thing in this debate, its the casual players who keep their scores, run the tourney and show and provide the games. I dont blame Clay for defending the no tourney option, theres no benefit for him to bother with a tourney just to fill the hall. People will still come, all games will be available and a relaxed event will follow. Simple as that brother.

I guess I should have said that I currently won't go to a show without a tourney. The reason for this is because my funds for pinball travel are limited so I have to prioritize what events I travel to based on how they fit into a larger picture. I enjoy playing in tournaments so shows with tournaments get higher priority than those that don't have tournaments. Additionally, I don't aim to "get paid" playing pinball but if a tournament can offset the cost of the trip, then that makes me more likely to attend. Of course the reason I go is to have fun playing pinball (both in tournaments and out) and to hang out with my out-of-town pinball friends. If money was no object and I could afford to go to anything I wanted to, I would absolutely go to quality shows that don't have tournaments. As phishrace mentioned earlier, anyone can see that a good show is a good show, tournament or not. It's unfortunately just not something I can really do right now.

With all that said, I don't know a single competitive pinball player who is in it to "get paid". For real, if you asked me to name one I honestly couldn't. Everyone I know is there for the love of the game and the thrill of competition. Running a show with no "serious" tournament is totally fine and I understand Clay's reasons for wanting to do so, even if I don't necessarily agree with them personally. However, it really bothers me that tournament players are getting slammed so hard in this thread. Maybe tournament players are all dicks (including myself) and I'm just oblivious to it. I just don't think that's the case, though.

With the rise in competitive pinball I would like to see more competitions where entries actually help to offset the other aspects of the show rather than as large payouts to the winner.

I continue to realize that those that care about the competition are in it for the fun and the IFPA points and the $$$ don't really mean that much. Because of this I try to make payouts and trophies go deeper when I can fro the small events I put on.

To me it only seems appropriate that big events could siphon off from the prize pool of competitions in order to help pay for things like score keepers, people to load in/out games, people to pickup games and transport within X mile radius, and the similar. One important thing Clay has pointed out is that as games become more expensive it only seems right to help offset the potential damage and strain for those that bring them. Without the volunteers ad game bringers the shows would not happen. In fact, there are a few shows that seem to have much fewer games over the past few years (Expo for 1 was a dramatic change from 2012 to 2013) and organizers may need to think about how to better incentivize if they want to bring in more games. I will say that I really like how Clay is limiting the total # of tickets sold also. It seems he has hit the nail on the head with that one also... Too many people = not as much fun per person.

I went to MPE last year and said I would not go back this year due to how crowded it was vs. # of good playing games. Thursday was fun last year, but Fri through Sat there were too many people for my tastes.

I think other show organizers should think about what is the optimal game to people ratio and how t best take care of the people that are even making the show possible >> those that bring games to share with others.

For example, I love MGC but a big reason is that by bringing a game I get to be part of the after party where the game to people ratio is 1 to 1. The only way in the after party is to have brought a game. This is a big enough draw for me to want to not only bring a game but to also help out wherever I can. I think if a few of the bigger shows do not figure out how to get more games and keep them playing then there will be no competition to even worry about.

So you would go if the prize package at $5 a game would be 1st place.... trophy, bragging rights and a dinner for one at the bar down the road, 2nd place, VFW swag and 3rd place.... One free visit to VFW ?????????? With the show taking in all the proceeds to pay the people behind the scenes, scorekeepers, game suppliers and director ?

Slammed or slighted ? It really bothers me that Clay trying to come up with ideas about having a non tourney show is getting slammed for asking advice for what NOT to do that happens at other shows. Even worse, the slamming of his proposed format by tourney players. Believe me, i do play in tourneys, but its not my main goal to attend JUST for the tourney. ( http://www.ifpapinball.com/player.php?player_id=1625 ) Some want to basically enjoy the game without the added stress, meet some people and mingle around the masses, see what vendors have to offer, see what other collectors have done to their games. Learn some tricks and teach some also.

