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(Topic ID: 239184)

BSD Row 4 Ground Closed


By smcclain65

1 year ago



Topic Stats

  • 46 posts
  • 5 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 1 year ago by PinballManiac40
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

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#1 1 year ago

I need some help BSD owners. Long post ahead, I will try to keep it quick.

Decided to replace all lights on BSD and add the LED's to the speaker box. First added backbox and speaker mod and played a few games.

Next raised the playfield and replaced most inserts and played a few games. Next took off the castle ramp all the way around and replaced some GI lights then finished with raising the playfield and replacing more GI and flashers.

I think this is where the problem occurred as I heard all of the switches go off while the playfield was in the air. I finished replacing the bulbs and put the playfield down and had a message to check F114 and F115 Fuse. F114 was blown and I replaced it.

When powered on I got a ground closed message for ROW 4. Row 4 includes the plumb tilt, the launch button, castle lock opto and ramp, and trough balls. I double checked all of those things to no success.

I unplugged the speaker mod cable(which was no issue before) and the Ground error went away but then as I was testing switches all was good but it would not load the balls so I still think there is an issue and then it went haywire and now it will not let me enter the diagnostic mode when powered on. It just goes shows that bookkeeping totals have cleared.

Any suggestion of where to look now. Sorry for the long post.

#2 1 year ago

I know this is like when your wife tells you you should have turned back there, but don't work on a game with the power on. Bad for you, bad for the game, bad for your wallet.

Likely shorted GI voltage to switch matrix. Likely took out U18 or 19 on the MPU. Google "Switch Matrix Troubleshooting (or problem). Try this:

https://pinballrehab.com/1-articles/solid-state-repair/repair-guides/146-switch-matrix-theory-and-troubleshooting

#3 1 year ago

Thank you for the heads up, I will start with that troubleshooting guide.

#4 1 year ago

So I double checked the switches and turned it back on and still would not go into diagnostics.

So I lifted the play field and it immediately went to test mode and let me enter diagnostics so there was definitely a short somewhere.

The closed error no longer shows up. However when testing the start button, launch button, and trough switch non of them fire although showing open.

Anyone with a suggestions of what may be the problem with those switches. I don’t think that all three are bad and I traced all the wires back for obvious breaks or shorts and did not see any.

#5 1 year ago

The game won’t start because it doesn’t register any balls because the rough switch never fires.

#6 1 year ago

What are the switch numbers (from the switch matrix) for the switches that don't work?

3 weeks later
#7 1 year ago
Quoted from JoeGrenuk:

What are the switch numbers (from the switch matrix) for the switches that don't work?

Thanks for checking in, I forgot to check back on this thread. I no longer have a ground row closed error but instead when going into the switches. I get no closed errors and all show open and working except everything that was on that row.

The switches that are on that row are the castle opto, the trough balls, the start button, and launch ball. I can manually fire the trough, the start button, and the launch ball button and they do not show closed when pressed in the switch test. They still show open.

Everything else seems to fire correctly, because the trough will not load a ball it is constantly searching for balls and will not start a game. I am certain i fried something on the switch matrix for row two. After I got the ground closed message, I started investigating all of those switches on that row and it looks like a solder joint was pressed down between the metal frame and launch ball button, I moved this and no longer get the ground closed error but the switches don't fire.

Any suggestions of what to check will be great. I am almost ready to have someone come look at it for 150 an hour but If I can determine the issue myself I can get a new board or send mine out for repair for much less. I somehow lost my multimeter and will be picking one up tonight. Does anyone have any suggestions of a good/cheap multimeter and where to start checking.

Thank you

#8 1 year ago

The cheapest multimeter I know of is the buy something, get a multimeter free at Harbor Freight. You will need a coupon, though.

Since the switches are not registering, I would look at the wires that control the strobe or the strobe return - it sounds like that would be the common problem. You might try reseating the connectors that look at the switches and the switch return signals, especially if the connectors are original.

#9 1 year ago
Quoted from Billc479:

The cheapest multimeter I know of is the buy something, get a multimeter free at Harbor Freight. You will need a coupon, though.
Since the switches are not registering, I would look at the wires that control the strobe or the strobe return - it sounds like that would be the common problem. You might try reseating the connectors that look at the switches and the switch return signals, especially if the connectors are original.

Thanks for the reply. I was thinking about grabbing the one from harbor freight. I think I will do that and test the switches tonight.

#10 1 year ago
Quoted from Billc479:

The cheapest multimeter I know of is the buy something, get a multimeter free at Harbor Freight. You will need a coupon, though.
Since the switches are not registering, I would look at the wires that control the strobe or the strobe return - it sounds like that would be the common problem. You might try reseating the connectors that look at the switches and the switch return signals, especially if the connectors are original.

Do you know where the Strobe and Strobe return are. I am going to google it but I was just curious if you knew off the top of your head. Should I just check those for voltage?

#11 1 year ago

Nothing really turned up in a google search.

