(Topic ID: 256890)

Bugs in early solid state games

By slochar

1 year ago


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  • 74 posts
  • 24 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 7 months ago by frenchmarky
  • Topic is favorited by 28 Pinsiders

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“Fix game bugs or leave alone?”

  • Fix 33 votes
    85%
  • Leave alone 6 votes
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There are 74 posts in this topic. You are on page 2 of 2.
#51 11 months ago
Quoted from slochar:

More Black Hole bugs..... really, system 80 bugs. If you have larger game roms the OS never tests rom 2. If there's an error in rom 1 but in the upper half of it, it reports it as rom2 bad, when in fact, it's still rom 1. (basically any game after Counterforce never checks the range $1400-$17FF, so you could have a bad gamerom 2 and the game will not report it)
Kind of a large oversight, but while the OS can expand in some ways, they really didn't design it out of the box for this. System 80a corrects this.

and thats why you don't solder your roms to your damn boards...

3 months later
#52 7 months ago
Quoted from slochar:

Alltek doesn't want anyone messing with the software on their board - it's just a regular eprom though. Weebly has all the versions and extra ram/romspace for customization. I think Alltek has the oliver version in it though.

I must not have payed attention when I tested it before because I was playing a two player game today and the count sounded wrong, then I tested it again to make sure. The EBD 'bonus bug' is still in the code on my Altek-equipped EBD. Previously earned racks on player 2/4 are still scoring 63K instead of the correct 56K (one extra bonus of 7000.)

#53 7 months ago

Some more general early Bally notes....

When reading from 5101, make sure you sanitize the lower nibble, don't assume it's going to be $F. Some games do this and while the original -35, -17, mpu 100 boards will read as $f in the lower nibble, mpu200, and possibly weebly/alltek boards, will not.

Eight Ball Deluxe and Kiss definitely do this that I've noticed so far. They do something like lda $20b, then cmp #$ff. Even in the same game there's also lda $20b, anda #$f0, cmpa #$f0 which is correct (or you could do lda $20b, ora #$0f, cmpa #$ff for the same results). So they were aware of it in their style/programming guide, just some slipped through the assumption way.

Mpu200 stern games have a funny one as well where they lda $39, lda $39 in a row. oops.... never corrected in the source for all the mpu200 pigs games.

#54 7 months ago
Quoted from frenchmarky:

I must not have payed attention when I tested it before because I was playing a two player game today and the count sounded wrong, then I tested it again to make sure. The EBD 'bonus bug' is still in the code on my Altek-equipped EBD. Previously earned racks on player 2/4 are still scoring 63K instead of the correct 56K (one extra bonus of 7000.)

Strange, I have an EBD with an Altek board (that I installed a LONG time ago) and do not have this bug. Though I definitely did have the bug with my original Bally board.

#55 7 months ago
Quoted from frisbez:

Alien Poker and Scorpion (and maybe other early Williams solid states) will lose game progress on a tilt.

For a regular tilt (plumb-bob)? Or a slam tilt? System 3-7 games, when they slam tilt, it does a full reset of the CPU akin to a power cycle. It's harsh but it's intentional.

#56 7 months ago
Quoted from mbeardsley:

Strange, I have an EBD with an Altek board (that I installed a LONG time ago) and do not have this bug. Though I definitely did have the bug with my original Bally board.

Mines only about 2 years old. The first time I tested it and believed the bug was gone, I must have forgotten the specifics of the bug and only tested the first full rack scoring at the end of the same ball with which it was completed (when it does score the rack correctly for 56K), not after subsequent ball drains when that rack it is then scored from storage via the '56K' lamp... and scores wrong as 63K.

#57 7 months ago
Quoted from frenchmarky:

Mines only about 2 years old. The first time I tested it and believed the bug was gone, I must have forgotten the specifics of the bug and only tested the first full rack scoring at the end of the same ball with which it was completed (when it does score the rack correctly for 56K), not after subsequent ball drains when that rack it is then scored from storage via the '56K' lamp... and scores wrong as 63K.

Yeah, I'm familiar with the bug...and I most definitely used to have it when I was running the original MPU. But I have not seen it since putting in the Altek (probably about 10 years ago).

#58 7 months ago
Quoted from mbeardsley:

Yeah, I'm familiar with the bug...and I most definitely used to have it when I was running the original MPU. But I have not seen it since putting in the Altek (probably about 10 years ago).

