(Topic ID: 312637)

BSD wont turn on - help appriecated

By marksf123

2 years ago


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  • 47 posts
  • 14 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 2 years ago by marksf123
  • Topic is favorited by 2 Pinsiders

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    #1 2 years ago

    All,

    When I turn my BSD on all I get are the GI lights. Sometimes when I leave it on for a while the playfield lights will kick and I hear a noise from the coils but that is it.

    Nothing works, I don't get a DMD image and the selector inside the coin door does not do anything. None of the coils or flashers work.

    I had the game apart for a while and changed out the playfield so obviously I did something.

    All the fuses look ok on inspection with a flashlight.

    I went through the manual and all the LEDs on the boards are working properly.

    I bought a new WPC CPU board and will try that but not sure if that is the issue if the LEDs are flashing properly. I bought the board as it was having some issues with the battery holding the settings before I took it apart.

    Any suggestions on where to start to troubleshoot or anyone know a Pinball tech in the Daytona/Ormond Beach area of FL?

    Thanks

    #2 2 years ago

    Try reseating your board ribbon cables and make sure they are not a row off

    #3 2 years ago
    Quoted from The_Pump_House:

    Try reseating your board ribbon cables and make sure they are not a row off

    I should of said that I tried that like 3 or 4 times now.

    #4 2 years ago

    Most of the time it just has the GI lights but here are some pics when all the lights were working. It looks nice so I am hopeful to get it playing again. I still need to finish a few things topside but was hopeful to get it going again before I tweak all the other fixes.

    IMG_1213 (resized).jpgIMG_1213 (resized).jpgIMG_1214 (resized).jpgIMG_1214 (resized).jpgIMG_1216 (resized).jpgIMG_1216 (resized).jpgIMG_1217 (resized).jpgIMG_1217 (resized).jpg
    #5 2 years ago

    Is that your c8?

    #6 2 years ago

    Yes - that is my C8.

    #7 2 years ago
    Quoted from marksf123:

    I bought a new WPC CPU board

    Pinball Basement board?

    Try reseating J101 and J114 power connectors on the big power driver board, and J210 on the CPU board. Any burning/discoloration on the J101 connector housing?

    #8 2 years ago

    Look at Pinwiki and check what the 3 x LEDs are doing on your MPU - they will tell you if it is booting or not.

    If the MPU doesn't boot nothing will work.

    #9 2 years ago
    Quoted from PinballManiac40:

    Try reseating J101 and J114 power connectors on the big power driver board, and J210 on the CPU board. Any burning/discoloration on the J101 connector housing?

    I reseated those connector and J101 housing looks clean. Still no change to the game.

    Quoted from pins4u:

    Look at Pinwiki and check what the 3 x LEDs are doing on your MPU - they will tell you if it is booting or not.

    I have previously read Pinwiki and all the LEDs are working properly.

    #10 2 years ago

    Time to see pictures of the thr boards with the game on.

    #11 2 years ago

    Some board pics...

    a few comments worth noting:

    Power Driver Board J120 connecter is broken and needs to be replaced. The backbox lights work for the part of the connector that is still good so I think they all will work once replaced.

    Power Driver Board J117 Black (ground) came out of the connector - I pushed it back in as best as possible.

    Audio Board J504 is not connected as the black wire fell out of the connector

    LEDs on the boards:
    Dot matrix controller board
    D10 - on

    Power Driver Board
    LED 1, 2, 4, 5, 6 & 7 - ON
    LED 3 off

    CPU Board
    at game turn on D19 & D21 on, D20 off
    quickly goes to D19 off, D20 flashing, D21 On

    Dont mind the tags (or my finger in that one pic) - I just used them to mark the connectors

    IMG_1220 (resized).jpegIMG_1220 (resized).jpegIMG_1221 (resized).jpegIMG_1221 (resized).jpegIMG_1222 (resized).jpegIMG_1222 (resized).jpegIMG_1223 (resized).jpegIMG_1223 (resized).jpegIMG_1224 (resized).jpegIMG_1224 (resized).jpegIMG_1225 (resized).jpegIMG_1225 (resized).jpeg
    #12 2 years ago
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    #13 2 years ago

    The pic above looks like D20 is out but it is flashing

    #14 2 years ago

    This is the same exact thing that happened to one of my games. I swapped out the main board and it powered right on. I put the old board back and the error was still there. So the issue is somewhere on the main board imo.

    Sorry I can't be more help than that.

    #15 2 years ago

    In your last picture, see that big black ASIC chip shaped like a square...? Give a soft but firm press in the middle and gently press around the edge of it. My JM acted up like this and that was the source.