#12 1 year ago

OK - Looking closer at the schematic, your issues are not tied to just one column or row. Try reseating J207 and J209.

I've been working on Bally machines lately, and was thinking about that when I responded. I'm not sure if these have the same type of polling system to check switch closures.

With power off, do one at a time, and check to see if the problem clears up after each reseating. Inother words, narrow it down to one connector instead of two.

#13 1 year ago

Post a picture of the big power driver board with the game on. Interested in seeing if all the LEDs are lit that should be.

#14 1 year ago
Quoted from Billc479:

OK - Looking closer at the schematic, your issues are not tied to just one column or row. Try reseating J207 and J209.
I've been working on Bally machines lately, and was thinking about that when I responded. I'm not sure if these have the same type of polling system to check switch closures.
With power off, do one at a time, and check to see if the problem clears up after each reseating. Inother words, narrow it down to one connector instead of two.

I will try this tonight and will reply back with what I found. What I was also going to do is pull J207 and J209 and use a jumper to see if the switch closes to eliminate any issues with the board. I will let you know what I come up with.

Thank you

#15 1 year ago
Quoted from PinballManiac40:

Post a picture of the big power driver board with the game on. Interested in seeing if all the LEDs are lit that should be.

I will get a picture tonight of the power driver board and post it.

Thank you for the help.

#16 1 year ago

A picture below the battery holder would help too in case the switch matrix is shorted one of the parts. Occasionally, you can see a damaged parts, sometimes not.

#17 1 year ago

So I did the jumper test on j206 and j208 and did not get any switches reading on the switch edge test. This made me realize that no switches registered on the switch edge test when I pressed them. Only flippers and dedicated switches such as the menu buttons. No switches on the play field work at all.

All coil tests work fine. I took the cpu board out and it is an aftermarket rottendog with sockets for most of the chips. I do not see anything obviously wrong with the board at all. It was new in 2015. I have pictures below of the board removed.

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#18 1 year ago

Have a picture of the driver board with the game on? You don't need the MPU in the game for that picture.

#19 1 year ago

Shoot. Yes. I took a pic of that too.

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#20 1 year ago

The second light is flashing on the mou just caught it off when I took a pic which the manual said is normal. Led1 and led 6 are off which I believe is normal and indicates voltage.

#21 1 year ago

According to the LEDs, you should have all the voltages, but should be sure they are in spec.
Do you have 12v at TP3 on the driver board?

#22 1 year ago
Quoted from PinballManiac40:

According to the LEDs, you should have all the voltages, but should be sure they are in spec.
Do you have 12v at TP3 on the driver board?

I seen that as a check to do from the pinwiki. But I am having a hard time finding TP3. I am assuming I place the black lead on a grounded braid somewhere and touch TP3 but i am not sure where it is.

Thank you for all the help.

#23 1 year ago

I was just able to zoom in on the picture that I posted and see point TP3. I could not see it with my naked eye. I will check this point for 12V. If it does have 12V, what would be the next check.

If it doesn't would that indicate loss of ground somewhere?

#24 1 year ago

If the voltage is good, then I suspect your MPU has an issue. Any spare board to try?

#25 1 year ago
Quoted from PinballManiac40:

If the voltage is good, then I suspect your MPU has an issue. Any spare board to try?

I do not have a spare board to try unfortunately but if the voltage is good at Tp3 I will just buy a new board. I am not seeing in visible damage at all on the board and looks to be in great shape. All traces look good so it may be a chip blown. Most of the chips are in sockets and are removable.

#26 1 year ago

So i have the board from rottendog that has the sockets for the chips in case they blow. I am not opposed to buying a new board but does anyone know how to pull the chips from that board. I have done the google and nothing really turns up, half my job is googling so I feel like I am decent at it and I am just not finding anything.

#27 1 year ago

Which chip are you trying to pull? For the ASIC chip (The square one), there's a special tool. However, if you really think the MPU is bad, contact Rottendog and see if they will test the board. May save you a lot of headache.

#28 1 year ago
Quoted from Billc479:

Which chip are you trying to pull? For the ASIC chip (The square one), there's a special tool. However, if you really think the MPU is bad, contact Rottendog and see if they will test the board. May save you a lot of headache.

None of them look bad just by visual inspection. I am not sure if any are bad, I was going to stop by my local electronics store tonight and see if we can test it out. I looked like they are sockets and not soldered on so I figured if one of them was bad there should be a way to pull it and replace it with a new one.

I am going to test TP3 for 12V when I get home. If I am getting 12V there then I am assuming its the board.

#29 1 year ago
Quoted from PinballManiac40:

If the voltage is good, then I suspect your MPU has an issue. Any spare board to try?

If I do not get voltage at Tp3, what would be the next steps?

#30 1 year ago

Usually, if the switch matrix gets shorted, it affects U20, the ULN2803 part. I see it is in an IC socket so should be easy to swap. Maybe you can get one from a pinball friend? If not that part, it can get more intense of a repair.