And to think i wasnt offended when IFPA held their invite only tourney and the casual player was left out in the cold. More power to their system, it still doesnt mean i will get an invite no more than its Clays duty to provide a tourney for them few.........

ScarWorldisYours.jpg

Really? You mean to tell me that those who fly across part of the Country to a show and spend virtually the entire show hours in the tournament are not doing it for the money? How about those that fly over to Europe from the United States. They're just doing it "for the love of pinball" (Just like Jack started JJP "for the love of pinball", sorry, I couldn't resist) Sure, believe whatever you want. I say they are doing it for the money and I refuse to line their pockets. I only play when a tournament entry is "included" (notice I did not say "free") with a show admission package.

Right you are Yancy. I believe that Duncan first brought his Star Gazer to Chicago Expo in 2003, or at least that is the first time I played it. After that show, it seemed like anyone looking for classic Stern games had Star Gazer tops on their want to buy list.

Try finding people complaining about your choice of format or payouts or tournament itself in this thread. You'll be hard to find any. The 'complaining' you are mentioning is actually people responding to the ragging, stereotyping, and general hate you've been throwing at others in an attempt at painting your event as the solution to world hunger.

If you just said a tournament isn't something we are interested in being the focus.. no one would have blinked an eye. But instead, you got up on the soapbox and painted tournament players as the scourge of the earth. And the hysterical part is now days later you continue to paint those you've slandered as the ones who started it all.

Buhaha.. "read outside the box". There was one guy (kevinDDR) who said he wouldn't goto a show without a tourney, and one guy (chadderack) who said he needs more than games+a few parts to justify traveling to a show. The rest is made up in your head. All the other posts were in response to the misconceptions, falsehoods, and general stereotyping by yourself and others. Basically a few called a whole group of people really negative things and used BS to justify it. The posts were in response to overall stupidity like the stuff posted by PinballHelp and the picture Clay was painting.

More useless stereotyping based on falsehoods. Many tourneys tend to be self-sustaining for the most part to stay out of the hair of the general organizers. Games being brought specifically for the tourney, staff, etc. Not sucking away from the main show against people's will or something. Most of the crying in this thread can be summed up as people upset that a tournament is keeping something away from them because they don't want to play. It's really no different then vendors keeping games in their booth away from the free play areas.

No sweat buddy, let's go get a drink together next time, and we should also have a dance-off. I'll try and do better the next time, I guess that accusations of sandbagging rub me the wrong way!

Best wishes to the new show, and Brawl on. Actually that might be a fun format for your show, maybe a draw-your-partner or must-drink-a-shot-after-each-ball affair...

Nice one sided rant, but again, not my experience with tourneys and (some of its) players. Ive volunteered my time and games for MPE (IN THE PAST), ive heard the complaints, seen the damage and poor sportsmanship. Ive had to answer to the general public why the newest sterns and the nicest games were not available for free play sitting idle all while the entire floor was 4 people deep per game. The fact that you take a blind eye to that is insulting at best.

Hmmmmmm, i wonder why !!!!!!!

And the rest of the crying is from players like yourself who feel slighted that an entire row of the best machines arent set aside for you all to abuse and collect donations from the casual player who just wants to make an informed purchase on their next title that happens to be in tourney row. Its really hard to explain why it cost $5 for one play when the ticket they bought for admission says free play !!

Wish I could go and help out at the show, but it seems the date of the show is going to conflict with the Detroit Pinball League finals that weekend, and I am already way over my personal time budget for pinball to family ratio.

Have fun pinheads.

Clay,
Are kids 12 and under welcome to attend?

Do they pay the same price?
(20 - 25 per day)

Our friends have children, and would like to attend.

otherwise, thread bump, and see you at your show

Let me start off by saying that I do not attend pinball shows because of tournaments, mostly because I am a terrible player. I mostly like playing games that I have never played before.