    Another source could be the varistor within the power box (where the main switch is to fire up BSD). My CFTBL had a bad one, and I swapped it out. That was that.

    #16 2 years ago
    Quoted from marksf123:

    All the fuses look ok on inspection with a flashlight.

    This here. Start with the easy things first. I'm surprised noone have mentioned yet that a visual inspection of fuses is highly unreliable.

    You need to remove at least one end from the fuse holder and measure continuity with a multimeter. A fuse can look visually ok but still be broken. I wouldn't do anything else before knowing 100% that all fuses are fine.

    If fuses turn out ok, measure voltage at the different test points to see which pcb have problems.

    #17 2 years ago
    Quoted from Lhyrgoif:

    You need to remove at least one end from the fuse holder and measure continuity with a multimeter. A fuse can look visually ok but still be broken. I wouldn't do anything else before knowing 100% that all fuses are fine.

    Here is a pic of my multimeter. If someone tells me what setting I should set the dial and what reading I am looking for on the LED then I can check the fuses. I seem to be bad at knowing what setting to use but once someone explains to me I am usually fine.

    IMG_1231 (resized).jpegIMG_1231 (resized).jpeg
    #18 2 years ago

    Take the fuse out

    Set it to the continuity test at 5 o'clock -> |

    Touch each probe to each end of the fuse at the same time, if your meter beeps (or has that ability you will hear it buzz) you're good, if it doesnt have the beep you can also validate continuity by seeing a value on the meter.

    #19 2 years ago
    Quoted from marksf123:

    All the fuses look ok on inspection with a flashlight.

    first mistake, get a meter test them.

    #20 2 years ago

    Pretty sure that particular meter does not have an audible test. You'll need to set it to "200" at nearly the 6 O'clock position (that would be ohms measuring from 0 to 200 ohms). Anything above 50.0 or so indicates the fuse is bad.

    #21 2 years ago

    I think you seriously need to look carefully at your lack of electronic skills and employ someone to sort the problem out.

    Honestly, if you can't use a multimeter what hope do you seriously think you have finding a problem?

    It is so easy to cause hundreds of dollars damage without even realising it.

    Please search You-Tube for dozens of tutorials on using a multimeter because it isn't just about setting the meter, it is about how to interpret the results the meter gives you.

    #22 2 years ago
    Quoted from gjm7777:

    Set it to the continuity test at 5 o'clock

    That red area with the green symbol at 5 o'clock is a diode tester. He needs to put it at the 200 at the 6 o'clock position and look for either a 0 (good) or whatever that meter displays for infinite ohms.

    #23 2 years ago

    I'd seriously consider getting a different meter with an audible continuity test.

    #24 2 years ago
    Quoted from schudel5:

    That green symbol at 5 o'clock is a diode tester. He needs to put it at the 20 at the 6 o'clock position and look for either a 0 (good) or whatever that meter displays for infinite ohms.
    I'd seriously consider getting a different meter with an audible continuity test.

    Yep I was totally wrong on that, my bad OP.
    For some reason I thought that was the continuity setting.

    10
    #25 2 years ago
    Quoted from pins4u:

    I think you seriously need to look carefully at your lack of electronic skills and employ someone to sort the problem out.
    Honestly, if you can't use a multimeter what hope do you seriously think you have finding a problem?
    It is so easy to cause hundreds of dollars damage without even realising it.
    Please search You-Tube for dozens of tutorials on using a multimeter because it isn't just about setting the meter, it is about how to interpret the results the meter gives you.

    Or.....we could help him learn and diagnose issues and help empower him moving forward.

    #26 2 years ago
    Quoted from gjm7777:

    Yep I was totally wrong on that, my bad OP.
    For some reason I thought that was the continuity setting.

    No worries, I appreciate everyone's help. I have replaced 3 playfields (IJ, AFM & MB) and only had small issues that I was able to solve myself. I ended up moving for work when this game was apart and it had to go into storage, then I lost interest in restoring games (this game has been apart for years). I retired now and decided to try to put it back together. When I was in San Diego I had a great repair guy but I have tried to find someone close to me here in Florida but to no avail. If I don't get it to work I will probably sell it as a project game as I need the space anyways. I am sure someone will get it to work and will want it with it's new playfield, ramps, plastic, decals etc.

    #27 2 years ago
    Quoted from NPO:

    Or.....we could help him learn and diagnose issues and help empower him moving forward.

    Thanks - if people want to help, then I will listen. If folks don't want to help that is fine too. You guys won't put me in the soup line if I blow something up in the game. I know to turn the game off before I start touching stuff. I am still looking for a tech but in the meantime I will press forward and see what I can do.