#31 1 year ago

You shouldn't need to buy another board, even if you can't fix it yourself. Rottendog has a lifetime free repair (minus shipping back and forth), but hard to say how long it would be out of your possession

chrishibler would be able to get if fixed quickly and he would even install a NVRAM so you can get rid of those batteries too.

#32 1 year ago

I am actually in St. Louis and thought about letting him look at it.

I popped off the board and the U20 was fried. I replaced that and now have all switches. Which lasted only for a bit. I went into switch edge and the start button and slam tilt were not closing.

Shut it off and lifted the play field and now I am getting slam tilt switche closed which I looked at the slam tilt and it is open as far as I can tell. I cannot go into the menu because the slam tilt closed message.

When I turn it on it immediately goes to slam after the testing.

I feel like it could be a short somewhere but I have traced all wires from the slam tilt and don’t see anything.

I also tested TP3 and get perfect 12 volts on the power board.

#33 1 year ago

I think it may be a deeper issue on the MPU. May want to take the 7 opto board (mounted under the playfield) with you just in case the MPU checks out.

#34 1 year ago

I looked at both opto boards under the play field and they both have led1 lit. I am assuming that is good. I also inspected and do not noice any chips blown.

Still had the slam tilt issue. I powered off and unplugged the tilt and powered back on. The message was cleared and I was able to go into the menu. Then the start button fired by itself and then slam without the switch plugged in. I am thinking a short in the wire that has the slam tilt and start button or a switch matrix issue. The board looked great after I changed the U20.

Any other suggestions.

1 week later
#35 1 year ago

So it seems like I cannot get anyone to come out and look at my BSD. I have called/emailed 3 repair guys in the St. Louis area and none of them returned my calls. The next step is to pull the MPU and both optos and look at them a little closer with the guy at Gateway Electronics.

If anyone sees this from St. Louis and has any recommendation for someone to help locally please let me know. I am in conveniently located in Weldon Spring.

Thank you

#37 1 year ago
Quoted from PinballManiac40:

chrishibler can help?

I figure that is who I am going to send my boards to after I get them If i do not see anything obviously wrong with them.

#38 1 year ago
Quoted from smcclain65:

I figure that is who I am going to send my boards to after I get them If i do not see anything obviously wrong with them.

Google maps seems to show he is about 30 minutes away. Looks like a personal visit with the boards could be in order. Chris will even install NVRAM on the MPU, if you want.

#39 1 year ago
Quoted from PinballManiac40:

Google maps seems to show he is about 30 minutes away. Looks like a personal visit with the boards could be in order. Chris will even install NVRAM on the MPU, if you want.

Holy shit. I wouldnt even debate that. My boards would be in the car and on the way. 30 mins?????? We should all be so lucky.

#40 1 year ago
Quoted from NPO:

Holy shit. I wouldnt even debate that. My boards would be in the car and on the way. 30 mins?????? We should all be so lucky.

I think he still wants you to mail it to him even though your close.

#41 1 year ago

I did take the smaller opto off first and immediately seen there was a capacitor that got knocked loose from the board. This could be the culprit. I am going to solder in a new one and see if that is the issue.

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#42 1 year ago

I replaced the 24 opto board and still have the slam tilt issue.

An interesting thing is while the board is out I can enter diagnostics and do not have any random switch closes. I thought that indicated the board was bad. As soon as I power on with the board on the start button and slam tilt randomly kick off and I can not enter diagnostics.

Does anyone have any other suggestions?

2 weeks later
#43 1 year ago

I wanted to update this post just in case anyone else has an issue similar to mine.

The culprit was the U20 chip on the MPU. Not just the chip itself but the socket on the MPU. When i replaced the Chip, I did not have a lot of light, and certainly no overhead light and the socket looked to be in great shape. However, the metal pins and plastic close to the board were melted and I did not see the damage.

I took the board to Chris Hibler, he looked at and seen the damage almost immediately and took a few minutes to fix. Long story short, if you fry your U20 chip make sure to check the socket.

All is good, fresh wax and new balls and the game plays great. LEDs look great and set my personal best of about 440 million. Getting closer to that billion.

#44 1 year ago

Chris installed NVRAM for you too?

#45 1 year ago
Quoted from PinballManiac40:

Chris installed NVRAM for you too?

Yes, got the NVRAM installed and is great. But a question that maybe you guys can answer. The scores are being kept but the time and date are not being kept once it is powered off which makes the credit dot always be there unless I go in and set the time and date. Is the only solution to plug back in the battery box.

#46 1 year ago
Quoted from smcclain65:

the time and date are not being kept once it is powered off which makes the credit dot always be there unless I go in and set the time and date.

Setting the date and time and then resetting the game through the menu should save it. I never had any issues and I had installed over 200 NVRAM. BSD only uses the date and time as a clock for display only. It can be disabled not to be shown.

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