Can you take a look at your Altek board and see what the version # is on the rom chip? Mine is 9.1. Thanks

#59 7 months ago

If one of you is using the free play setting that could also make a difference

#60 7 months ago
Quoted from zacaj:

If one of you is using the free play setting that could also make a difference

I tried my Altek with the free play turned on and off, no effect on the pesky bonus bug, nothing I tried did. Now that I know the bug is still there I may end up just swapping the Altek into my Lightning, then put the Oliver roms into the Lightning mpu, I already have the Oliver roms from the EBD's previous old kaput mpu. Plus I'd get back the Oliver DELUXE feature back. Or I'll get a new Dash board for the EBD with the Oliver roms and keep the old Lightning board, I could use an extra working one for testing purposes anyway.

#61 7 months ago
Quoted from frenchmarky:

Can you take a look at your Altek board and see what the version # is on the rom chip? Mine is 9.1. Thanks

I will look for the version this evening...I do have free play enabled.

Quoted from frenchmarky:

Plus I'd get back the Oliver DELUXE feature back.

What is the Oliver DELUXE feature?

#62 7 months ago
Quoted from mbeardsley:

What is the Oliver DELUXE feature?

http://www.pinball4you.ch/okaegi/pro_soft.html

eight ball deluxe / 32 271007 freeplay:
if dip switch 25 = on and dip switch 26 = on freeplay is enable: decrease credits not lower then 01
bonus bug for player 2 and 4 fixed(from production rom)
If the 56K or 112K bonus holdover light is lit while the bonus is being scored, the game scores bonus for *9* balls for a total bonus count of 63K instead of 56K and 128K instead of 112K. This bug is fixed.
A new skillshoot is implemented:
1) When all the right horseshoes targets are down and the eight ball is hit, the deluxe targets are lit. (as production rom)
No deluxe target is flashing at the beginning.
2) After you hit any of the lit deluxe target, the flashing sequence starts. The next target deluxe is flashing. (For example if you hit de"L"uxe then the "U" is flashing).
3) If you hit a flashing deluxe target, then you get 15'000 point and the next deluxe target flashes. (In this case the "X").
4) If you hit a dark deluxe target, the deluxe target keeps flashing.
5) if you hit another lit deluxe target, the flashing stops.
6) When you hit the last flashing deluxe target, you score 550'000 points and you hear "eight ball deluxe".
New with version 28:
if you hit another lit deluxe target, we wait now two flashes, before the flashing stops.
If you hit the correct, flashing target during this time, the flashing sequence continue...
This should enable dual target hits...
New with version 32:
Credit display permanent on,
if dip switch 27 is on, "D" is flashing after the 8 ball target is hit.
if dip switch 27 is off, no target is flashing after the 8 ball target is hit.
the number of flashes for the entire deluxe bank after the eight ball is hit, is reduced to three tims
Installation notes:
read the file readxxx.txt file
create (based on your orignal roms) customs roms

Burn the two files on 2732 eprom
After power on you will see the version number in the player one display.

#63 7 months ago

Here are some pics of my Altek board inside my EBD-LE.

It shows a version for both the ROM and the CPU (?).

This is the ROM that came with it, and it hasn't been messed with since I installed it.

20210413_214917 (resized).jpg20210413_214929 (resized).jpg
#64 7 months ago
Quoted from mbeardsley:

Here are some pics of my Altek board inside my EBD-LE.
It shows a version for both the ROM and the CPU (?).
This is the ROM that came with it, and it hasn't been messed with since I installed it.
[quoted image][quoted image]

Yeah that's a much older one than mine for sure, discrete resistors/caps instead of SMDs, some different chips, different layout and still uses a battery pack. Actually I'm kind of surprised 'new' boards would have the EBD bug fix or any other bug fix. I'd think they would need to stick with the licensed code for each game. For buyers too, like "hey I want the original code, not some altered version." Though they did add the free play option which works via one of their own added DIP switches but I don't know if that means they had to actually make changes to each game's code or it functions some other way(?)

... Now I see the Weebly board does have both original and some custom game codes selectable on it including the Oliver EBD version.

#65 7 months ago

They are free play roms.

#66 7 months ago
Quoted from slochar:

They are free play roms.

What post are you referring to? What is "they" in this case?

#67 7 months ago

The freeplay option on alltek is a discrete rom within their combo rom, not some other freeplay scheme. So the "they" is the freeplay rom

#68 7 months ago
Quoted from slochar:

The freeplay option on alltek is a discrete rom within their combo rom, not some other freeplay scheme. So the "they" is the freeplay rom

Are you saying that they have dual copies of all the machines codes in the same ROM? And that selecting the "freeplay" setting switches between them?
Seems like it would be hard to fit all that in a single 8 meg ROM chip.