    #28 2 years ago

    Since all the LEDs are lit that supposed to be, that tells me there are no blown fuses. Just because the LEDs are lit, doesn't mean these are all good voltages.

    The 5 volts is very important to measure as to know if the game is not booting up because the voltage is too low. Set your meter to the 20VDC setting and wedge your black lead under the ground braid wire at the bottom of the backbox. Turn the game on. Then you have one free hand to measure the 5volt test point on the driver board at TP2 and then also measure at C31 + side marked by the arrow. Normally, should only see a slight 0.03V difference between these 2 points. Can you post what you see on both measurements? I hope you see at least 4.94v at C31. pasted_image (resized).pngpasted_image (resized).png

    So when you say D20 on the CPU board is blinking, is it blinking about every half a second?

    Is this only after it has been on a while? Is that when it goes into attract mode? These symptoms usually are a sign of a low 5 volts.

    #29 2 years ago

    So I am afraid that I do see some battery alkaline (not acid) damage on the CPU board. Even though there is damage here, this very likely would not cause the game to boot as it is not a severe case of damage. At worse from what I see here is that you would have some switches not working. But the board still will need to be repaired properly.

    pasted_image (resized).pngpasted_image (resized).png

    Is the new CPU board from Pinball Basement? If so, I'm afraid I would not put that in at this time as their quality has not been great so far. I hate to put that into the mix right now.

    It is best to get the game booting and playing before deciding what to do with this original CPU board.

    #30 2 years ago
    Quoted from PinballManiac40:

    Set your meter to the 20VDC setting ....

    OP, the DC voltage setting is the one with a "V" and two horizontal, parallel lines - one will be solid and the other will be dotted. Do not put it on the "V" with a single wavy line next to it. That is "AC" voltage and rarely used in a machine for diagnosis.

    #31 2 years ago
    Quoted from PinballManiac40:

    The 5 volts is very important to measure as to know if the game is not booting up because the voltage is too low.

    I will check that later today and let you know.

    Quoted from PinballManiac40:

    Is the new CPU board from Pinball Basement?

    I bought the NVRAM version of this one... I think it is being delivered today.

    https://www.thepinballwizard.net/rottendog-circuit-boards-a/williams-wpc89-mpu-board-mpu089/

    Quoted from NPO:

    OP, the DC voltage setting is the one with a "V" and two horizontal, parallel lines

    Got it

    #32 2 years ago
    Quoted from PinballManiac40:

    So when you say D20 on the CPU board is blinking, is it blinking about every half a second?

    When I turn the game the CPU Board responds as follows
    D19 & D21 on, D20 off
    quickly goes to D19 off, D20 flashing, D21 On

    D20 flashes very fast, I would say faster than every half second.

    When I turn the game on the GI lights come on in the playfield and the backbox. If I just leave it on, after a few minutes or so the insert lights come on and the game goes into attract mode. Also when it kicks into attract mode some of the coils fire for a few seconds like the slings etc but then stop.

    #33 2 years ago
    Quoted from marksf123:

    When I turn the game the CPU Board responds as follows
    D19 & D21 on, D20 off
    quickly goes to D19 off, D20 flashing, D21 On
    D20 flashes very fast, I would say faster than every half second.
    When I turn the game on the GI lights come on in the playfield and the backbox. If I just leave it on, after a few minutes or so the insert lights come on and the game goes into attract mode. Also when it kicks into attract mode some of the coils fire for a few seconds like the slings etc but then stop.

    Try to unplug your sound board and then power on.

    #34 2 years ago

    Can you post what you see on both measurements? I hope you see at least 4.94v at C31.

    I am seeing

    4.54 @ C31
    4.57 @ T2

    #35 2 years ago
    Quoted from marksf123:

    When I turn the game the CPU Board responds as follows
    D19 & D21 on, D20 off
    quickly goes to D19 off, D20 flashing, D21 On
    D20 flashes very fast, I would say faster than every half second.
    When I turn the game on the GI lights come on in the playfield and the backbox. If I just leave it on, after a few minutes or so the insert lights come on and the game goes into attract mode. Also when it kicks into attract mode some of the coils fire for a few seconds like the slings etc but then stop.

    So the first part sounds like the MPU booted up.

    Try these things..
    Measure the 5 volts on the Driver and CPU boards, as previously mentioned
    With the game off, press on all the IC socketed parts on the CPU board and reseat all the ribbon cables at all the connections.
    Try the game again.