Has anyone really looked into the legality of hosting these high dollar tournaments? If you look into the law, isn’t it technically considered gambling because it’s a “pay to play” system? Only the state lottery and a select few nonprofit charities and allowed to do this and they are regulated by the state. That’s why when you see, for example, the McDonalds’ Monopoly sweepstakes advertisements that they always say “no purchase necessary” since you buying the meal is a “pay to play” system. McDonalds’ always has forms that you can join their contest and mail in and join without buying any of their products to get around that. I guess you could argue that the high dollar tournaments are a completion, but I really think it’s still a “pay to play” system still applies.

If the final prize is given by a sponsor and the money you pay into goes toward the use/wear of the machines during the completion, that’s a way you could skirt around it. Yet I feel high dollar buy-ins would really need to be questioned since the price to play seems over the value what typical wear and tear would be on a machine and the machines that are used are typically donated by people who never receive the compensation for use of their machines.

Lastly, one of the biggest problems with these high dollar tournaments is that the show promoter may advertise the games included in the tournaments as games being brought to the show for the public (general admission) and once you get there and pay your admission you realize the games you came to play are roped off. It could really put a bad taste in your mouth and I think game lists should be broken down by tournament and public games.

It’s just something you need to consider when planning these events.

Clay and I have talked at length about kid attendance. I’m sure what Clay meant to say is that if kids are found unattended, the parents will be rustled up and will be reminded of the requirement that their kids need to be supervised at all times. Clearly, if someone is constantly breaking any of the admittance requirements (or the transgression is severe) they will be asked to leave.

BTW: If your bringing a younger child (as in not very tall) be sure to bring your own step stool, as there will not be any available for general use.

Doug D.

They will be given a bag of candy, a large soda and a puppy!

having helped out at MPE a significant number of hours for the past 2 years, this looks like it could be a great event and viable alternative to shows like MPE and PatZ. checking to see if the gf is down with this so that I can order my tickets soon

I thought that puppies were only given out with orders from PBL

Why those games are 'over there' is a localized problem - not a general one. Get out some more. Why are they in the tournament is usually a choice of the game's owner. Really sounds like sour grapes to me..

All I can say is you are delusional. Get some help.

It's hard to make generalizations because this is a local/state issue... but the most common differentiation you see is 'if the house takes a cut'. For instance, in most places its allowed to have a cash poker game at your house.. as long as you the organizer does not take a cut of the stakes or winnings.

But lets face it... only a handful of payouts in the country would anyone consider 'high dollar'. Contrary to some beliefs posted here... people aren't in it to 'get paid'. If they are, they have picked the wrong sport! Most payouts don't cover people's own expenses. A net of a couple hundred dollars isn't supporting anyone's lifestyle.

You guys need to loosen up your panties.. seriously. I wasn't criticizing PAPA. I was just pointing out that not every region in the area can sustain "PAPA-style" competition (in fact, you all turned us down here in New Orleans because we weren't "big enough" for you... we could only host 50+ people at our tournaments and that was beneath the PAPA circuit). And not everybody who wants to play competitive pinball takes it as seriously as you do Bowen.

The fact is, there is a need for more "friendly" competition around the country (especially in areas such as ours where there is no thriving pinball scene and we have to create it from the ground up), involving types of tournaments and games that give EVERY DAY PEOPLE a realistic chance to feel like they can win and do well in a tournament. The people that may eventually end up at large PAPA-style events could be the guys (and girls) who have fun in low-pressure, local tournaments that involve more-basic playing of pinball. This is the point I'm making. As Clay pointed out... it's not a dig at high-level events and a condemnation of deep-ruleset pinball machines in tournaments. It's a question of whether or not just any type of pinball machine or tournament format works in such a way as to introduce NEW PEOPLE TO THE SPORT.

Let me illustrate what I mean with a specific real-world example that happened to us...