If that's the case, then maybe the bug is only fixed in the "free play" half, and not fixed in the "coin play" half.

#69 7 months ago
Quoted from mbeardsley:

Are you saying that they have dual copies of all the machines codes in the same ROM? And that selecting the "freeplay" setting switches between them?
Seems like it would be hard to fit all that in a single 8 meg ROM chip.

There's TONS of 'slack' space they could have eliminated many blank spaces that the 3x2716 games use (they allocate 4x2716 for those). The discussion I had with Dave at Alltek 10+ years ago about this was a way to add in the stern freeplay roms as well, but he was out of space. If you take the eprom out of your board and read it in, then split it up into 2k and 4k chunks and run a romident program on it you will get where each romset is and what it is (if the romident can ID it - IIRC some of the freeplay variants were 'recognized' ones so no idea where they came from)

I think there's just dual copies of the system roms (which is where the freeplay would go anyway, except for possibly the -17 games, those are likely in the game rom) - it's not a 1 to 1 map like the weebly board has to the game dip selection bank, it goes into a PLD to decode which games are from which area. (earlier revisions might have been different).

There's definitely a lot of duplicated roms within the eprom though, there's only so much you can do with the PLD device I'd guess given inputs and outputs. Looks from the mapping of the actual roms within the eprom that it's operating on a 4k chunk. Didn't look much farther into it as Alltek boards are useless for my purposes. (custom rom=voided warranty)

edit, now that I look at my spreadsheet again, there's a lot of duplicated system roms as well. https://sites.google.com/site/allentownpinball/galaxy-asm/alltek%20rom%20map.xls?attredirects=0&d=1 if you want to look at the locations in rom/duplicates.

#70 7 months ago
Quoted from mbeardsley:

Here are some pics of my Altek board inside my EBD-LE.
It shows a version for both the ROM and the CPU (?).
This is the ROM that came with it, and it hasn't been messed with since I installed it.
[quoted image][quoted image]

Get those DARN Duracell batteries off your board!!!!!
They are the worst in batteries.
If it rots like hell, it's Duracell....

I would have thought Altek may have learned from the past Bally boards (or Williams).

#71 7 months ago
Quoted from mbeardsley:

If that's the case, then maybe the bug is only fixed in the "free play" half, and not fixed in the "coin play" half.

The free play DIP on your early Altek appears to be 'on', I guess you could try turning it off and see if the bug comes back. Had no effect on the EBD bug in my newer one either way though.

#72 7 months ago
Quoted from slochar:

More Black Hole bugs..... really, system 80 bugs. If you have larger game roms the OS never tests rom 2. If there's an error in rom 1 but in the upper half of it, it reports it as rom2 bad, when in fact, it's still rom 1. (basically any game after Counterforce never checks the range $1400-$17FF, so you could have a bad gamerom 2 and the game will not report it)

Also the BH bug where if a ball's first score is other than via one of the upper three rollovers (or the rollover switch hit does not register), it usually goes off track on the next ball and the rest of the game it thinks it's got multiple players and the wrong displays are lighting up etc.

#73 7 months ago
Quoted from frenchmarky:

Also the BH bug where if a ball's first score is other than via one of the upper three rollovers (or the rollover switch hit does not register), it usually goes off track on the next ball and the rest of the game it thinks it's got multiple players and the wrong displays are lighting up etc.

I tested that and it didn't happen on v4. Maybe just a v2 thing.

You can get the score to advance wonky to non-playing players if the trough switches are off, but not in relation to anything on the playfield/hit first. But there should be a check in the beginning of a ball if the current player score location is > # of players obviously something would be off. Probably occurs partially because players 5 and 6 are used for bonus displays in some games.

#74 7 months ago
Quoted from slochar:

I tested that and it didn't happen on v4. Maybe just a v2 thing.
You can get the score to advance wonky to non-playing players if the trough switches are off, but not in relation to anything on the playfield/hit first. But there should be a check in the beginning of a ball if the current player score location is > # of players obviously something would be off. Probably occurs partially because players 5 and 6 are used for bonus displays in some games.

Yeah mines a v2, I didn't even know the bug existed until I had the glass off one day for testing some stuff and noticed when I manually scored things with the ball still sitting in the shooter, it would go bat crazy on the next ball.

There are 74 posts in this topic. You are on page 2 of 2.

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