    #36 2 years ago

    I just missed posting my previous statement before seeing your 5 colt measurement.

    Quoted from marksf123:

    Can you post what you see on both measurements? I hope you see at least 4.94v at C31.
    I am seeing
    4.54 @ C31
    4.57 @ T2

    Wow. That is too low. Can you retest them again after reseating J101?

    If it is still low, I believe BR2 bridge rectifier needs to be changed on the driver board.

    #37 2 years ago

    I reset J101 the retested and still had the same answer. I also tried to disconnect the sound board.

    #38 2 years ago

    Just easier to remove J114 on.the left side of the driver board and retest TP2. If any board is loading down 5volts, that will tell you.

    Have another driver board you can test in the game? At least you will be able to test the rest of the game.

    #39 2 years ago
    Quoted from PinballManiac40:

    Just easier to remove J114 on.the left side of the driver board and retest TP2. If any board is loading down 5volts, that will tell you.
    Have another driver board you can test in the game? At least you will be able to test the rest of the game.

    If I remove J114 the test results @ TP2 remain the same.

    I dont have another Power Driver Board.

    #40 2 years ago
    Quoted from marksf123:

    If I remove J114 the test results @ TP2 remain the same.
    I dont have another Power Driver Board.

    Time to gave the board repaired. Anyone you know works on boards and can change BR2, C2, C7 and the other capacitor above F101 to F105?

    #41 2 years ago

    I did get the new CPU board but I will hold off installing it until folks say it is ok. I have changed out boards before and have an ASIC puller so no worries there...

    IMG_1234 (resized).jpegIMG_1234 (resized).jpeg
    #42 2 years ago

    Yeah, I would definitely hold out on.the CPU board swap until the game boots with a good 5volts. That way you can tell there was a problem with any of the parts you may had transferred over to the new CPU board.

    Makes things easier to identify an issue taking small steps.

    #43 2 years ago

    The two position ribbon from the MPU to the DMD controller is backwards. The red stripe position on the ribbon should match the other ribbon that connects from MPU to FlipTronics to Sound to DMD controller.

    Flip that ribbon and let’s see what happens.

    Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
    Http://chrishiblerpinball.com/contact
    http://www.PinWiki.com/ - The new place for pinball repair info

    #44 2 years ago
    Quoted from PinballManiac40:

    Time to gave the board repaired. Anyone you know works on boards and can change BR2, C2, C7 and the other capacitor above F101 to F105?

    PinballManiac40 i think you might mean BR2 (maybe), C2, C4, and C5, right?

    Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
    Http://chrishiblerpinball.com/contact
    http://www.PinWiki.com/ - The new place for pinball repair info

    #45 2 years ago
    Quoted from ChrisHibler:

    The two position ribbon from the MPU to the DMD controller is backwards. The red stripe position on the ribbon should match the other ribbon that connects from MPU to FlipTronics to Sound to DMD controller.
    Flip that ribbon and let’s see what happens.

    I saw that too, but it looks like the ribbon is plugged in backward on both ends, which won't cause a problem.

    It's still good advice... plug the darned cables in right!

    The tiny '2' on the display board is an indication for the stripe side of the cable should be on the top. On the CPU your stripe should be to the left to match the other cable.

    #46 2 years ago
    Quoted from PinRetail:

    I saw that too, but it looks like the ribbon is plugged in backward on both ends, which won't cause a problem.
    It's still good advice... plug the darned cables in right!
    The tiny '2' on the display board is an indication for the stripe side of the cable should be on the top. On the CPU your stripe should be to the left to match the other cable.

    Yep. You are right.
    Oops.

    C5 and C11 look a little "domed" to me.
    C5 doesn't dome usually.
    But C11 can dome if coil and flasher connectors are misplaced.
    --
    Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
    http://www.ChrisHiblerPinball.com/Contact
    http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

    #47 2 years ago
    Quoted from PinRetail:

    I saw that too, but it looks like the ribbon is plugged in backward on both ends, which won't cause a problem.
    It's still good advice... plug the darned cables in right!

    OK - thanks, I reversed the cable and plugged it in right. I think it has been backwards since I got the game as I don't think I removed the ribbon cables. I did read the manual about the stripe when I was checking and reseating the cables and still got it wrong but I missed the marking for pins 1 and 2 on the board and even in the manual. I see it now.....

    I did change it around but still have the same game results.

    Quoted from ChrisHibler:

    But C11 can dome if coil and flasher connectors are misplaced.

    I can disconnect all the connectors from under the game or remove some from the boards if you think that will help isolate the problem.

    As always, apprieciate everyone help.

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