We were invited to bring some games to a local sci-fi convention and host a tournament. We brought a Dr. Who and a "Hotdoggin" (which we re-named "space-Hotdoggin'" in jest to make it jive with the sci-fi theme). We were hoping to introduce new people to pinball. The event was IFPA sanctioned, and as such attracted more serious competitors too. And the newbies who wanted to play Dr. Who in the tournament had no chance against the seasoned competitors who knew the ruleset and tricks to score big points. However, the early Bally solid-state game, ended up being an equalizer and one young guy who showed up to play did really well in the tournament, and has come back to compete more. The others who had their asses handed to them probably never played another game since. Had we used all modern games, none of the newbies would have had a chance.

Many tournaments I've seen have divisions just for this reason. You're placed in a division with people of your skill. I also know there are some tournaments where there are no divisions and you might want to avoid those.

Funny-ish story; I was at a launch party in Chicago and Josh Sharpe put me in the A division after my qualifying game. I gave him a hard time and told him I never played in a tournament. I had the second highest qualifying score and ultimately finished third. Lyman and Josh also played. But I still say they threw the games for us noobs. I had a great time and even if I didn't win it was good fun.

Thanks Doc...... I think the doctor ordered a stress free event without the tourney players..... it comes in May. He also reminded me for you to take your meds, as it is obvious youve skipped a few days. Look in the mirror before you claim someone is delusional, it seems your as short sighted as i am when it comes to your/my beliefs.

You can keep dancing around the points provided, no excuse for what ive seen in the past or had to deal with when my machines were brought home. But the fact remains, Clay doesnt have to provide a tourney to fill his hall nor do i EVER have to provide a tourney game for your personal abuse. Feel free to sign up and attend the showcase, you never know till you try something that doesnt completely cater to the likes of yourself.

Clay, thank you for sharing your collection with us.

Glad to have the opportunity to help in a small way to help you pull this off.

That's the way to do it. But also, I believe there are some games that are more-approachable for less-experienced players. The fact is, modern games are a lot more complicated. To score well on modern games requires more practice and inside knowledge of the game and ruleset -- so if you're looking to attract new people to the hobby, having more simple games is, IMO, better.

It's funny.. I watch those PAPA tournament videos on modern games, and maybe the producers don't realize, but unless you know the ruleset, it's hard to appreciate what the player is doing. The balls move so fast they often outpace the video frame-rate and you basically rely on a commentator to explain to you that the player did something good. Older machines, it's more fun to watch too... you can see there's one drop target left and everybody knows that's what needs to be hit, etc

Of course, many people who have unfettered access to the latest-and-greatest games will undoubtedly disagree. If I was speaking just for myself, I'd admit it's a lot more fun to have tournaments on modern games - but I am also in the position of trying to draw new people to the sport and create events that appeal to everybody, not just experienced, competitive players, and if the same 3 guys win every tournament (even if it's "division A" and the newbies win consolation "division C"), I feel I could do better and have failed in my objective of bringing new people into the hobby and making them feel like they have a chance of competing. Different divisions help. We're also going to introduce random team competition in our events too... but I still feel the most important thing I can do is try to pick types of games that give the largest array of people the greatest chance to progress based on the quintessential elements of pinball that I hold dear, which are raw flipper/ball-control skills with a twist of luck.

There were 2 in the tournament and 1 on the floor.

Actually I do see “Why those games are 'over there'” as a a typical problem, at least for the general public. I haven’t been to every show on the planet but the ones I have attended have had the "pay to play" tournament games roped off (and I do understand the reasons why this has to be).

I’m not a tournament player but I have done tournament scoring for many years mainly at Chicago Expo and MPE. A common issue has been that I have to shooo away people from the tournament games and answer the invariable question “Why can’t I play this game?” One particular example was when a very old gentleman with a walker and his 8 year old grandson shuffled into the MPE tournament area early one morning and started a game. I mean the guy must have been at least 85, and with his grandson in tow, they looked soooo pathetic. The tournament traffic was light so I let them play a couple of games. Boy, did I feel like a shit heel when I had to ask him to leave.

Would the tournament games still show up at the show if there was not a tournament? Probably not, at least not all of them.

The issue is the perception "John Q. Public" has with roped off games. They do not understand all the dynamics of a tournament and why the public cannot play the tournament games for free, even if they are available, they just see a game they want to play. Most pinheads understand and have come to accept that tournament games are off limits to free play.

Doug D.

After attending my first event, I can see why this format (limited attendance and all machines available to all people) is, in my opinion, the right way to go. After playing for 6 hours at MPE on Saturday, I appreciate the goal of having 1 ratio of machines to people. I was a bit bummed when I went to MPE and saw Tron, Addams Family, and a Star Trek LE in the row. I chose not to pay for the tournament... my choice, but it would have been great if they were available. I get it... it's the Disney Fast Pass mentality... pay a premium price, get a premium benefit. But, it still doesn't mean I wouldn't like to play those machines.

I said WHY - not that there was a separate set at all. The common thread I see here is those in Chicago/Michigan don't like how at those shows, the most desirable games in these people's opinions always end up 'out of reach' in the tournament bank. I call that a LOCALIZED problem - not an inherent problem with shows and tournaments.

And in PA - we always have the same exact issue with vendor's booths at York, Allentown, etc. Why do these guys setup right alongside the free play areas, but don't let anyone play their games? The problem isn't specific to tournaments and as you said, those games might not even be there otherwise. There is this attitude by some in this thread that tournaments TAKE THE GAMES AWAY. How their local show plays out is just that.. how their local show plays out.. not these reasons people are making up why tournaments are detriments to shows. It's "throwing the baby out with the bath water"

Expo was long known for it's format with 'the latest game' being the bank game. That doesn't mean that is how tournaments are ran everywhere. People are whining because distributors are bringing games and then opt to put them in the tournament. Funny, at the last two events I've been at Trent brought games (Metallica, AC/DC, Mustang) that were all NOT in the tournament banks. So when will people stop generalizing and realize that their beef is with a specific show... not the notion of tournaments.

I think cfh has something here. There was a pinball event here that was a tournament. All these pinball machines were brought and set up. If you were in the tournament, you could play if you paid whatever fees were required. I wanted to go and check out the machines and play a few games and enjoy the event. I didn't want to play in the tournament, because I'd just lose to the better players. I understand that they don't want the general public playing the tournament games and they need to keep things under control. I also know that they have a couple games set up for the public to play (except they have them on tournament settings with a payout to the high scores). Anyhow, seems like the only people who set up these events are the guys who will destroy you and take the money.

not to beat a dead horse with a stick..but that game (STARGAZER) is now over 3k. it was $1000- $1500 when we finished ifpa. there were at least 10 of us or so at ifpa that saw and played the game for the first time and commented we wanted one. then, we went to chicago expo in the fall and rush had his in the classics division, and once again more players played it for the first time and commented on wanting one. duncans at chicago expo many years ago I'm sure created interest although i don't know duncan and never saw it back then. First time i was aware of it was 2 years ago at ifpa in washington. ive also noticed all the "wanted" for stern meteor recently because if was in the pinburgh lineup playoffs. Every time players (me included) play a game in a tourney setting for the first time, if it seems like a great game and will likely appear in more tourneys, we search for them to practice on.
So, let me be right on this one . it happens, its done, it increases interest and demand and prices increase.
not everyone who buys games is an anal home collector who doesn't play and just stares at games and only worries about how a game looks...lol.
Next- i still have not seen anyone on here argue that clay should have a big tourney, all i have seen is players who play in tournaments defend themselves when certain stereotypes are mentioned. nothing to do with clays event. i agree clay doesn't need a tourney of any kind. people will go if they want to play nice games and many unseen games. clays games play great, his ems play like gold. its no secret. anyone in town or who does not mind traveling should go period. Unfortunately, i will be at the ifpa many events in colorado the only player from Michigan representing.
SO, i hope for the sake of our state, even though i'm a bad naughty tournament player, that you all will support me and wish me luck. I'm carrying michigan on my back for the state finals, world finals, world team championships and 2 or 3 other pre tournaments! only 3 people in the world period are playing in the state, world and team world ifpa championships and I am one of them..so be nice.

"I agree stargazer has been difficult and expensive for the last 5 years, largely thanks to Duncan's example at expo. Nothing to do with tourney play either."

Gangstarr isn't going or didn't make the cut?

First, in case you're reading this and you're not aware, I am one of the major people that run the MGC, so take this all with a grain of salt I guess. Only fair to have full disclosure.

With that, the one thing that I have to say is that I don't quite get the bashing on shows that a lot of people are doing on here. Clay, it's great you can do this and everything, but since you have all these games in one place throughout the year, you have a FAR different set up then other shows do, and that allows you to run things in a completely different manner. If the MGC had that, I could run things differently. I don't.

We try to provide with our show additional things to do so the lines aren't so deep, and if they are you always have options about what to do. In doing so, we provide things that a show like this one can't just because of logistics. And that's fine.

Every show has differences. But, I can honestly say that it's rather disheartening to hear people complain about shows "packing them in" when I'll be spending well over $100k to put on the MGC this year with no guarantee to make that back. Until someone that has pockets much deeper than I wishes to throw the show some money to happen, unless we attract more people than we did last year, we're going to be losing money this year. That's a fact.

Our goals when we started our show was to introduce as many types of gaming to as many different people as possible, and also educate and inform them about the history of gaming. Your goal is different. That doesn't make either of us wrong, it just makes us go at it from different standpoints.

Oh, and for the comment about the legality of the tournaments, I have worked with the city and state government for the past five years, including specifically running by every tournament and give away we are doing, and there are no issues.

A lot of people don't understand this. Through the years I've had my events attacked. That I dared to have games on coin play and call it a party. Or those that thought I should have more prizes, more divisions. Even from people supposedly promoting and supporting pinball.

And the attacks came from people who have never been in my business or have only been there a few times.

You have to run an event with what you have. And who will show up. You can't run an event with what someone else thinks should be best.

Thankfully we have so many people dedicated to putting on shows and events and tournaments and we have a variety to choose from.

When you go to one of these events, be sure and thank them for making it happen. They did the work, they took the financial risk. A kind word means a lot. A lot more than an unkind one.

LTG : )™

yours truly is he

I have a simple solution. Two words.

Tommy

Dollars

The agreeing parties (not affiliated with any organization or event management) agree to place x amount of an agreed upon denomination of $$$$ on the glass of any pinball game they deem fit for competition. Dollars are strategically placed to obscure the view of the game making each shot an interesting one. Flip a coin to decide order and with each player taking a turn until said dollars have been exhausted, aannnnnnd, the game commences. This way anyone who wants to, can compete for dinero and have a great time with any pinhead they choose to Tommy Dollar with. Any malfunctions/ rulings must be agreed upon by both parties or the funds of said game are returned to the original hands of the competitors to avoid any monetary strife.

Any dances, bragadocio and tom foolery must be accompanied by smiles and handshakes. Otherwise all winnings of the competition are forfeited to the Ninja...

Let the wild pin-rumpus begin!

Andy,

howareya? I didn't realize that you changed your handle. Good luck in Colorado. I always want a Michigander to win.

Bruce

Well said Lloyd. The producers of these events have to be able to sustain themselves. Everybody has different business models. If your business is repairing games and you have an amazing personal collection and lots of resources, your business model may be different from another collector, or an operator who needs to use a different means to generate money to cover time and expenses. It's not necessarily "better" as much as it's "different."